Stadium Renderings Part 2

[Breakout Squad]

11 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

 

Looks like a bedpan, very uninspired 

I like the design but I did think that too. I’m guessing it has to do with the wind reduction and canopy. 

[Just Jack]

9 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

For the engineers out there, when they realize in 15 years they made a massive mistake not putting a roof on.... how hard would it be to just add a functioning roof to the stadium?  Was there any thought to that option in the design?  

 

If I was designing the stadium, I would include extra structure so if they want to add a cover over the middle, it could be done easier than starting from scratch. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Just Jack said:

 

If I was designing the stadium, I would include extra structure so if they want to add a cover over the middle, it could be done easier than starting from scratch. 

I’m not saying they aren’t considering it. The point is that if you don’t build that load into the original calculations, you can pretty much kiss it goodbye down the road. Buildings aren’t typically designed with that much extra structure in them. 

[machine gun kelly]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

How do you know that?  I personally would jump at season tickets even if they were double what they were now if I knew I was getting the same comfortable indoor weather every game.  I'm not paying for seasons with the possibility of being cold and miserable when I can be just miserable watching from home.

You’re an N of 1.  The Pegulas did multiple studies and the cost of living and avg income doesn’t support your wish, and besides, You can’t get a dome.

 

case closed.  It’s being reopened no matter how much anyone whines.

 

 

[cba fan]

13 hours ago, Einstein said:

That comparison makes no sense.

 

My money pays to see the movie that I chose. I didn’t pay for the building and then pay for the movie on top of it.

your money pays for all operational cost of the theater. Movie building operation ins labor etc etc.... It is part of the ticket price. I managed a theatre for years and was involved in all.

13 hours ago, Einstein said:

PSL’s only go the stadium. That’s why they exist. They were invented to pay for stadium building. They do not go into owners pockets.

PSL's are the property of the entity who negotiates the ownership of the PSL monies. Usually, the owners own the PSL revenue, like Pegs owns this upcoming PSL monies per negotiations. Oakland the team also owned the PSL money and kept it. Then the timeline of PSL ownership expired and fans had to pony up again. Ravens owners kept all the PSL money for their new stadium when they moved from Cleveland. Rams and Chargers PSL money goes directly to Rams owner Kroenke and after 30 years it is all paid back to PSL owners without interest. It is assumed Kroenke puts it into the stadium build cost but that is up to him. His RE deals around the stadium is paying for the stadium so he does not need to put the PSL money in. It is his money. Kroenke also owns the stadium w 100% private financing, so PSL is all his money regardless of what he does with it. The list goes on.

13 hours ago, Einstein said:

Nope. That is NYS tax money. If it didn’t go toward the stadium, it would be earmarked for something else. The fact that it’s going toward the stadium means that taxpayers are paying for the full amount of whatever that Seneca money would have went to. Either way, taxpayers pay for it.

Yes if Seneca money does not go to stadium it will go to NYC for some other project. Yes taxpayers have paid it but state compact recouped it for taxpayers. recouping some of the gambling losses mostly paid by WNY gamblers. Best use is to spend it in WNY. win win after a lot gambling loss loss.

 

but my 50%+ est of Pegs paying counts this casino money as taxpayer contribution and nulls your point.

13 hours ago, Einstein said:

Pegs will end up paying around 10-15% of the total cost out of pocket.

here are the hard numbers you did not follow properly: Hochul announced a stadium agreement in March: of the $1.4bn, Erie County will contribute $250m, the NFL and Bills $550m and New York state will provide $600m.(from old Seneca nations payments recently litigated)That totals $850m.  Pegs contribution to start is 300 mill w additional 250 mill from NFL(which is Pegs money too and only comes due to Bills paying into stadium fund for decades and another use it ot lose it deal) and 50 mill pegs must pay for Highmark demo.(which likely will cost more and Pegs must pay) Total 600 mill.+ Pegs also responsible for all cost overruns so he will pay over 50% of total when it is done.                                            County already stated their contribution will not raise property taxes or any services taxes. State money coming from Seneca that would otherwise be spent in NYC not WNY. This is a big win for WNY, Buffalo, Orchard Park, Erie County, all residents, taxpayers, Seneca gambling losers, NFL, Bills, and Pegs. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by cba fan

