Do the Bills Under Appreciate Gabe Davis?

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Mcg said:

He had every opportunity to be the 2 he crashed and burned 

Absurd.  Crashed and burned?   He had more catches and more yards than 10 of #1s in the league, and more catches and yards than about 25 of the #2s.   That is not crashed and burned, by any means at all.  

 

Anyone who wants to replace Davis because 2022 wasn't good enough has unreasonable expectations for a #2.  

 

Anyone who wants him to improve on 2022, great.  You do, I do, McDermott does, and he does.   But burning quality draft picks to get someone who might be better, forget it.  Spending cap space beyond what's already been spent, forget it. 

[Ya Digg?]

Under appreciate no but fair or unfair he had big expectations to live up to and he wasn’t able to do it. We all saw what he is capable of. That move to get wide open on that 4th down touchdown is one of the slickest moves you’ll ever see a WR make. We all heard how hard he worked all summer. We saw the rapport he was building with josh during training camp and through 3 games was outstanding. So to see what happened to him after that Pittsburgh game left slot of us feeling very letdown and wanting more because he showed he is capable of more. I would really like to see him produce next year, but I’m not sure he will perform like we all want him to

[Beck Water]

25 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Absurd.  Crashed and burned?   He had more catches and more yards than 10 of #1s in the league, and more catches and yards than about 25 of the #2s.   That is not crashed and burned, by any means at all.  

 

Anyone who wants to replace Davis because 2022 wasn't good enough has unreasonable expectations for a #2.  

 

Anyone who wants him to improve on 2022, great.  You do, I do, McDermott does, and he does.   But burning quality draft picks to get someone who might be better, forget it.  Spending cap space beyond what's already been spent, forget it. 

 

I don't want to replace Gabe Davis because of 2022.  I do want to see him improve.

 

But I also think it's time, and past time, to in fact utilize (not burn) a quality draft pick on improving the WR room.  Our window is now.  4th and 5th round draft picks are usually drafted there because they need development. 

 

The Bills right now are, at WR, exactly where the 2008-2012 Russ Brandon/Buddy Nix GM years were at QB IMO.  The last QB we spent a first round pick on, JP Losman in 2004, hadn't really worked out.  Our 2007 3rd round pick, Trent Edwards, was arguably better but ultimately they both were busts.  So Brandon and NIx dithered and hesitated, failed to pull the trigger, wasted 4 years on the fool's gold of a journeyman late-round pick from another team, then finally used a 1st round pick in the worst QB draft of several years before and after.  It's not that there weren't quality QB they could have selected - TJ Graham in the 2012 3rd round 6 picks before Russ Wilson stands out, Kirk Cousins was also on the board at that time.  But they were caught in the "paralysis of analysis" and didn't or couldn't act.

 

OK, so WR are one of the highest paid positions in the league, and "draft and develop" is 100% the cap-savvy way to go.  But the last two swings the Bills took - Zay Jones in the 2nd in 2017 and trading a 2018 3rd round pick for Kelvin Benjamin in 2017 - flubbed.  So Beane decided to go the sure route and trade for an already-developed 5th round WR with his 1st, while turning over the Bargain Bin for 4th rounder Gabe Davis and 5th rounder Khalil Shakir.  It's not that there haven't been some talented guys within reach - Amon Ra St Brown in the 2021 3rd, for example.  We traded down to draft James Cook, could potentially have traded up a few slots to go after George Pickens in the 2022 2nd.  

 

The bottom line is, I think Beane under-values WR and OL because that's what he learned in Carolina, and is also caught in the "paralysis of analysis" not wanting to "burn" a pick on a top talent WR ho might crash and burn like Benjamin or Zay Jones when "there are guys who can help us in the later rounds".  It pissed me off when Beane said "we don't want to suck bad enough to draft Jamar Chase" as though the alternatives are 5th overall pick or 4th/5th round players.

 

I think it's a mistake.  Invest in the offense.  Invest in OL, invest in WR.

