Brandon Beane admitting fault & not learning from his mistakes.

[Logic]

I feel like it's revisionist history to think that Daboll was ALWAYS a great play caller.

Whether you want to look at his offensive rankings in his pre-Bills years or his first couple of years in Buffalo, it took him time to improve to the point where the Bills had a top offense and he got hired away as a head coach. As recently as the midway point of the 2021 season, there were many Bills fans who couldn't WAIT to ship him out of town. Go back and read gameday threads from 2021 if you don't believe me.

As such, I think it's reasonable to believe that Dorsey can improve in year two as a play caller. We've heard from Josh Allen how much of a perfectionist Ken Dorsey is, and Allen has spent a lot of time with him, so I take him at his word. I'd bet he's already hard at work trying to figure out how to get better next year. I doubt he'd be on McDermott's staff if he wasn't that way.

And if you say "well sure, Logic, Dorsey might get better, but can we afford to wait? Allen is in his prime NOW!", I'd reply that it's not as if we had the 22nd ranked offense this season. The Bills offense was top five in PPG and DVOA. Dorsey ALREADY came pretty strong out of the gate. He obviously needs to improve, and I think it's reasonable to believe that he might.

Note, I'm not saying he'll definitely be the guy. I found his lack of creativity and his personnel usage incredibly frustrating for portions of the year, including the Bengals playoff game. It's possible he never improves. But it's also unreasonable to think that he can't. 

[Augie]

19 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

No it was for Tre who he let sit for another 4 weeks. The point is John Brown nor Beasley should have even been giving a chance. You let the kid see the field early. Get him in the offense if you like him you especially don’t let him hit waivers. 

 

So, were we supposed to play without any DB’s? If you are really paying attention, you’d see this was an unfortunate byproduct of a bizarre rash of injuries in our defensive backfield. Exposing Hodgins to waivers was done out of necessity so we could field a complete team. 

 

Sometimes you just have to got with the least bad option. 

 

Oh, and Tre really wasn’t ready. Hopefully he’s back to his old form next year, because he was not the same guy out there.  

 

.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Augie

[Big Turk]

19 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

"A lot of love for him. Big kid," general manager Brandon Beane said. "Last time we went to Virginia Tech late, it worked out with Wyatt. I screwed it up, but we found a good player there. Not to say this kid is going to be Wyatt, but we're excited about him." This is an article about Wyatt Teller a prospect I thought we hit with & showed great potential said he was a bully & nasty. Clearly Beane wasn’t high on him maybe he didn’t fit the culture. Took what we could get in a trade & he became a pro bowler. Now Hodgins flashed in camp a few times. Brought a huge element to the offense big body,speed, I mean added to Diggs, Davis, McKenzie/Shakir would have gave us some great matchups. The fact Beane let him sit on the PS. Knowing Daboll knows all about Hodgins why not active. You bring in John Brown & Cole Beasley. Both old & already played themselves out of Buffalo. So I have no faith in McDermott or Beane fixing their issues. While our owner clearly is dealing with health issues of his wife a part owner as well. So I don’t see anything being fixed next year. Unless Dorsey has a revelation. 

 

Robert Foster did more than Hodgins did when he got playing time. That should tell you what you need to know. Hodgins is a JAG that probably will not be on the roster as they improve.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Big Turk

[nucci]

7 minutes ago, Logic said:

I feel like it's revisionist history to think that Daboll was ALWAYS a great play caller.

Whether you want to look at his offensive rankings in his pre-Bills years or his first couple of years in Buffalo, it took him time to improve to the point where the Bills had a top offense and he got hired away as a head coach. As recently as the midway point of the 2021 season, there were many Bills fans who couldn't WAIT to ship him out of town. Go back and read gameday threads from 2021 if you don't believe me.

As such, I think it's reasonable to believe that Dorsey can improve in year two as a play caller. We've heard from Josh Allen how much of a perfectionist Ken Dorsey is, and Allen has spent a lot of time with him, so I take him at his word. I'd bet he's already hard at work trying to figure out how to get better next year. I doubt he'd be on McDermott's staff if he wasn't that way.

