Doctor gives reason for Buffalo abandoning the short to intermediate passing game midseason

[BillsFan2313]

10 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

For a right handed golfer the majority of stress from the swing and impact is absorbed by the left arm/ elbow.  Now the right shoulder drives through the swing. The right elbow is hardly affected.

 

"Golfer's elbow usually affects your dominant arm. For example, right-handed people develop golfer's elbow in their right arm. Symptoms usually start as a tender spot on your inner elbow. Golfer's elbow pain can also radiate up and down your arm."

 

[Billy Claude]

Wouldn't Diggs have said something in one of his interviews if If Allen's elbow was seriously affecting the game plan for the entire 2nd half of the season?  Or even if Diggs didn't say anything specific, he might have hinted there was a reason for the problems the offense faced the second half of the season.  Instead he just expressed frustration.

[newcam2012]

19 hours ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

Bottom line the Buffalo Bills offensive line isn’t good enough. It was very obvious during this years Super Bowl no way does our offensive line match up with neither one of those Super Bowl teams Kansas City Chiefs or the Philadelphia Eagles in my opinion.
 

The Buffalo Bills wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl regardless of QB Josh Allen elbow. One superstar player isn’t going to win Buffalo our first undisputed National Championship we have seen this pattern play out of the past 50 plus years of Buffalo sports college and professional. We saw that with the Bonnies Bob Lanier, the Sabres Gilbert Perrault, the Braves Bob McAdoo, the Bills Jim Kelly, the Sabres Dominik Hasek now the Bills Josh Allen. See the theme Buffalo sports teams relying on one superstar player and then if something happens like a injury the Buffalo sports team is done in regards of winning a undisputed National Championship because our Buffalo teams lack depth.
 

We don’t have well round Buffalo sports teams we rely on one superstar than we get let down when something like a injury or one play happens that cost Buffalo a championship. Our Buffalo sports teams are too thin with not enough depth that does Buffalo sports teams in. Not Buffalo sports teams bad luck or the team is curse or Buffalo is curse why we lose. We don’t have the depth on our roster throughout to win a undisputed National Championship in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Can't argue with your logic. Not a popular view but very hard to dispute.

 

More specifically, Allen doesn't have adequate oline support or weapons to take full advantage of his skills. Thus, the term Super Man is often used when describing him. This issue isn't a new one. For years pundits, fans, and the media have chimed in about how reliant the Bills are in Allen. To a fault. It rears its head especially on the playoffs.

 

It's utter failure on Beane and company to get a good supporting cast for Allen. I'm not optimistic they can after basically 6 years of trying failures. 

[transplantbillsfan]

17 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

     Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

. I don’t think they would favor letting him play if they knew they then had to eliminate vital or large  parts of the offense just for him to be on the field.Seems counter to McD’s philosophy. I think in the past they have stated if you are going to be on the field you are expected to be able to perform your job , or why be out there?

   I don’t know, just an opinion , but josh doesn’t seem like he would avoid throws as he has proven to have a high pain threshold ( i think each other afc east team had at least 3 other qbs play at some point last year due to injury , as josh never missed a snap because of injury), so unless the therapist has insider knowledge (which he has stated on YouTube he does not) regarding Josh and the offense , this is just theoretical , and i agree with Gungy, seems more like an excuse rather than reality.

I think that part of the offense that disappeared was more a reflection on Dorsey, teams having film on his offense as the year progressed, and his inexperience as a coordinator, more so than josh being limited by pain. If I hear that from josh’s mouth, that he removed short throws , then i will believe it.   

 

You spend a long time bashing the credibility of him.

 

Are you arguing that what he said might be incorrect because he isn't knowledgeable enough?  What he said doesn't seem like it would be groundbreaking stuff you'd need to learn from years of Residency--and just as a side note, many physical therapists do go on to Residencies... it's just a choice for them unlike the medical Doctors.

 

A UCL sprain is a pretty specific injury and seems like physical therapists would be pretty darn familiar with it.  So you either think he's incompetent and lacks the knowledge in his field to provide the educated opinion he provides, or you think he's lying and using his title as a means to convince people his lie is correct.