 

You may be right, that Beane will "forget it" as far as using a high draft pick on a WR.  But I think we need that talent and it's "using" a pick, not "burning" one.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Beck Water

[Buffalo_Stampede]

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Absurd.  Crashed and burned?   He had more catches and more yards than 10 of #1s in the league, and more catches and yards than about 25 of the #2s.   That is not crashed and burned, by any means at all.  

 

Anyone who wants to replace Davis because 2022 wasn't good enough has unreasonable expectations for a #2.  

 

Anyone who wants him to improve on 2022, great.  You do, I do, McDermott does, and he does.   But burning quality draft picks to get someone who might be better, forget it.  Spending cap space beyond what's already been spent, forget it. 

He can’t consistently catch the football when contested. He’s not a good route runner. He’s a deep ball or scramble drill WR. 
 

He’s Marquez Valdes Scantling. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think there's some of that.

 

In 2021, Davis played 571 snaps and caught 35 receptions for 549 yds

In 2022, Davis played 926 snaps. Scaling by number of snaps, we'd predict 57 receptions for 890 yds.

 

He actually had 48 receptions for 836 yds, so he fell off from (or under-performed) a scaled expectation by 9 receptions and 54 yds.

 

But I think people were expecting him to improve at least a little bit, not to fall off, and most of all to improve his 7.9% drop % of 2021 instead of having it increase to 9.7%.

 

 

Why?  How is that different from expecting him to take it to the next level last season?

I think he took a step forward last season, but I wasn’t expecting a pro bowl player. Just a 4th round pick who was supposed to supplement our star receiver. I think he did that. First season as a full time starter with a new OC. I also think Josh and Gabe weren’t in synch with each other. I saw a stat where he was targeted 93 times and the number of those that were “catchable “ was 57. Fantasypros.com.

Not putting too much stock into the site or stat, but I think an offseason of film study by Josh, Gabe AND Dorsey to see where the issues were is going to help. I’d like to see the “catchable “ rate a little higher. For Diggs it was around 75% as opposed to the 61% for Gabe. Lastly and maybe more importantly, it’s a contract year baby!!

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I think he took a step forward last season, but I wasn’t expecting a pro bowl player. Just a 4th round pick who was supposed to supplement our star receiver. I think he did that. First season as a full time starter with a new OC. I also think Josh and Gabe weren’t in synch with each other. I saw a stat where he was targeted 93 times and the number of those that were “catchable “ was 57. Fantasypros.com.

Not putting too much stock into the site or stat, but I think an offseason of film study by Josh, Gabe AND Dorsey to see where the issues were is going to help. I’d like to see the “catchable “ rate a little higher. For Diggs it was around 75% as opposed to the 61% for Gabe. Lastly and maybe more importantly, it’s a contract year baby!!

Patrick Peterson told us what the problem is. Gabe only runs a couple routes and he knew what when they were coming.
 

So it’s either Gabe Davis can’t run a full route tree or the OC doesn’t think Gabe can run a full route tree.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

I think he took a step forward last season, but I wasn’t expecting a pro bowl player. Just a 4th round pick who was supposed to supplement our star receiver. I think he did that. First season as a full time starter with a new OC. I also think Josh and Gabe weren’t in synch with each other. I saw a stat where he was targeted 93 times and the number of those that were “catchable “ was 57. Fantasypros.com.

Not putting too much stock into the site or stat, but I think an offseason of film study by Josh, Gabe AND Dorsey to see where the issues were is going to help. I’d like to see the “catchable “ rate a little higher. For Diggs it was around 75% as opposed to the 61% for Gabe. Lastly and maybe more importantly, it’s a contract year baby!!

 

Oh, wow, that's a pretty amazing number if so.  I wonder how they define "catchable" though?  Is it like drops, where a drop is defined only as a ball that can be caught with "ordinary effort", that falls within the frame from like, thighs to head or as far to the side as both arms can reach without turning/stretching?  Do you know?

 

Because guys who have played, announcers etc will say "that was a difficult catch but he needs to make that one" about balls that aren't scored as drops.  And if "catchable" is defined the same way, it might include some balls that most of us would say "yeah, that was a contested catch, but he got his hands on it, he needs to seal that deal".

