Ghost of BiB Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 My intention wasn't to comment on Amnesty's claim, nor was it to defend PTR. My point was that these threads are becoming pretty damn predictable. He knew he was going to get flamed, yet posted anyway. All these threads end up the same. 344379[/snapback] Actually, some actually prompt some intelligent discourse before they fall into the sewer. Rare moments-but it happens. I'm still waiting for PTR's examples of lies and misdeeds. Guess we forgot about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Should be easy to predict the responses from the right in this thread. "You're not in the military/government/defense department, so you don't know what you're talking about." "What Saddam did to his people is far worse than anything we've ever done." "I can't believe you would defend those animals, you commie/liberal scumbag." "Amnesty International has an anti-US agenda." "This is the kind of crap that shows why the left will lose another election. Support the troops, my ass." "These animals are terrorists, and therefore don't fall under Geneva convention rules." "These animals are trained to say they are being tortured if captrured." Anybody got any others to add? Which one's am I forgetting? 344355[/snapback] Beats the liberal mindset of "Maybe if we're nice to the terrorists then they'll be nice to us." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Beats the liberal mindset of "Maybe if we're nice to the terrorists then they'll be nice to us." 344385[/snapback] When the last child cries for a crust of bread, when the last man dies for just words that he said, when there's shelter over the poorest heads, we shall be free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050525/ap_on_..._amnesty_report So we have become the same as those "empires of evil" we used to fight. I'm sure to be flamed for this, especially by people who say 9/11 gives us the right to do anything we want to anyone. I just think it's very sad. One thing is for sure...no one in the rest of the world sees the USA as the defenders of justice and liberty anymore. PTR 344343[/snapback] No, it sure isn't America anymore. Not when we have so many idiots running around looking for an excuse to side with terrorists over our own country and our own troops. I can't even begin to imagine what kind of nonsense your ilk would have come up with during WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 And, as far as it goes...WTF cares? Don't run around with an AK, blowing stuff up and you won't be there. Go scrape a 4 year old kid off the pavement with a shovel, then cry about the poor abused whoevers. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 My intention wasn't to comment on Amnesty's claim, nor was it to defend PTR. My point was that these threads are becoming pretty damn predictable. He knew he was going to get flamed, yet posted anyway. All these threads end up the same. 344379[/snapback] Then do something about it, try and foster debate in a new direction or something. If you tired of eating pissy wheaties, stop eating them. If you're going to keep eating them then stop bitching about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 For good reason. The left just can't grasp that huge government will abuse its power. Nature of the beast, yet they continue to clamor for it when it involves their pet programs and rail against it when it's not something they're directly for. 344383[/snapback] While I pretty much agree with you, I agree with their stance that the Koran should not be abused- which from my understanding, it wasn't abused. It a perfect world, we could just be nice to the terrorists, and they would stop....unfortunately, the world is not perfect, and sometimes we have to get them before they get us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philburger1 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Last night I was reading specific incidents of prisoner abuse at Guantanamo Bay. One of the claims were MPs were throwing nerf footballs at the detainees. Let me tell you, my heart really goes out to them on that one. 344360[/snapback] Those can poke someone's eye if they hit you just right. If the U.S. is become such an EVIL PLACE why didn't we just carpet bomb the hell out places like Fallujuah(spelling?). Instead, we drag it out weeks, so we don't chip paint on a mosque that is being used to launch mortars. In World War II, we bombed the hell out of German and Japanese cities. And that was considered a Moral War. Now we hit terrorist in the head with nerf footballs and take funny pictures of them, and we are the bad guys. Any reports on the killing of aid workers killed in the middle east? You know, those evil people from sinister groups like "Doctors without Borders"? That has been going on for 20 years. No reports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 While I pretty much agree with you, I agree with their stance that the Koran should not be abused- which from my understanding, it wasn't abused. It a perfect world, we could just be nice to the terrorists, and they would stop....unfortunately, the world is not perfect, and sometimes we have to get them before they get us 344400[/snapback] It would have a whole lot more merit if they didn't regularly do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I'm still waiting for PTR's examples of lies and misdeeds. Guess we forgot about that one. 344384[/snapback] ...or more like, it is easier to just make ridiculous statements in hopes that people will blindly believe them. No need to actually back them up with facts.* I am still waiting on the "Iraq never had WMD's" thingy from him. Just remember, facts are irrelevant when you have an agenda. *MoveOn.org rule #7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I'm not defending terrorists. I'm not defending anything that they did that got them sent to Gitmo. Let's just assume that every single one of the detainees there is the worst of the worst. Every single one of them deserves to be there. 