[cba fan]

13 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

So someone mentioned this earlier…what do you believe the ‘majority would’ve wanted’? And…Did that manifest itself in the results of the survey the Bills took? I remember many wanting an open air venue. Please know that I don’t have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that some on here are personally disappointed because what they ‘wanted’ isn’t happening. Unfortunately that’s going to happen with these sorts of projects. You can’t please everyone. I just wish people would let it play itself out. The architectural firm is very talented. Let them do their jobs. 

all polls and the Bills survey showed majority wanted a roof. Bills only would say after the survey (that they refused to give actual results of) that it showed "there was not an overwhelming outcry for a dome" 

 

read between the lines. Bills wanted a large majority to want a dome before they would seriously consider it, not just the simple majority which the survey showed wanted a dome.

Edited March 1, 2023 by cba fan

[mrags]

5 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

A lot of fans are going to be priced out.  It'll be interesting to see what the new set of attendees looks like generally speaking.  

 

They've already told us what to expect for pricing.  When the upper deck (non-corner) seats will be over $200 before PSLs and possibly even taxes, essentially the "cheap seats," people are going to be priced out.  

 

The forecast pricing in the new arrangement was greater than the aftermarket pricing this season, generally speaking.  I kept an eye on that for reference purposes.  

 

Of all my concerns, that's my biggest, what it's going to do to our fan base as such.  I see a lot of forthcoming consternation by fans over the new pricing structure, particularly given the public monies involved.  

 

Based on the renderings, the tailgating experience is also going to drastically change.  

 

 

 

This is 100% exactly what the Bills, NFL, City, and ownership wants. No more ultra boozing in the parking lots before games. They want responsible adults going to games. Spending big money on concessions and merchandise. The people that think the atmosphere and tailgating scene are going to be the same are out of their minds. 
 

which I’m fine with personally. We look like idiots on a national level. 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

This is 100% exactly what the Bills, NFL, City, and ownership wants. No more ultra boozing in the parking lots before games. They want responsible adults going to games. Spending big money on concessions and merchandise. The people that think the atmosphere and tailgating scene are going to be the same are out of their minds. 
 

which I’m fine with personally. We look like idiots on a national level. 

I don't doubt that you're at least partially right, but they don't need to build a new stadium to get that result. If that's what the goal is, couldn't they just significantly raise ticket prices in the existing stadium and parking lots?

[mrags]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I don't doubt that you're at least partially right, but they don't need to build a new stadium to get that result. If that's what the goal is, couldn't they just significantly raise ticket prices in the existing stadium and parking lots?

That’s correct. But they needed a new stadium. Just happens to be 2 items in the lost at once. And in fact they can blame the new stadium on pricing people out and not take so much heat for it. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

your money pays for all operational cost of the theater. Movie building operation ins labor etc etc.... It is part of the ticket price. I managed a theatre for years and was involved in all.

 

Yes. Your movie ticket purchase is analogous to your game ticket purchase.

 

The movie theater doesn't ask you to pay for the building whether you go to movies or not, then pay to enter the building, and then pay for the movie ticket itself.

 

The comparison is just not even remotely close.

 

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

Usually, the owners own the PSL revenue, like Pegs owns this upcoming PSL monies per negotiations.

 

PSL's are for stadium recouping costs. “PSLs have always been intended by the NFL to be a funding mechanism for stadium construction or renovation” Stadium attorney Daniel Etna 

 

and... "All the PSL money is used for construction on a stadium" - Pegula Vice President Ron Raccuia

 

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

 

Oakland the team also owned the PSL money and kept it.