[BarleyNY]

Do the Bills appreciate Gabe Davis? He’s eligible for a contract extension right now. I haven’t heard anything about that getting done, but I have heard a lot about them acquiring DHop. 

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Patrick Peterson told us what the problem is. Gabe only runs a couple routes and he knew what when they were coming.
 

So it’s either Gabe Davis can’t run a full route tree or the OC doesn’t think Gabe can run a full route tree.

 

I'd like to suggest Option 3: Patrick Peterson is talking trash and exaggerating for the purpose of talking trash.

 

I think it is true that he knew what was coming on that INT to Gabe Davis in the EZ because it was a read/play the Bills and Josh had been leaning on too often in the red zone, but that was a terrible throw by Josh and if it had been on target, he might be talking differently.

[Dopey]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, wow, that's a pretty amazing number if so.  I wonder how they define "catchable" though?  Is it like drops, where a drop is defined only as a ball that can be caught with "ordinary effort", that falls within the frame from like, thighs to head or as far to the side as both arms can reach without turning/stretching?  Do you know?

 

Because guys who have played, announcers etc will say "that was a difficult catch but he needs to make that one" about balls that aren't scored as drops.  And if "catchable" is defined the same way, it might include some balls that most of us would say "yeah, that was a contested catch, but he got his hands on it, he needs to seal that deal".

It’s tough. I remember the pass to Gabe that he had in his hands and it was pulled out by the db. First Miami game, maybe. Should he have caught it, sure. Helluva play by the db. Pretty sure it counts as one of the drops. Then Gabe gives you the catch vs the Steelers.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Dopey

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Do the Bills appreciate Gabe Davis? He’s eligible for a contract extension right now. I haven’t heard anything about that getting done, but I have heard a lot about them acquiring DHop. 

 

To be fair here,

 

1) We don't know how much talk about acquiring DHop comes from serious enquiries by the Bills themselves vs. pundits and fans.  Beane has said many times that often when the Bills are reported to be interested in a player, it means there have been preliminary calls, "is this player actually available?  what are your thoughts on a fair deal for him?" but it's clear there isn't gonna be a meeting of minds so that's all there is.

 

2) Beane did in fact mention needing to extend Gabe Davis (and Ed Oliver) in his combine presser when he talked about not re-signing Tremaine Edmunds.

 

2 minutes ago, Dopey said:

It’s tough. I remember the pass to Gabe that he had in his hands and it was pulled out by the db. First Miami game, maybe. Should he have caught it, sure. Helluva play by the db. Pretty sure it counts as one of the drops. Then Gabe gives you the catch vs the Rams. 

 

 

If you just posted an excerpt of the play you're talking about, that as the Steelers and it counted as a TD.  Gabe caught it, the DB pulled it away, Gabe wrestled it back, TD.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Beck Water

[Dopey]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

To be fair here,

1) I don't know how much talk about acquiring DHop comes from serious enquiries by the Bills themselves vs. pundits and fans

2) Beane did in fact mention needing to extend Gabe Davis (and Ed Oliver) in his combine presser when he talked about not re-signing Tremaine Edmunds.

 

If you just posted an excerpt of the play you're talking about, that as the Steelers and it counted as a TD.  Gabe caught it, the DB pulled it away, Gabe wrestled it back, TD.

Sorry. Pittsburgh. Great concentration and strong hands. We’ll see this year. Again, it’s a contract year. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Dopey

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'd like to suggest Option 3: Patrick Peterson is talking trash and exaggerating for the purpose of talking trash.

 

I think it is true that he knew what was coming on that INT to Gabe Davis in the EZ because it was a read/play the Bills and Josh had been leaning on too often in the red zone, but that was a terrible throw by Josh and if it had been on target, he might be talking differently.

You’re analyzing his own words now? He said what he said based on his own film study of Gabe Davis.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

12 minutes ago, Dopey said:

It’s tough. I remember the pass to Gabe that he had in his hands and it was pulled out by the db. First Miami game, maybe. Should he have caught it, sure. Helluva play by the db. Pretty sure it counts as one of the drops. Then Gabe gives you the catch vs the Steelers.

 

The DB caught it for him. Lol. I take it back. 

