Doctor gives reason for Buffalo abandoning the short to intermediate passing game midseason

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

Funnily enough, I feel the exact opposite.

Diggs
Knox
Davis
McKenzie
Cook
Hines
Shakir

That should be enough weaponry to produce. 

Who did Mahomes and his league leading offense have this year? Travis Kelce and a bunch of guys. You're telling me that Juju/MVS/Watson/Moore/Hardman is greatly superior to what the Bills have at WR? That McKinnon and Pacheco are greatly superior to Cook and Hines?

I'll give you the offensive line. That I agree with. Mahomes has an elite line, Allen does not. But weaponry? I just don't agree that the Bills didn't have enough of it this year. 

Instead, I believe that Dorsey did not utilize the personnel he DID have effectively enough. Cook and Hines should both have been used heavily in the passing game. They're both mismatches against linebackers. Cook, Hines, and McKenzie should all have had their speed and quickness used to stretch the defense horizontally, even if only as pre-snap eye candy to give defenders a moment of pause. Knox is an athletic freak and should have been featured much more in the passing game. Davis should have been used in the slot more frequently, as he was the past two years, since he's proven more consistently that he can beat safeties and undersized slot guys than outside corners.

In short, while the Bills' weaponry can definitely stand to improve (as can the protection), but I believe that Dorsey's lack of creativity is what held the Bills offense back at times in 2022. He needs to get better moving forward. I believe he can, and I hope he will.

He didn’t mention weaponry in the post you quoted.  Maybe he did elsewhere and if so, apologies.  He said talent level.  
 

i agree that Dorsey (and Allen’s injury) contributed to the offensive decline in the 2nd half of the season……but I think that we would’ve steamrolled some teams if we had KCs OL.  The talent differential along the OL was massive.  KC and Philly had 2 of the 3 best OLs in the league (Detroit being the other in the mix) if not the top 2.  

[Mr. WEO]

27 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Did you watch the KC OLine play against the Philly D that had 70 sacks this year?  LT, LG, C and RG are all better than every player not named Diggs.  We have one of the worst OLs in the league they have one of the best.  Then add Kelce -  then add Andy Reid.  Mahomes was working with a LOT more than allen.  That is a fact.  
 

“Elite playmakers”? Not so much.  “Elite supporting cast”? absofrickinlutely.  There’s a wide talent divide when you take away- von, Hyde, daquan Jones, Hamlin, crowder and a close to useless Poyer.  Injuries are part of the game, but some teams can’t overcome them.  How many all pros were the chiefs missing?  
 

McD- Dorsey- Frazier Vs Reid- Bienemy- Spags?  Our coaches were totally outclassed by Taylor and Anarumo

 

 

The guy said "elite talent".  I responded.

 

Worst O-line in league history?  come on....what am I supposed to say to that?   

 

Anyway, I posted elsewhere that Mahomes took more of a beating behind his line than did Allen.  They (Chiefs)were definitely better blocking for  the run though.  Eagles D-line was totally exposed in that SB---zero sacks against crippled Mahomes.  Paper tigers---all those sacks yet only #9 against the pass and #8 in points given up. Big deal.  The Bills D--even with all the injuries, was better at both.

 

Von and Hyde were definitely missed.  Hamlin is a backup.  Poyer was indeed useless, but not because he was injured--he was burnt left and right in that Bengals game.  A liability---and an All Pro!

 

But you are definitely correct re: coaching.  The Bills staff totally outclassed (again). 

[2003Contenders]

Yes. Tony Romo, who did Bills games multiple times during Josh's elbow injury pretty much stated this repeatedly: it may seem counterintuitive but the short "touch" passes place much more stress on the elbow than the downfield passes.

[Logic]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

He didn’t mention weaponry in the post you quoted.  Maybe he did elsewhere and if so, apologies.  He said talent level.  
 

i agree that Dorsey (and Allen’s injury) contributed to the offensive decline in the 2nd half of the season……but I think that we would’ve steamrolled some teams if we had KCs OL.  The talent differential along the OL was massive.  KC and Philly had 2 of the 3 best OLs in the league (Detroit being the other in the mix) if not the top 2.  

You're correct that he said "talent level" and not "weaponry". But in my mind, saying Allen didn't have a high enough talent level around him is the same as saying he didn't have enough weaponry. If the poster was not referring to the level of talent surrounding Allen, or meant something other than "he needs a better supporting cast", then I misunderstood him.