And if you say "well sure, Logic, Dorsey might get better, but can we afford to wait? Allen is in his prime NOW!", I'd reply that it's not as if we had the 22nd ranked offense this season. The Bills offense was top five in PPG and DVOA. Dorsey ALREADY came pretty strong out of the gate. He obviously needs to improve, and I think it's reasonable to believe that he might.

Note, I'm not saying he'll definitely be the guy. I found his lack of creativity and his personnel usage incredibly frustrating for portions of the year, including the Bengals playoff game. It's possible he never improves. But it's also unreasonable to think that he can't. 

Daboll was extremely frustrating at times but at least we looked organized and well coached with him. I used to yell to run the ball more when he was here

[Logic]

Just now, nucci said:

Daboll was extremely frustrating at times but at least we looked organized and well coached with him. I used to yell to run the ball more when he was here

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

This is right on the money.  As I've thought about the season, I've stopped worrying so much about the defense and begun thinking more about the offense.   As I said the other day, the problem with the loss to the Bengals was not the defense - the Bengals are going to put up 25-30 against almost anyone, and 40 if your defense isn't good.  The problem is that the offense has to score with them.  

 

I agree about the creativity.  That was my complaint about the early Daboll also.   Receivers get open with scheme, not with moves.  Scheme comes from film study, understanding the tendencies of the defense and taking advantage of it.  The Chiefs got two walk-in touchdowns against the Eagles by doing exactly that - they knew how the Eagles would play against certain sets in certain situations, and they designed a play that would take advantage of it.   It's also true about those plays where Kelce cuts back to the weak side, against the flow - they catch the defense reacting to flow and let the defense create the open space for Kelce to move to.  That's creative coaching.  

 

There weren't enough easy completions for Allen in 2022.  Guys weren't getting open by taking advantage of weak spots in the defense.   That's all about film study of the opponent, play design, and implementation.   That's what we didn't see from Dorsey this season.

 

Yes, the Bills need to protect Allen better.  But the genius of Allen is the same as the genius of Mahomes, which is that protected or not, they have the ability to find, and the arm talent to get the ball to, open receivers.   What Dorsey has to do is scheme better to give Allen open receivers. 

[nucci]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

exactly

[Rebel101]

21 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

We had no choice.  From what I understand Josh asked for Beas by name.  That's how little faith he had in the guys on the roster not named Diggs.  Crowder was the only injury there, so for our franchise QB to ask for a dude that had retired is shocking to me and signaled what kind of state our WR corps was in outside of Diggs.  This is why it must be addressed this offseason and why I see it as the biggest need along with the OL.

Josh has too much say. He needs to worry about playing football and not getting Matt Barkley & Gentry on the team. Imo. He also wanted Dorsey. The receivers are given too much freedom to go deep if they want. Coaches are there for a reason as the players. I believe it’s in the definition of their job, one should not be letting the other dictate their decisions. 

2 hours ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

I agree & there was a point in time, when we first got Hines. If he was on the field the defense knew he was getting handed the ball. We can only hope Dorsey gets better & as the rest of the coaching staff. 

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, Logic said:

To be fair, we looked pretty organized under Dorsey, too.

The calls almost always got in on time. There were very rarely delay of games, too many men in the huddle, burned timeouts, etc. Those things are marks of a disorganized offense. 

My principal concern about Dorsey is his lack of creativity and his unimaginative use of personnel. Things like the lack of usage of Cook and Hines in the passing game, lack of usage of Hines AT ALL, lack of "easy looks" for Josh, etc. Like if you watched the Super Bowl, you saw both quarterbacks have a host of wide open receivers due to scheme. Easy layup decisions and throws for the quarterback. There aren't NEARLY enough of those in the Bills offense. I also wish that he would use the speed at his disposal (Cook, Hines, McKenzie) to stretch defenses horizontally, and would use them as eye candy more often to give defenders a second of hesitation.

All in all, I have plenty to gripe at Dorsey about, but disorganization was not on my list. Lack of creativity and poor personnel usage definitely were.

I think this was a key difference between Dorsey and Daboll.   Daboll used the speed available to him and put the ball in the hands of those players to make the plays.  Dorsey went for the long ball too often when the checkdowns with the speed RBs were hardly used.  Also, to be fair,  Cook struggled the first half of the year before coming on.  Hines was taking time to learn the playbook.   May be this year will be different

[ChasBB]

I'm kind of over this trying to find players to "fit the culture".  Go and find the next Conrad Dobler - he's out there somewhere (maybe anyhow).  It's time for McBeane to develop an edge and find players who will slug it out.

