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[TheyCallMeAndy]

11 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

You mean like all those years we complained about Cody Ford…. I think it’s quite clear what we have in at least some of these guys such as Gabe Davis and AJE… 

Broken clocks are right twice a day. What did having Cody Ford on the roster for 3 years actually hurt? He was a backup for most of that and you can do worse for a backup.
 

Fans write guys off fast, these days nearly instantly. Coaches know what they saw in their scouting process and believe in their developmental process. 

 

The fact so many here think a Gabe Davis, Terrel Bernard, Boogie Basham, or AJ Epenesa can’t improve in year 4 or year 5 and become steady contributors is just hilarious. These guys aren’t an Aaron Maybin who can’t see the field or Mike Williams who clearly just wanted to get paid. These are guys putting in the work and trying to master their craft.
 

AJE actually had a rock solid season last year but it’s written off because he wasn’t that way in year one and two. 

[wppete]

11 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Not because of this signing, but Lions are up and coming. Hard not to like what they're doing over there. 

Yup. lions and the Bears are building something. Impressive to see. 

[mjt328]

13 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Broken clocks are right twice a day. What did having Cody Ford on the roster for 3 years actually hurt? He was a backup for most of that and you can do worse for a backup.
 

Fans write guys off fast, these days nearly instantly. Coaches know what they saw in their scouting process and believe in their developmental process. 

 

The fact so many here think a Gabe Davis, Terrel Bernard, Boogie Basham, or AJ Epenesa can’t improve in year 4 or year 5 and become steady contributors is just hilarious. These guys aren’t an Aaron Maybin who can’t see the field or Mike Williams who clearly just wanted to get paid. These are guys putting in the work and trying to master their craft.
 

AJE actually had a rock solid season last year but it’s written off because he wasn’t that way in year one and two. 

 

This is one of the problems with Brandon Beane's drafting style.  He seems to always go for projects and guys who develop slowly.

If a guy takes 4-5 years to turn into a steady contributor, you have pretty much wasted the value of their rookie contract.  Until that point, they are basically a liability and using up a roster spot.

 

When Von Miller went down, this team NEEDED to get production from some combination of Ed Oliver, AJ Epenesa, Greg Rousseau and Boogie Basham.  But apparently none of them were ready for that.

 

In the case of Oliver, the Bills are now stuck in the same position as they were with Tremaine Edmunds.  You have a guy who has shown flashes of strong play, but done it inconsistently.  They can't give him an extension, because he really hasn't earned it.  But if he finally "breaks-out" in Year 5, we will be forced into letting him walk in free agency for a big contract.

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

37 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

This is one of the problems with Brandon Beane's drafting style.  He seems to always go for projects and guys who develop slowly.

If a guy takes 4-5 years to turn into a steady contributor, you have pretty much wasted the value of their rookie contract.  Until that point, they are basically a liability and using up a roster spot.

 

When Von Miller went down, this team NEEDED to get production from some combination of Ed Oliver, AJ Epenesa, Greg Rousseau and Boogie Basham.  But apparently none of them were ready for that.

 

In the case of Oliver, the Bills are now stuck in the same position as they were with Tremaine Edmunds.  You have a guy who has shown flashes of strong play, but done it inconsistently.  They can't give him an extension, because he really hasn't earned it.  But if he finally "breaks-out" in Year 5, we will be forced into letting him walk in free agency for a big contract.

 

The problem is we see things from Bills POV only. No one here is watching and following other teams trials and errors to the degree we follow the Bills. So we sit here and say “man, we can’t draft, man, we can’t coach. Everyone else can” when the truth is the things we get frustrated on that we think are Bills-only are actually common issues around the NFL. The only “bad picks” I can think of where the value of scouting reports from NFL.com didn’t match up is Terrel Bernard. Every other pick Beane made was right in line with where they were projected to go. 
 

Epenesa actually did step up when Avon went down, his numbers and split’s showed that. Groot wasn’t the same after that high ankle sprain, the data supports that was well. 
 

Nearly every single rookie who gets drafted is a “project,” go look at all those 1st and 2nd round picks who media and fan scouts called day 1 starters who haven’t really contributed yet for one reason or another.
 

This isn’t a Bills thing, this is and NFL thing. 