I agreed in my post -- and agree with you -- that the talent level at OL for the Bills is nowhere close to KC's. But the talent level of the skill players around Allen is comparable to the talent around Mahomes (and some of the others listed), IMO. I also don't think the OL is catastrophic. It's average to below average, and nowhere near the level of KC's, but it's not "league worst" or bottom barrel, in my opinion. 

I maintain that the Bills had enough horses on offense to be better than they were the second half of the season, even with Allen's injuries. I also admit I could be dead wrong.

[US Egg]

13 hours ago, Gugny said:

I’d like a 2nd opinion before jumping to conclusions.

 

[BuffaninSarasota]

5 hours ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

If it was serious, he wouldn't be golfing you would think. 

 

that's funny - unintentionally it would appear

[Saxum]

14 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

@Gugny is reusing image.  It is one sent to him by his wife on his performance.

[Beck Water]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

His intermediate game seems to have miraculously improved after the Bengals game:

 

 

This is going to be one of those "believe it or don't" things.   I reached out to Kyle Trimble on Facebook when the news came out that Josh was playing in the Pebble Beach Pro-Am, sharing the concerns that were expressed on this site at the time about the effect of golfing on the UCL injury.   He said he didn't think it was an issue but would delve into it and possibly write about it.

 

After delving, he was nice enough to get back to me and said, fundamentally, nothing to write about because it's a non-issue.  Said Josh can play all the golf he wants because the principal stress from golfing is on the opposite side of the elbow and the forces are much lower with a golf swing than throwing a football at NFL velocities.

 

Again, don't have anything written publicly or tweeted, so "believe it or don't", and since he's a PT, believe he knows what he's talking about or don't.

 

4 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

This may have been an issue for a week or 2, but I refuse to believe it was some sort of big problem for half the damned season.  Not with Josh running off to play in a golf tournament right after the season ended.

 

If his injury had been serious, he would have had surgery and been out long term.

 

He didn't and wasn't, so I am reluctant to use his elbow as an excuse.

 

"I refuse to believe" - in the words of Josh Allen "Okay" 

 

You and Josh are aligned since he hasn't used his elbow as an excuse either.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room in "serious".  No one is going to do surgery on a partially torn UCL that can heal on its own so if you define "serious" as "needing immediate surgery", it's not serious.   But there's a lot of room between "needs immediate surgery" and "can be played through, but affects the player".  Not needing surgery doesn't mean it isn't "serious" in the sense of impacting the player.

 

I'd pay attention to what @JGMcD2 had to say about UCL injuries and PRP injections in the context of baseball, since that is "his lane".

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Beck Water

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The guy said "elite talent".  I responded.

 

Worst O-line in league history?  come on....what am I supposed to say to that?   

 

Anyway, I posted elsewhere that Mahomes took more of a beating behind his line than did Allen.  They (Chiefs)were definitely better blocking for  the run though.  Eagles D-line was totally exposed in that SB---zero sacks against crippled Mahomes.  Paper tigers---all those sacks yet only #9 against the pass and #8 in points given up. Big deal.  The Bills D--even with all the injuries, was better at both.

 

Von and Hyde were definitely missed.  Hamlin is a backup.  Poyer was indeed useless, but not because he was injured--he was burnt left and right in that Bengals game.  A liability---and an All Pro!

 

But you are definitely correct re: coaching.  The Bills staff totally outclassed (again). 

Right. Elite talen— we have Diggs.  That’s all.

 

the entire KC OL minus their RT is going to or already is getting paid mega millions.  They have some elite talent on offense line ….because they paid for it (thuney + Orlando) and drafted it (creed).  Smith is very good (but not elite atm, but he’ll get paid like it).  We have 1 WR.  That’s it.  Kelce and Diggs are a wash-  juju+ MVS + toney >> Knox, Davis and anyone else we found on the street.  They have better weapons- they have a MUCH better OL regardless of any stats you want to find
 

Put their OL in front of Josh, with KC weapons and Andy Reid calling plays— instead of a rookie play caller.  Spags instead of one of the most passive DCs I can remember….. You likely win super bowls.  
 

where did I say our OL is the worst in league history? You’re not supposed to say anything to that….:because I didn’t say that.   Maybe this is one of the problems with your posts and why I had you on ignore most of the season.  