Edited February 15, 2023 by ChasBB
spelling

[Lost]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

This is right on the money.  As I've thought about the season, I've stopped worrying so much about the defense and begun thinking more about the offense.   As I said the other day, the problem with the loss to the Bengals was not the defense - the Bengals are going to put up 25-30 against almost anyone, and 40 if your defense isn't good.  The problem is that the offense has to score with them.  

 

I agree about the creativity.  That was my complaint about the early Daboll also.   Receivers get open with scheme, not with moves.  Scheme comes from film study, understanding the tendencies of the defense and taking advantage of it.  The Chiefs got two walk-in touchdowns against the Eagles by doing exactly that - they knew how the Eagles would play against certain sets in certain situations, and they designed a play that would take advantage of it.   It's also true about those plays where Kelce cuts back to the weak side, against the flow - they catch the defense reacting to flow and let the defense create the open space for Kelce to move to.  That's creative coaching.  

 

There weren't enough easy completions for Allen in 2022.  Guys weren't getting open by taking advantage of weak spots in the defense.   That's all about film study of the opponent, play design, and implementation.   That's what we didn't see from Dorsey this season.

 

Yes, the Bills need to protect Allen better.  But the genius of Allen is the same as the genius of Mahomes, which is that protected or not, they have the ability to find, and the arm talent to get the ball to, open receivers.   What Dorsey has to do is scheme better to give Allen open receivers. 

 

This is part of what I don't understand with Dorsey.   Early on in the season they seemed to be running pretty specific schemes and they worked.   I'm pretty sure they game planned week 1 vs Rams entirely around Aaron Donald.  Almost all the offensive plays were 3 step drop release.  Allen rarely held on to the ball for more than 2.5 seconds.   Then midway through the season we just went completely away from all of that and started playing backyard football.   What happened?

[LABILLBACKER]

8 hours ago, Augie said:

 

So, were we supposed to play without any DB’s? If you are really paying attention, you’d see this was an unfortunate byproduct of a bizarre rash of injuries in our defensive backfield. Exposing Hodgins to waivers was done out of necessity so we could field a complete team. 

 

Sometimes you just have to got with the least bad option. 

 

Oh, and Tre really wasn’t ready. Hopefully he’s back to his old form next year, because he was not the same guy out there.  

 

.

Yeah we had no choice but to expose Hodgins. Micah, Jordan, Dane and Tre were all unavailable. We had to call up bodies.  

47 minutes ago, ChasBB said:

I'm kind of over this trying to find players to "fit the culture".  Go and find the next Conrad Dobler - he's out there somewhere (maybe anyhow).  It's time for McBeane to develop an edge and find players who will slug it out.

I'm personally done watching Sean draft the "all Church league".....

[billsfan3482]

On 2/13/2023 at 4:38 PM, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

100% this.   The offense started the season strong and then went to looking lost.   There is Zero creativity, no ability to counter a defense. Its, try a run or Allen throw a 50 yarder.

If Dorsey was improving and evolving we would see it.  I cant stand the chiefs, but I'm jealous of their great coaching staff that's gets it DONE!!

2 super bowls for them..   While bills fans, are banking on an inexperienced OC somehow improving his 2nd year to something great..

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by billsfan3482

[Patrick Duffy]

17 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

This is part of what I don't understand with Dorsey.   Early on in the season they seemed to be running pretty specific schemes and they worked.   I'm pretty sure they game planned week 1 vs Rams entirely around Aaron Donald.  Almost all the offensive plays were 3 step drop release.  Allen rarely held on to the ball for more than 2.5 seconds.   Then midway through the season we just went completely away from all of that and started playing backyard football.   What happened?

 

Maybe Defenses started to figure him out and adjusted. Dorsey seemed to have trouble when he needed to be creative enough to counter it with his own adjustments

[Augie]

6 minutes ago, billsfan3482 said:

100% this.   The offense started the season strong and then went to looking lost.   There is Zero creativity, no ability to counter a defense. Its, try a run or Allen throw a 50 yarder.

If Dorsey was improving and evolving we would see it.  I cant stand the chiefs, but I'm jealous of their great coaching staff that's gets it DONE!!