11 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

Trimball was wrong more often than he was right with player injuries this season. He’s not a medical doctor he’s a doctor of physical therapy. Anyway, he’s correct about the elbow influencing short throws but those are more the screens, bubble screens and wheel routes where he’s throwing at or behind the line of scrimmage.

 

 

 

He was?  Can you provide examples?

11 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

I heard/read about throwing angles and Joshes elbow a while back, it certainly can have an effect, but I am also certain that throw angles can be modified for short throws to make the throws regularly doable, it’s a matter of “proper play designs” that allow for “adjustments” to be successful…, 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Josh actually said he had to alter his throwing motion because of the injury.

 

I don't understand why this is being viewed as some kind of ridiculous theory.

[Steptide]

He's been golfing, I'd say he's fine 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

I would agree with that "assessment" if that happened after Allen got hurt. They dropped the short passing game well before that. 

 

No they didn't.  Short passing game was going strong all the way up to the bye week. Football Outsiders has a stat called Intended Air Yards per attempt or Average Depth of Target.  I'm providing the link and you can take a look yourself, but knowing that Allen got injured in Week 8, take a look at those first 8 games. The 5 lowest numbers on the entire season were in those first 5 games.  Plus, the Pittsburgh game had 2 passes alone to Davis for over 150 yards, so that 13.5 belies what was actually going on in that game.  Buffalo's best and most efficient games of the season offensively (especially with regards to Allen) were likely the Rams, Titans, 1st Phins game, and the Chiefs game.  All were games with an Average Depth of Target 7.4 yards or lower.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02/gamelog/2022/advanced/

[RyanC883]

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Hill was on Miami's roster in 2022.

 

Other than the O-line, KC had one receiver with over 80 catches (Kelce).  M V-S and Juju were other team's throwaways who combined for 5 TDs. 

 

The talent divide wasn't as wide as your are exaggerating...so, it can be done "at some point" without all elite talent.

 

KC's OL was MUCH better than ours, giving Mahomes more time, as well as allowing a 7th round RB Paccheo (sp) to look like a #1 RB.  Their other RB was also an elite receiving threat.  

[Since1981]

Bunch of hooie. the offense sucked, all 17 games didn’t have crossers. OL blew. Dorsey was a horsey. Josh elbow had boobooo. Josh been playing golf. Injury lingers? BS.  
 

Yes his elbow hurt but that’s a smokescreen for the wider issues. 

[Man with No Name]

11 hours ago, 2003Contenders said:

Yes. Tony Romo, who did Bills games multiple times during Josh's elbow injury pretty much stated this repeatedly: it may seem counterintuitive but the short "touch" passes place much more stress on the elbow than the downfield passes.

yup. i remember thinking romo was overstating the issues caused by the elbow. now it kind of seems like maybe Romo actually had a lot more information than the rest of us

[Old Coot]

If you listen to the podcast, the caster gives a well reasoned and nuanced evaluation of Dorsey's season.  In other words, he's out of touch with this board.

 

Seriously, the stats he quotes show that Dorsey did as well as Daboll the previous year and Dorsey had to deal with a wounded Josh.

[JGMcD2]

15 hours ago, Beck Water said:

After delving, he was nice enough to get back to me and said, fundamentally, nothing to write about because it's a non-issue.  Said Josh can play all the golf he wants because the principal stress from golfing is on the opposite side of the elbow and the forces are much lower with a golf swing than throwing a football at NFL velocities.

 

Again, don't have anything written publicly or tweeted, so "believe it or don't", and since he's a PT, believe he knows what he's talking about or don't.

Guys I’ve been around are typically allowed to golf a few weeks post-op. It varies on the guy. Not a ton of concern. 

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Can't argue with your logic. Not a popular view but very hard to dispute.

 

 

I know nothing about other Buffalo sports but when it comes to the early 90s Bills it is very easy to dispute. HoF coach. HoF pass rusher. HoF receiver. HoF running back. 

 

That team did NOT rely just on Jim Kelly and indeed had multiple famous wins with its backup QB playing. 

 

There is no doubt the current incarnation hasn't got enough pieces around Josh on offense.... but the logic of the post as a whole? In a word, flawed.

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know nothing about other Buffalo sports but when it comes to the early 90s Bills it is very easy to dispute. HoF coach. HoF pass rusher. HoF receiver. HoF running back. 