 

 

The Oakland PSL's also go the stadium. "The PSLs.... are supposed to help the city of Oakland and Alameda County repay the $200 million cost to expand the stadium, now known as McAfee Coliseum."

 

Then when they moved to Vegas, the PSL's also go the stadium: "The additional money from personal seating licenses has allowed the team to add additional features to the stadium, more suites, a field-level club, and enhanced internet connections for fans."

 

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

Ravens owners kept all the PSL money for their new stadium when they moved from Cleveland.

 

This is flat out not true.

 

"The PSL money can only be used to cover the team's expenses moving out of Cleveland."

 "Not one dime (of PSL money) will go to the Modell family." - Art Modell

 

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

Rams and Chargers PSL money goes directly to Rams owner Kroenke and after 30 years it is all paid back to PSL owners without interest.

 

No, that PSL money is going back to the NFL under the g4 loan Kroenke signed to borrow the billion dollars. 

 

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

Kroenke also owns the stadium w 100% private financing, so PSL is all his money regardless of what he does with it.

 

 

No he doesn't! He took out a $1 billion dollar g4 loan from the NFL.

 

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

 

The list goes on.

 

Your list has all been wrong!

 

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

 

but my 50%+ est of Pegs paying counts this casino money as taxpayer contribution and nulls your point.

here are the hard numbers you did not follow properly: Hochul announced a stadium agreement in March: of the $1.4bn, Erie County will contribute $250m, the NFL and Bills $550m and New York state will provide $600m.(from old Seneca nations payments recently litigated)That totals $850m.  Pegs contribution to start is 300 mill w additional 250 mill from NFL

 

You keep ignoring the fact that the Tpegs contribution is being negated by the PSL's. It's not coming from his pocket. It is not coming from ticket sales.

 

It is coming from PSL's that exist only to pay off stadium debt. That is not money coming out of Tpegs wallet. That is money coming from the fans. 

 

- The fans pay for the taxpayer part of the stadium

- The fans pay for the PSL's

- The fans pay for the tickets

 

The actual cash coming from Terry's pocket - irrespective of fans - is about 10%!

 

For example: Let's say I build a roller-skating rink for $100,000. And let's say $60,000 of that comes from taxpayers in the area. And $30,000 comes via a loan that stipulates that it will be paid off via the sale of PSL's that charge other people the right to buy tickets to my rink. How much came form my pocket?

 

The Buffalo news broke this down nicely:

 

"While the Buffalo Bills owners agreed to pay $550 million toward the cost of a new stadium in Orchard Park, that doesn’t mean the Pegulas will be dipping into their own pockets for all of it."

 

 

Pegula's actual expenditure on this stadium will probably be in the 10% to 15% range.

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

This is 100% exactly what the Bills, NFL, City, and ownership wants. No more ultra boozing in the parking lots before games. They want responsible adults going to games. Spending big money on concessions and merchandise. The people that think the atmosphere and tailgating scene are going to be the same are out of their minds. 
 

which I’m fine with personally. We look like idiots on a national level. 

 

I agree, I did not by any stretch mean to suggest that I prefer all of the drunkenness etc.  

 

I will say though that I'm one of those that will be priced out, and I know quite a few people that will be as well, and we simply go and have a great time tailgating with no drunkenness in sight.  Some drinking, of course, but nothing that would catch anyone's attention.  

 

Also, on principle, I will never pay for a PSL in my life, I don't care what it is.  

 

IDK, perhaps that is a good thing then.  It'll price me out tho, even if only on principle if business improves.  I'm simply not paying $2k to bring my family of four to a game, nor am I going to pay $500 for myself to attend a game unless it's a huge one, and that'll be a lot more than that.  I'm also not sitting in the corners of the upper decks to watch a game, I'd rather watch it from Bar Bill or elsewhere, and what will the secondary market be like.  