3 hours ago, Logic said:

You're correct that he said "talent level" and not "weaponry". But in my mind, saying Allen didn't have a high enough talent level around him is the same as saying he didn't have enough weaponry. If the poster was not referring to the level of talent surrounding Allen, or meant something other than "he needs a better supporting cast", then I misunderstood him.

I agreed in my post -- and agree with you -- that the talent level at OL for the Bills is nowhere close to KC's. But the talent level of the skill players around Allen is comparable to the talent around Mahomes (and some of the others listed), IMO. I also don't think the OL is catastrophic. It's average to below average, and nowhere near the level of KC's, but it's not "league worst" or bottom barrel, in my opinion. 

I maintain that the Bills had enough horses on offense to be better than they were the second half of the season, even with Allen's injuries. I also admit I could be dead wrong.

Idk….talent around him = supporting cast imo.  
 

No big deal, I hear ya 

[Jrb1979]

18 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

I would agree with that "assessment" if that happened after Allen got hurt. They dropped the short passing game well before that. 

[Mango]

If Allen was taking shots deep so he didn’t feel pain. Ok I can accept that. But based on Allen’s playing style I don’t fully buy into it because he plays this way a lot. 

 

But if this is a continuation of the “he was less accurate because of his arm” conversation this is pointless. Sure we’d like him to go back to being a 70% (‘20) passer instead of 63.3% (‘21 and ‘22). But the gripe with Allen this season (for me) hasn’t really been tossing around uncatchable balls or completion percentage. It’s been decision making. 

 

I will post it for the 100th time. I run through the all-22 after every game. There are guys underneath. There are open receivers. The very best example is the link below.
 

Tough throw and tough catch to Davis in the end zone. But Allen doesn’t even bother to look to an embarrassingly wide open Shakir to his right. None of that has to do with Allen’s elbow. And plays like this happen every single week over and over again. Allen bid a freak, but he needs to learn to play the game like he has less arm talent.  
 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

This is going to be one of those "believe it or don't" things.   I reached out to Kyle Trimble on Facebook when the news came out that Josh was playing in the Pebble Beach Pro-Am, sharing the concerns that were expressed on this site at the time about the effect of golfing on the UCL injury.   He said he didn't think it was an issue but would delve into it and possibly write about it.

 

After delving, he was nice enough to get back to me and said, fundamentally, nothing to write about because it's a non-issue.  Said Josh can play all the golf he wants because the principal stress from golfing is on the opposite side of the elbow and the forces are much lower with a golf swing than throwing a football at NFL velocities.

 

Again, don't have anything written publicly or tweeted, so "believe it or don't", and since he's a PT, believe he knows what he's talking about or don't.

 

 

"I refuse to believe" - in the words of Josh Allen "Okay" 

 

You and Josh are aligned since he hasn't used his elbow as an excuse either.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room in "serious".  No one is going to do surgery on a partially torn UCL that can heal on its own so if you define "serious" as "needing immediate surgery", it's not serious.   But there's a lot of room between "needs immediate surgery" and "can be played through, but affects the player".  Not needing surgery doesn't mean it isn't "serious" in the sense of impacting the player.

 

I'd pay attention to what @JGMcD2 had to say about UCL injuries and PRP injections in the context of baseball, since that is "his lane".

 

 

 

Seems odd he would have to look into it...and then simply conclude; "yeah he can play all the golf he wants".

[BillsFan2313]

3 hours ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

 

that's funny - unintentionally it would appear

 

The part of the elbow a golf swing uses is right above the UCL, so I would assume the team and doctors would advise him not to play. But I am guessing you are one of those folks, who is embarrasingly bad at golf, so you don't consider it a sport or a risk. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Right. Elite talen— we have Diggs.  That’s all.

 

the entire KC OL minus their RT is going to or already is getting paid mega millions.  They have some elite talent on offense line ….because they paid for it (thuney + Orlando) and drafted it (creed).  Smith is very good (but not elite atm, but he’ll get paid like it).  We have 1 WR.  That’s it.  Kelce and Diggs are a wash-  juju+ MVS + toney >> Knox, Davis and anyone else we found on the street.  They have better weapons- they have a MUCH better OL regardless of any stats you want to find
 

Put their OL in front of Josh, with KC weapons and Andy Reid calling plays— instead of a rookie play caller.  Spags instead of one of the most passive DCs I can remember….. You likely win super bowls.  
 

where did I say our OL is the worst in league history? You’re not supposed to say anything to that….:because I didn’t say that.   Maybe this is one of the problems with your posts and why I had you on ignore most of the season.  