 

That team did NOT rely just on Jim Kelly and indeed had multiple famous wins with its backup QB playing. 

 

There is no doubt the current incarnation hasn't got enough pieces around Josh on offense.... but the logic of the post as a whole? In a word, flawed.

And still no Super Bowl wins!

 

Are we witnessing another great QB who goes out with no ring? 

 

What moves, happenings, events, etc.. can you see or project that gives you confidence this team and organization can make a Super Bowl and win it? 

 

What's the likliehood of it happening? 

[newcam2012]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know nothing about other Buffalo sports but when it comes to the early 90s Bills it is very easy to dispute. HoF coach. HoF pass rusher. HoF receiver. HoF running back. 

 

That team did NOT rely just on Jim Kelly and indeed had multiple famous wins with its backup QB playing. 

 

There is no doubt the current incarnation hasn't got enough pieces around Josh on offense.... but the logic of the post as a whole? In a word, flawed.

Disagree. The post is pretty spot on with the exception of the 90s Bills teams. As you pointed out Kelly had great pieces around him. 

 

Wide right, Tenn miracle, and 13 seconds will forever be etched in many Bills fans memories. It's just part of being a fan. 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

And still no Super Bowl wins!

 

Are we witnessing another great QB who goes out with no ring? 

 

What moves, happenings, events, etc.. can you see or project that gives you confidence this team and organization can make a Super Bowl and win it? 

 

What's the likliehood of it happening? 

 

Well I don't believe the 90s team not winning a Superbowl has any impact whatsoever on the current team. 

 

What gives me confidence? I mean the fact that we are a top 5 team in the NFL. The fact that we just went 13-3 when we were injury ravaged all year. The fact that we have an elite QB and the fact that we have some other pieces in place. Does the roster need some work? Absolutely. But do I thinn it is doable? 100%. And then they are going to need a bounce of the ball or two. 

 

I think this season is part of the panic for Bills fans because I think you can justifiably say the two best teams in football made the Superbowl. And the road to the Bills being that feels tough - it is. But that is rare that the two best teams make it. In 2021 Cincy and LAR made it. I don't think either were among the top 4 teams in football. I could take an argument the Rams were 4th behind KC, Buffalo and Green Bay but I think I'd have had Tampa ahead of them. It isn't always the best two teams that make the dance. Just be in that top 6 or 7, keep yourself alive and get a break of the ball or two.

 

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

Disagree. The post is pretty spot on with the exception of the 90s Bills teams. As you pointed out Kelly had great pieces around him. 

 

Wide right, Tenn miracle, and 13 seconds will forever be etched in many Bills fans memories. It's just part of being a fan. 

 

So you disagree, except for agreeing? 

Edited February 25, 2023 by GunnerBill

[NewEra]

15 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I misread your overwrought  hyperbole regarding the O-line.   It's still BS though ("regardless of any stats you want to find", lol wtf?), demonstrably so, too.  Talking about O-lines...Bengals got to the AFCC game with a bad one.  

 

Anyway, so M V-S was part of the "Aaron Rodgers has no weapons crew", but now he's "elite talent" isn KC.  Got it. 

 

Again if you  are changing the argument to coaching as well--it's obvious that, by far, this is the biggest talent gap between the 2 teams.  No argument there.  Swap coaching staffs only and the Bills win a SB in 2022.

 

 

 

 

 

My MVS comment has nothing to do with being and “elite” talent. You said that the talent divide isn’t as much as people say.  I mentioned their WRs to compare them to ours.  Their playmakers are clearly better and their OL is one of the best in the league and includes elite talent.  Our OL was one of the worst.  
 

There are statistics to be found to prove almost any point someone is trying to make, regardless of how off base it is.  The stats that you posted try to minimize the effectiveness of the Philly pass rush is proof of that.  Reddick, Graham and Hargrave were all top 15 in pass rush grades.  Josh sweat was 8th in the league among edge rushers with 13 sacks, his pff grade was an elite 86.  You can find stats to show that their pass rush was overrated…..just as easily as I found stats to the contrary.   