2 super bowls for them..   While bills fans, are banking on an inexperienced OC somehow improving his 2nd year to something great..

 

 

 

I don’t know where to find it, but did you see Josh’s stats before and after the elbow injury. If you recall, we KILLED it early! I am NOT blaming everything on that, but it was a striking difference.

 

The offense needs to complement itself better. As I’ve heard others complain, it’s just a bunch of plays being called, with no identity. The pass should set up the run, and the run should set up the pass. OH, and why are screens and draws impossible? 

 

BUT, it’s OK to be a bit jealous of a first ballot HOF HC. They don’t come around that often, but at least we are about to see a couple retire. 

[John from Riverside]

20 hours ago, Logic said:

I feel like it's revisionist history to think that Daboll was ALWAYS a great play caller.

Whether you want to look at his offensive rankings in his pre-Bills years or his first couple of years in Buffalo, it took him time to improve to the point where the Bills had a top offense and he got hired away as a head coach. As recently as the midway point of the 2021 season, there were many Bills fans who couldn't WAIT to ship him out of town. Go back and read gameday threads from 2021 if you don't believe me.

As such, I think it's reasonable to believe that Dorsey can improve in year two as a play caller. We've heard from Josh Allen how much of a perfectionist Ken Dorsey is, and Allen has spent a lot of time with him, so I take him at his word. I'd bet he's already hard at work trying to figure out how to get better next year. I doubt he'd be on McDermott's staff if he wasn't that way.

And if you say "well sure, Logic, Dorsey might get better, but can we afford to wait? Allen is in his prime NOW!", I'd reply that it's not as if we had the 22nd ranked offense this season. The Bills offense was top five in PPG and DVOA. Dorsey ALREADY came pretty strong out of the gate. He obviously needs to improve, and I think it's reasonable to believe that he might.

Note, I'm not saying he'll definitely be the guy. I found his lack of creativity and his personnel usage incredibly frustrating for portions of the year, including the Bengals playoff game. It's possible he never improves. But it's also unreasonable to think that he can't. 

I seem to remember us doing a lot of complaining that Brian would get too cute in his playcalling

[T master]

So we have another McD & Beane are both a POS post lets fire them & start all over surprise ??? I think not .

[Gregg]

The Bills model to build a championship caliber team is straight out of South Park.

 

1. Step one - collect underpants (Allen)

2 Step two -??????

3.Step three - win Super Bowl.

[Don Otreply]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:04 PM, nucci said:

How did he not learn anything from Daboll and keep most of that offense?

Ego, 

[Don Otreply]

22 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

This is right on the money.  As I've thought about the season, I've stopped worrying so much about the defense and begun thinking more about the offense.   As I said the other day, the problem with the loss to the Bengals was not the defense - the Bengals are going to put up 25-30 against almost anyone, and 40 if your defense isn't good.  The problem is that the offense has to score with them.  

 

I agree about the creativity.  That was my complaint about the early Daboll also.   Receivers get open with scheme, not with moves.  Scheme comes from film study, understanding the tendencies of the defense and taking advantage of it.  The Chiefs got two walk-in touchdowns against the Eagles by doing exactly that - they knew how the Eagles would play against certain sets in certain situations, and they designed a play that would take advantage of it.   It's also true about those plays where Kelce cuts back to the weak side, against the flow - they catch the defense reacting to flow and let the defense create the open space for Kelce to move to.  That's creative coaching.  

 

There weren't enough easy completions for Allen in 2022.  Guys weren't getting open by taking advantage of weak spots in the defense.   That's all about film study of the opponent, play design, and implementation.   That's what we didn't see from Dorsey this season.

 

Yes, the Bills need to protect Allen better.  But the genius of Allen is the same as the genius of Mahomes, which is that protected or not, they have the ability to find, and the arm talent to get the ball to, open receivers.   What Dorsey has to do is scheme better to give Allen open receivers. 

Agree, Dorsey ended up making the offense very predictable with his play calling, and personnel usage, his schemes overall lacked creativity, and made winning games harder than it should have been as the regular season progressed, and made it extremely difficult to win in the post season, as we all witnessed, we all hope the proverbial light goes on for him. 
 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited February 15, 2023 by Don Otreply