 

I only see the stuff that I see in youtube videos or in articles.  We have our own TG parties and they're decent, no drunkards.  But then trying to reconcile all of the drunk people wandering around inside and outside the stadium, I guess they partied somewhere.  LOL  

 

Kenny's a good dude, but he seems to be ready to let that go.  That seems to have gotten out of hand as well.  It seems as if newer fans have to try to out-do the former fans in that way, instead of simply enjoying what's there.  I think his gig end with the new stadium if not sooner.  

 

I guess the question that remains is how many of those "undesireable" attendees and those that they come with are there and how many tickets do they buy.  

 

Seemingly it all comes down to partying responsibly.  We had some phenominal parties back during the playoff years in the '90s, big ones.  But I don't ever recall anyone getting out-of-control drunk, and the parties were fun, even in the cold weather.  It seems as if it's gotten worse.  Perhaps it's age, and I also don't go nearly as often as I used to living out of town and all coupled with the distant onine streaming options.  

 

Again, perhaps it's a good thing, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure that Buffalo/WNY has the fan base for that.  We're not a huge economically booming region, quite the opposite in fact.  Based on the poll put up recently asking who's going to continue to be STHs, the response isn't even over a third.  Some saying wait to see what the damage is, but the damage was put out there by the team, fans didn't like it.  It may not be exact, but we can count on it being about that.  As I've said numerous times, the prices were greater than secondary market prices in general this season.  People are complaining about a 12% increase now, well they're about to double or so in the new stadium.  Put another way, that's a 100%-ish increase, plus PSLs which people are planning on financing. 

 

Some people buy with the intent of reselling games that they don't go to, but good luck with that in the post-Allen era, which could conceiveably end before the new stadium even opens its doors.  Allen apparently has a contract out option after '25.  I don't see people getting even face value for tickets under that scenario.  And what are we going to do for an encore post-Allen.  LOL  

 

Not sure I see the demand for seasons under that entire scenario.  Do you?  

 

 

11 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yes. Your movie ticket purchase is analogous to your game ticket purchase.

 

The movie theater doesn't ask you to pay for the building whether you go to movies or not, then pay to enter the building, and then pay for the movie ticket itself.

 

The comparison is just not even remotely close.

 

 

PSL's are for stadium recouping costs. “PSLs have always been intended by the NFL to be a funding mechanism for stadium construction or renovation” Stadium attorney Daniel Etna 

 

and... "All the PSL money is used for construction on a stadium" - Pegula Vice President Ron Raccuia

 

 

 

The Oakland PSL's also go the stadium. "The PSLs.... are supposed to help the city of Oakland and Alameda County repay the $200 million cost to expand the stadium, now known as McAfee Coliseum."

 

Then when they moved to Vegas, the PSL's also go the stadium: "The additional money from personal seating licenses has allowed the team to add additional features to the stadium, more suites, a field-level club, and enhanced internet connections for fans."

 

 

This is flat out not true.

 

"The PSL money can only be used to cover the team's expenses moving out of Cleveland."

 "Not one dime (of PSL money) will go to the Modell family." - Art Modell

 

 

No, that PSL money is going back to the NFL under the g4 loan Kroenke signed to borrow the billion dollars. 

 

 

No he doesn't! He took out a $1 billion dollar g4 loan from the NFL.

 

 

Your list has all been wrong!

 

 

You keep ignoring the fact that the Tpegs contribution is being negated by the PSL's. It's not coming from his pocket. It is not coming from ticket sales.

 

It is coming from PSL's that exist only to pay off stadium debt. That is not money coming out of Tpegs wallet. That is money coming from the fans. 

 

- The fans pay for the taxpayer part of the stadium

- The fans pay for the PSL's

- The fans pay for the tickets

 

The actual cash coming from Terry's pocket - irrespective of fans - is about 10%!

 

For example: Let's say I build a roller-skating rink for $100,000. And let's say $60,000 of that comes from taxpayers in the area. And $30,000 comes via a loan that stipulates that it will be paid off via the sale of PSL's that charge other people the right to buy tickets to my rink. How much came form my pocket?