Idk….talent around him = supporting cast imo.  
 

No big deal, I hear ya 

 

 

I misread your overwrought  hyperbole regarding the O-line.   It's still BS though ("regardless of any stats you want to find", lol wtf?), demonstrably so, too.  Talking about O-lines...Bengals got to the AFCC game with a bad one.  

 

Anyway, so M V-S was part of the "Aaron Rodgers has no weapons crew", but now he's "elite talent" isn KC.  Got it. 

 

Again if you  are changing the argument to coaching as well--it's obvious that, by far, this is the biggest talent gap between the 2 teams.  No argument there.  Swap coaching staffs only and the Bills win a SB in 2022.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mr. WEO

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

Anyway, so M V-S was part of the "Aaron Rodgers has no weapons crew", but now he's "elite talent" isn KC.

 

This is a poor representation of that argument and I think you know this. Chiefs have multiple 1st/2nd tier at their position players - Brown, Thuney, Humphrey, and Kelce for sure. The Bills have one - Diggs. They also have better depth at the skill positions than we do and their 7th round RB was making plays I've never seen Singletary make. When you factor in the coaching how is there even a debate?

[LABILLBACKER]

13 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

The part of the elbow a golf swing uses is right above the UCL, so I would assume the team and doctors would advise him not to play. But I am guessing you are one of those folks, who is embarrasingly bad at golf, so you don't consider it a sport or a risk. 

For a right handed golfer the majority of stress from the swing and impact is absorbed by the left arm/ elbow.  Now the right shoulder drives through the swing. The right elbow is hardly affected.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is a poor representation of that argument and I think you know this. Chiefs have multiple 1st/2nd tier at their position players - Brown, Thuney, Humphrey, and Kelce for sure. The Bills have one - Diggs. They also have better depth at the skill positions than we do and their 7th round RB was making plays I've never seen Singletary make. When you factor in the coaching how is there even a debate?

 

We've covered the O-line several times now.  

 

Ditto the coaching.  

 

 

 

GO back and read the post I originally was responding to.  Guy was referring to "elite" talent.  Now you want to add Pacheco to that descriptor?  We aren't even talking about the same thing any more. 

[starrymessenger]

27 minutes ago, Mango said:

If Allen was taking shots deep so he didn’t feel pain. Ok I can accept that. But based on Allen’s playing style I don’t fully buy into it because he plays this way a lot. 

 

But if this is a continuation of the “he was less accurate because of his arm” conversation this is pointless. Sure we’d like him to go back to being a 70% (‘20) passer instead of 63.3% (‘21 and ‘22). But the gripe with Allen this season (for me) hasn’t really been tossing around uncatchable balls or completion percentage. It’s been decision making. 

 

I will post it for the 100th time. I run through the all-22 after every game. There are guys underneath. There are open receivers. The very best example is the link below.
 

Tough throw and tough catch to Davis in the end zone. But Allen doesn’t even bother to look to an embarrassingly wide open Shakir to his right. None of that has to do with Allen’s elbow. And plays like this happen every single week over and over again. Allen bid a freak, but he needs to learn to play the game like he has less arm talent.  
 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

I honestly thought Daboll did a good job of reigning Josh in, given Josh's inclinations. This has got to be on Dorsey's to do list.

[PrimeTime101]

18 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Herbert

Mahomes 

Burrow

Watson 

Tua 

Hurts

 

They’ve all played with the most talented offenses they’ll ever have I can say that with the utmost confidence.  Oline play.  Weapons.   Elite RBs. 
 

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

I think its funny that this gets brought up over and over again this offseason when early season last year I argued that this team is not the most talented complete team in football and i got dumped on.

[BuffaninSarasota]

23 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

The part of the elbow a golf swing uses is right above the UCL, so I would assume the team and doctors would advise him not to play. But I am guessing you are one of those folks, who is embarrasingly bad at golf, so you don't consider it a sport or a risk. 

So you're assuming the team & doctors would advise him not to play golf if it was potentially dangerous to the original UCL injury, correct?

 

Then why is he playing golf? I'd speculate (...not assume) the team & doctors deemed an occasional round of golf as not dangerous or risky

 

And your guess is incorrect - I'm a 9 handicap and very much view golf as a sport.