[Dopey]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Patrick Peterson told us what the problem is. Gabe only runs a couple routes and he knew what when they were coming.
 

So it’s either Gabe Davis can’t run a full route tree or the OC doesn’t think Gabe can run a full route tree.

Never fell for that line. He’s not Diggs, but he’s better than that. 

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The DB caught it for him. Lol. I take it back. 

Are you saying Gabe would have dropped it?

[Beck Water]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You’re analyzing his own words now? He said what he said based on his own film study of Gabe Davis.

 

No, I'm pointing out that it's credulous to believe that a victorious opponent will provide factual, unbiased analysis when speaking to the press after a game.   He said what he said; whether it truly reflects his film study of Davis, and whether that film study truly reflects Davis capabilities over his 3 years, are different questions.  But if you think that's what he's providing and you choose to take it at face value and reference it in your own evaluation of Davis, You do You.

 

Some folks with more independence in thought and deed might choose to go to Next Gen Charts, particularly from previous years, and look at the actual routes run, or go to Cover1 and look at their various pieces on Davis.

 

It's true that under Dorsey, Davis was running a limited route tree early in the season and that they likely "went to the well too often" on that play.

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Beck Water

[Buffalo_Stampede]

22 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Never fell for that line. He’s not Diggs, but he’s better than that. 

Are you saying Gabe would have dropped it?

Probably if the DB doesn’t grab it for him. 

[Shaw66]

37 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He can’t consistently catch the football when contested. He’s not a good route runner. He’s a deep ball or scramble drill WR. 
 

He’s Marquez Valdes Scantling. 

Thanks.   Those are fair, detailed comments.  I'll comment below, but first I'll say that Dopey's comments just after your response are arguments that carry more weight than yours.   And I'll say that his production was very good, despite your comments. 

 

Contested catches.   I think you're correct when you say "consistently."   He's made plenty of contested catches, but not as many as he should.   He has trouble with bodies around him.   But he is generally a good ball catcher - he uses his hands, he doesn't bobble or juggle too many balls.   Contested catches is something that can be improved.   As Dopey said, this was his first season as a full-time starter, and it's not surprising he had wrinkles in his game.   

 

Route runner.  I'm not sure what this actually means, but I doubt it's a fair criticism.  Brown was not a good route runner, but Davis always seems to end up where Josh expects him to be.   If you're talking about getting separation, it's unreasonable to expect great separation from a #2.   Few guys in the league get great separation, and if Davis got great separation, he'd be a #1.   I think he runs the routes he's supposed, and he often gets open.   If his routes don't get him open, it's because of route design or because he's drawn defender to him, which means Allen knows to go elsewhere. 

 

And I think both points are details to be worked on and improved, but aren't disqualifying, by any means.  800 odd yards and 7 TDs is very nice production out of the #2 spot, and that's what Davis did in his first season of starting.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

19 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

No, I'm pointing out that it's credulous to believe that a victorious opponent will provide factual, unbiased analysis when speaking to the press after a game.   He said what he said; whether it truly reflects his film study of Davis, and whether that film study truly reflects Davis capabilities over his 3 years, are different questions.  But if you think that's what he's providing and you choose to take it at face value and reference it in your own evaluation of Davis, You do You.

 

Some folks with more independence in thought and deed might choose to go to Next Gen Charts, particularly from previous years, and look at the actual routes run, or go to Cover1 and look at their various pieces on Davis.

 

It's true that under Dorsey, Davis was running a limited route tree early in the season and that they likely "went to the well too often" on that play.

 

 

 

It wasn’t just Davis being limited it was McKenzie as well. Understand I was very pro Davis and McKenzie. I understood why they were getting the opportunity. They are what they are. I still think Davis has value as a deep threat, red zone target, and blocker. He’s not fast but he has an ability to get behind the defense.

 

 

 

 

[BananaB]

Gabe has had more opportunities than  most at this point in his career. Bills put a lot of faith in him and he was a disappointment. 55%  catch rate just ain’t good enough for your #2 WR. This was his year to take a big step forward and he didn’t get it done. Heading into year 4 he kind of is who he is at this point, you can’t expect him to get much better.