 

The Buffalo news broke this down nicely:

 

"While the Buffalo Bills owners agreed to pay $550 million toward the cost of a new stadium in Orchard Park, that doesn’t mean the Pegulas will be dipping into their own pockets for all of it."

 

 

Pegula's actual expenditure on this stadium will probably be in the 10% to 15% range.

 

 

Also keep in mind that if fans do not renew, then the team gets to charge PSLs again.  So those PSLs are not one-time PSLs, they get to charge them every time someone dumps their seasons and another person buys them.  

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by PBF81

[Bob Jones]

12 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

I am very sincere. The fact that we have an owner who is building us a brand new stadium to the tune of $1.4B should make all of us happy. Why is this thread full of admonishments and lament? I’m almost embarrassed to be a Bills after reading through some of this drivel, we should all be posting gratitude statements.

You do realize that the Pegulas will likely end up only paying for about 10-15% of the cost, right? Also, they are so rich that they could have foot the bill for a dome and it would be like any of us spending $100 on a fancy meal. But they're hoarding their billions. 🙄

[teef]

did you guys hear that there may not be a dome?

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, teef said:

did you guys hear that there may not be a dome?

Don’t you work or something? People are having real conversations about the topic and you just can’t give it up. 

[teef]

Just now, mrags said:

Don’t you work or something? People are having real conversations about the topic and you just can’t give it up. 

lol!  you still angry?  how late at night were you all red faced and typing away?  this obviously bothers you.  you're letting a stadium that you have zero control over you cause you stress.  that's not healthy.  why don't you take a break champ?  you'll probably feel less stressed, and that is not good for your blood pressure.

[mrags]

Just now, teef said:

lol!  you still angry?  how late at night were you all red faced and typing away?  this obviously bothers you.  you're letting a stadium that you have zero control over you cause you stress.  that's not healthy.  why don't you take a break champ?  you'll probably feel less stressed, and that is not good for your blood pressure.

Again. Not providing any real information to the topic. Just talking about other posters. Typical 20 something in mommy’s basement. 

[teef]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Again. Not providing any real information to the topic. Just talking about other posters. Typical 20 something in mommy’s basement. 

i gave my impression like you did that's all.  it bothers you because it's pretty evident the internet bothers you.  you try with these jabs, but you don't realize how foolish you come off.  

 

for example, you ask me if i have a job!  sure i do.  i even own my own business.  yet you were the one posting until what, 3am?  here you are, all angry and bitter again, posting away/  what do you do for work?

 

on top of that, ,i don't think you understand the rich irony of calling someone a beaten down girlfriend.  you desperately tried to use it as an insult, when you didn't realize at all you were describing yourself!  let me cry about how this team is wronging me, yet i'll give them thousands whenever they ask!!!  see now?

 

take a back seat.  you're out of your league.

[Draconator]

This is turning into the teef and mrags point/counterpoint hour. 

 

I'll just pour a vodka and tea and watch the festivities. 

 

Oh, and this. 

 

[teef]

2 minutes ago, Draconator said:

This is turning into the teef and mrags point/counterpoint hour. 

 

I'll just pour a vodka and tea and watch the festivities. 

 

Oh, and this. 

 

i love that you drink so early.

[Figster]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not saying they aren’t considering it. The point is that if you don’t build that load into the original calculations, you can pretty much kiss it goodbye down the road. Buildings aren’t typically designed with that much extra structure in them. 

My thought is If the stadium was designed more like a sphere thats cut off at the top at a certain point you will keep more snow out and may not have to deal with it at all from an accumulation standpoint. Big Skylights around the top of the sphere. Easier to go Dome in the future. To me the current roof and opening design may allow for to much snow accumulation into the interior. Blowing around in blizzard conditions and going places that are harder to remove vs falling more downward IMO.  Snow goes sideways allot in Orchard Park.

 

  

 

  

Edited March 1, 2023 by Figster