And yes, Bean drafted the 285 pound AJ Espenesa and 280 pound Boogie Basham want wanted them both to play at 270 which really added a weird wrinkle into their development.

 

If AJ Espenesa posts the same stat line next year and he did this past year and makes improvements in his consistency, then he is a successful and productive 2nd round pick who probably gets a big contract.

 

If Gabe Davis with a new coach can post 10% increase in catch rate and cut down on his drops, you have a fantastic #2 WR who still can probably be a low end #1.

[Low Positive]

4 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

The problem is we see things from Bills POV only. No one here is watching and following other teams trials and errors to the degree we follow the Bills. So we sit here and say “man, we can’t draft, man, we can’t coach. Everyone else can” when the truth is the things we get frustrated on that we think are Bills-only are actually common issues around the NFL. The only “bad picks” I can think of where the value of scouting reports from NFL.com didn’t match up is Terrel Bernard. Every other pick Beane made was right in line with where they were projected to go. 
 

Epenesa actually did step up when Avon went down, his numbers and split’s showed that. Groot wasn’t the same after that high ankle sprain, the data supports that was well. 
 

Nearly every single rookie who gets drafted is a “project,” go look at all those 1st and 2nd round picks who media and fan scouts called day 1 starters who haven’t really contributed yet for one reason or another.
 

This isn’t a Bills thing, this is and NFL thing. 

This is so true. I wrote a post back in January where I went and looked at multiple mocks from the Beane just to get a consensus of where guys that we drafted were predicted to go in terms of range. Bernard was the only reach, and that was only by a round. Nothing like BB reaching for Cole Strange.

[Scott7975]

29 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Gabe’s issue go well beyond the drops but if you want to convince yourself that he will make for a fantastic number 2 WR next year after three straight years of the same results be my guest… hopefully Brandon Beane knows better. 

It’s weird. This past season it looked like he could only run two or three routes. With Daboll he played both out and slot and ran a bunch of routes. Another reason I’m not sold on Dorsey yet and I wasn’t even a guy that liked Daboll all that much. 
 

I think Davis is good and worth keeping but we need a 1b and better pass blocking. As well as I think a better playbook. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Scott7975

[TheyCallMeAndy]

52 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Guys like AJE and Gabe already are steady contributors… my point is basically doubling down on them to improve is bad business… more so in Gabes case where the team relied on him to be a reliable #2 receiver and came up with inconsistent results.(basically Gabes career to this point) Simply saying “well we think he will improve” and not bringing in legitimate competition is a mistake. 

Isn’t giving up on guys in their developmental process is even worse business? Last season was the first year we didn’t bring in legitimate competition for Gabe and he struggled. Staff is quick to point out the high ankle sprain, but his mental game was off. Davis wasn’t a disaster last season, he showed real promise and the good was very good. 
 

If the average development timeline is 3 seasons, then teams on average only really get one season, on average, from a pick before their contract is up. That’s why rookie contracts are cheap, on average the first 2 years the player is either a liability or wildly inconsistent. 

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

 

If the average development timeline is 3 seasons, then teams on average only really get one season, on average, from a pick before their contract is up. That’s why rookie contracts are cheap, on average the first 2 years the player is either a liability or wildly inconsistent. 

 

I'm not sure this is applicable to certain positions any longer. 

 

You're expecting to get legit contribution Year One from a Day 1 or Day 2 WR.   Early Day 3 guys like Gabe and Shakir, the timeline can be a bit longer.  

[TheyCallMeAndy]

39 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Gabe’s issue go well beyond the drops but if you want to convince yourself that he will make for a fantastic number 2 WR next year after three straight years of the same results be my guest… hopefully Brandon Beane knows better. 

And I think you’re fooling yourself if you think Gabe can’t be a legitimate #2. Drops aren’t Gabe’s only issue, but they are unquestionably the biggest. Cole Beasley couldn’t run the whole route tree effectively, you’d never send him on a go route and expect good results because of his athletic limitations, but he had a decade long career because he rarely dropped passes.

 

If the coaches can help Gabe get over the drops, they’ll put him in a spot to be successful because as long as you can catch the ball, every other limitation is workable.

[TheWeatherMan]

1 hour ago, wppete said:

Yup. lions and the Bears are building something. Impressive to see. 

Neither have a QB capable of winning a SB.  Until they do I’m not impressed.