 

the comment about us winning the SB if we had Reid in co, could be…..but our OL wasn’t much better than the OL Reid had vs TB when Mahomes was eaten alive.  
 

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

KC's OL was MUCH better than ours, giving Mahomes more time, as well as allowing a 7th round RB Paccheo (sp) to look like a #1 RB.  Their other RB was also an elite receiving threat.  

 

Pacheco had a few more yards than Singletary.  McKinnon was hardly a RB in that Offense. Cook had far more YPC and under a yard less per catch, just didn't get the reps because the Bills don't spread it around like the Chiefs.

 

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

My MVS comment has nothing to do with being and “elite” talent. You said that the talent divide isn’t as much as people say.  I mentioned their WRs to compare them to ours.  Their playmakers are clearly better and their OL is one of the best in the league and includes elite talent.  Our OL was one of the worst.  
 

There are statistics to be found to prove almost any point someone is trying to make, regardless of how off base it is.  The stats that you posted try to minimize the effectiveness of the Philly pass rush is proof of that.  Reddick, Graham and Hargrave were all top 15 in pass rush grades.  Josh sweat was 8th in the league among edge rushers with 13 sacks, his pff grade was an elite 86.  You can find stats to show that their pass rush was overrated…..just as easily as I found stats to the contrary.   

 

the comment about us winning the SB if we had Reid in co, could be…..but our OL wasn’t much better than the OL Reid had vs TB when Mahomes was eaten alive.  
 

 

Eagles pass rush resulted in the 9th best D against the pass.   

 

I've posted elsewhere stats comparing QB hurries, hits, pressures, time from snap to throw or pressure, etc between Bills and Chiefs.  You can look them up yourself or just say the Bills were the worst.

[Beck Water]

19 hours ago, Mango said:

If Allen was taking shots deep so he didn’t feel pain. Ok I can accept that. But based on Allen’s playing style I don’t fully buy into it because he plays this way a lot. 

 

But if this is a continuation of the “he was less accurate because of his arm” conversation this is pointless. Sure we’d like him to go back to being a 70% (‘20) passer instead of 63.3% (‘21 and ‘22). But the gripe with Allen this season (for me) hasn’t really been tossing around uncatchable balls or completion percentage. It’s been decision making. 

 

I will post it for the 100th time. I run through the all-22 after every game. There are guys underneath. There are open receivers. The very best example is the link below.
 

Tough throw and tough catch to Davis in the end zone. But Allen doesn’t even bother to look to an embarrassingly wide open Shakir to his right. None of that has to do with Allen’s elbow. And plays like this happen every single week over and over again. Allen bid a freak, but he needs to learn to play the game like he has less arm talent.  
 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

 

I do think there are shots he didn't take the 2nd half of the season because he wasn't confident in his ball placement, given the elbow.  So I do think that impacted the Bills offense.

 

But overall, you're correct that the overarching issue for Allen and the Bills is mental and not physical - Josh going for the "kill shot" all the time instead of taking the sure chain moving completion.  And you're also correct that when I watch film, that's what I see - Dorsey catches a lot of heat for his play design, but often the play design features open guys underneath whom Allen doesn't appear to see.

 

It's my biggest "unknown" about Dorsey.  I think his play design and play calling can improve, sure.  But what I don't know is if he and Joe Brady have what it takes to rein Allen in, or if they're stuck in this "we can't get on him for failing to take the underneath throws because he has the talent to make those crazy throws work".  I say, not only can you get on him, you need to get on him.  That attitude eventually doomed Russ Wilson and Carson Wentz.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Pacheco had a few more yards than Singletary.  McKinnon was hardly a RB in that Offense. Cook had far more YPC and under a yard less per catch, just didn't get the reps because the Bills don't spread it around like the Chiefs.

 

 

Eagles pass rush resulted in the 9th best D against the pass.   

 

I've posted elsewhere stats comparing QB hurries, hits, pressures, time from snap to throw or pressure, etc between Bills and Chiefs.  You can look them up yourself or just say the Bills were the worst.

And you can continue to put words in my mouth.  Per usual.  Bye again

[stevestojan]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:48 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

This is the first new thread in several weeks that gives me some legitimate reason for thinking next year might still be great. Makes a bit more sense why Dorsey was playing Madden for the second half of the season.