1. What is the USA's obligation to hold itself to a higher set of standards than how these people, and how other people/governments treat their own prisoners, or their own people, or innocent civilians? People on this board are very quick to shoot down the "They do it, so it's OK for us to do it" arguement in other debates...why should it apply here? 2. Does the use of "torture" (not very easily defined if you really think about it) actually lead to usefull intelligence (historically), or are they just giving up anything that pops into their heads to stop the torture. Has torture/prisoner abuse ever been a usefull tool? 3. Is there any reason to believe that prisoner abuse/torture/whatever may actually have a negative impact on how the US is viewed globally? If we are to believe that the Bush foreign policy plans for the mid-east include the spread of Democracy and Freedom, how does any prisoner abuse, justified in the eyes of the US or not, help to spread these ideals? Extra credit if you leave "Who the !@#$ cares" out of your response. Lastly, anyone who thinks that the "Liberal" mantra is "Be nice to the TERRORISTS, and they will be nice to us" is a complete idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I'm not defending terrorists. I'm not defending anything that they did that got them sent to Gitmo. Let's just assume that every single one of the detainees there is the worst of the worst. Every single one of them deserves to be there. 1. What is the USA's obligation to hold itself to a higher set of standards than how these people, and how other people/governments treat their own prisoners, or their own people, or innocent civilians? People on this board are very quick to shoot down the "They do it, so it's OK for us to do it" arguement in other debates...why should it apply here? My take? I don't see any obligation whatsoever. In other threads here, I give my opinion as to the circumstances for the when and why. 2. Does the use of "torture" (not very easily defined if you really think about it) actually lead to usefull intelligence (historically), or are they just giving up anything that pops into their heads to stop the torture. Has torture/prisoner abuse ever been a usefull tool? To extract information? You betcha. I do not agree with torture or abuse for it's own sake, but see above. 3. Is there any reason to believe that prisoner abuse/torture/whatever may actually have a negative impact on how the US is viewed globally? If we are to believe that the Bush foreign policy plans for the mid-east include the spread of Democracy and Freedom, how does any prisoner abuse, justified in the eyes of the US or not, help to spread these ideals? Extra credit if you leave "Who the !@#$ cares" out of your response. We are not going to viewed well globally in any case. The world feels threatened by us, and until they can consolidate and match us a peer, it will continue that way. Once again, please if you like read my National Security posts in another thread. The things being viewed as abuse, for the most part are isolated incidents. Not a matter of policy. Where is the friggen uproar against sadistic prison guards in our own country? Lastly, anyone who thinks that the "Liberal" mantra is "Be nice to the TERRORISTS, and they will be nice to us" is a complete idiot. 344495[/snapback] I for one, never said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 344512[/snapback] Just noticed your signature. FANTASTIC! I thought I was the only one out there that loved that movie. Lawrence Olivier was VERY convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Just noticed your signature. FANTASTIC! I thought I was the only one out there that loved that movie. Lawrence Olivier was VERY convincing. 344520[/snapback] Goes well with the kitty dental tool picture, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 344512[/snapback] Re #2: he didn't say the use of torture to extract information, he said the use of torture to extract useful information. I know there's plenty of documented cases from WWII and beyond where people who were tortured ultimately told the interrogators what they wanted to hear and not necessarily the truth. I don't, however, know how often that happens. Has anyone ever studied how reliable a method of interrogation torture really is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Re #2: he didn't say the use of torture to extract information, he said the use of torture to extract useful information. I know there's plenty of documented cases from WWII and beyond where people who were tortured ultimately told the interrogators what they wanted to hear and not necessarily the truth. I don't, however, know how often that happens. Has anyone ever studied how reliable a method of interrogation torture really is? 344529[/snapback] Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Yup. 344537[/snapback] Okay...is the study of its effectiveness available???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Okay...is the study of its effectiveness available???? 344539[/snapback] Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Okay...is the study of its effectiveness available???? 344539[/snapback] The military has schools on it, and from what I understand, a good one can be very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Re #2: he didn't say the use of torture to extract information, he said the use of torture to extract useful information. I know there's plenty of documented cases from WWII and beyond where people who were tortured ultimately told the interrogators what they wanted to hear and not necessarily the truth. I don't, however, know how often that happens. Has anyone ever studied how reliable a method of interrogation torture really is? 344529[/snapback] I recall an NPR story/interview with a retired gentleman (may have been CIA, haven't been able to find a link) who said they/he used it quite a bit in Vietnam. The long and the short of it was that you didn't really get much out of a prisoner, and the longer the torture continues, the less usefull they become (for both obvious and not-so-obvious reasons). I'm sure their are actual percentages that we will never see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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