[MiltonWaddams]

9 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Neither have a QB capable of winning a SB.  Until they do I’m not impressed.

I did see the Baltimore ravens win two Super Bowls with guys I never expected to win, so I wouldn’t count out Jared Goff just yet.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

20 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

It’s weird. This past season it looked like he could only run two or three routes. With Daboll he played both out and slot and ran a bunch of routes. Another reason I’m not sold on Dorsey yet and I wasn’t even a guy that liked Daboll all that much. 
 

I think Davis is good and worth keeping but we need a 1b and better pass blocking. As well as I think a better playbook. 

Keep in mind Davis put on 10-15 pounds in the offseason (this was documented) then had to play with a high ankle sprain. I’d be willing to bet his fundamentals and mechanics took a big step back last year. 

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

35 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

It’s weird. This past season it looked like he could only run two or three routes. With Daboll he played both out and slot and ran a bunch of routes. Another reason I’m not sold on Dorsey yet and I wasn’t even a guy that liked Daboll all that much. 
 

I think Davis is good and worth keeping but we need a 1b and better pass blocking. As well as I think a better playbook. 

One of the cornerbacks gabe faced last year said something along the lines of gabe is easy to cover cause he  runs only 2 routes. Anyone else hear this?

[cle23]

21 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Neither have a QB capable of winning a SB.  Until they do I’m not impressed.

 

Fields is 2 years in and was decent last year.  Goff has been to the SB.  Neither are superstars, but it's way too early to say they can't especially Fields.

[nucci]

28 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Neither have a QB capable of winning a SB.  Until they do I’m not impressed.

How do you know this? Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl

[papazoid]

17 minutes ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

One of the cornerbacks gabe faced last year said something along the lines of gabe is easy to cover cause he  runs only 2 routes. Anyone else hear this?

 

patrick peterson

 

"I was on Gabe Davis, and I could show you in my notes the routes that Gabe Davis runs: posts, digs, slants occasionally. ... Buffalo's concept is the red zone is laser, meaning they use the No. 2 receiver as a clear-out guy running to the opposite pylon and the No. 1 receiver is running a dig. They also love to run a double-post, that's quarters-beater, and that's what we were in. Going back to my film study, I knew he was an in-breaking receiver, he showed that all game. ... It's crunch time, if he runs this route, I am going to go pick this ball off.  Ask [Bills cornerback] Tre'Davious White. I said to him standing on the sideline, 'Tre if they come to this side, I am going to pick this off.' They ran the laser concept. ... Josh thought he had it, and Josh is a guy who trusts his arm strength."

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/vikings-patrick-peterson-called-his-game-winning-ot-interception-of-josh-allen-i-am-going-to-go-pick-this/

[TheyCallMeAndy]

31 minutes ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

One of the cornerbacks gabe faced last year said something along the lines of gabe is easy to cover cause he  runs only 2 routes. Anyone else hear this?

Yes it was Patrick Peterson. Cole Beasley just said Davis is a top 5 #2. 
 

2021 Davis seemed to run many routes, and well. Peterson’s comments surprised me. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

19 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Keep in mind Davis always has a high ankle sprain😅… dude hurt his ankle every year. 

He did, that’s not an opinion it’s a fact. That is typically a 4 week injury, I don’t recall him missing more than 2 games. 
 

Look, I’ve been VERY vocal about replacing Gabe Davis. His 2022 was not good. Bills seem to agree this John Brown being pulled from retirement and OBJ dinner. I am team WR at 27. 
 

With all Davis issues last year, I believe every single one is correctable. Davis absolutely can be a stud #2 and push to be a #1 here or elsewhere. I hope a new WR coach can help him get out of the rut he is in and become the player he has shown flashes of being. 

[papazoid]

 patrick peterson on gabe davis....."Going back to my film study, I knew he was an in-breaking receiver, he showed that all game."

 

my goodness....why do you allow yourself to be predictable......poor coaching

[BillsFan2313]

5 minutes ago, papazoid said:

 patrick peterson on gabe davis....."Going back to my film study, I knew he was an in-breaking receiver, he showed that all game."

 

my goodness....why do you allow yourself to be predictable......poor coaching

 

Didn't we drop 30 on the Vikings, with Gabe getting almost 100 and TD in that game?