JA finishes #2 in ESPN’s top 100 for 2022 (other Bills made the list as well)

[GoBills808]

17 minutes ago, Billl said:

What are these factors that have held him back, and what can be done about them?  Brian Daboll just won coach of the year, and McDermott finished 4th.  The Bills have had a top 5 scoring defense the past 3 seasons.  He’s got a #1 WR and a ProBowl TE.  He was the preseason favorite for MVP.  Buffalo was the preseason SuperBowl favorite.  He’s had absolute stability on his coaching staff until this season where he basically hand-picked his new OC.  I’m just not seeing this huge disadvantage he has to overcome year in and year out.

Defensive minded HC and draft priorities 

 

Multiple late season inclement home weather games on average

 

Mediocre group of pass catchers

 

Shouldering an outsize percentage of rush output

 

Perennially mediocre offensive line

 

[78thealltimegreat]

30 minutes ago, Billl said:

What are these factors that have held him back, and what can be done about them?  Brian Daboll just won coach of the year, and McDermott finished 4th.  The Bills have had a top 5 scoring defense the past 3 seasons.  He’s got a #1 WR and a ProBowl TE.  He was the preseason favorite for MVP.  Buffalo was the preseason SuperBowl favorite.  He’s had absolute stability on his coaching staff until this season where he basically hand-picked his new OC.  I’m just not seeing this huge disadvantage he has to overcome year in and year out.

His offensive line is dog**** and his second and third receivers are XFL level to the point they had to get two guys out of retirement to play down the stretch 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

If you had to clone one guy 53 times and fill out a roster, he’d probably be the overwhelming first choice.  If I were coaching him, I’d try to turn him into a Roethlisberger style player and force him into that box for at least the first 10-12 games of the season.  It might cost the team a game or 2, but regular season games no longer matter at this point.  

 

It would make him a better QB and potentially add years to his career.  He took an absolute beating against the Bengals.  

 

 

Unfortunately Allen doesn't have the playmakers or the blocking that Big Ben had for much of his career.

 

 

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

9 hours ago, Beast said:

You know what’s funny? You clearly not being a Bills fan and coming here with replies to threads clearly made to piss people

off….and it is allowed.

The bolded....

[MPT]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

What are these factors that have held him back, and what can be done about them?  Brian Daboll just won coach of the year, and McDermott finished 4th.  The Bills have had a top 5 scoring defense the past 3 seasons.  He’s got a #1 WR and a ProBowl TE.  He was the preseason favorite for MVP.  Buffalo was the preseason SuperBowl favorite.  He’s had absolute stability on his coaching staff until this season where he basically hand-picked his new OC.  I’m just not seeing this huge disadvantage he has to overcome year in and year out.

 

He's had a below average offensive line every year he's been in the NFL. He has no reliable receivers other than Diggs (who has also dropped more than a few perfect passes). He is half of his team's rushing offense. His OC can't scheme anyone open that doesn't require him evading pressure for over 5 seconds. His team's defense requires him to be absolutely perfect in the playoffs. 

 

No other team asks their QB to do as much as the Bills expect from Allen. 

[Big Turk]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Unfortunately Allen doesn't have the playmakers or the blocking that Big Ben had for much of his career.

 

 

 

 

 

Since when did Big Ben have good pass protection? He was one of the most sacked QBs in the NFL most years and his lines were awful at pass blocking.

 

It's so annoying how stuff just gets written about players 10 years later that has no basis in reality.

 

He even led the league in sacks taken once, had 9 straight seasons with 30+ sacks, and 4+ seasons with 45+ sacks.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

Edited February 12, 2023 by Big Turk

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Since when did Big Ben have good pass protection? He was one of the most sacked QBs in the NFL most years and his lines were awful at pass blocking.

 

It's so annoying how stuff just gets written about players 10 years later that has no basis in reality.

 

He even led the league in sacks taken once, had 9 straight seasons with 30+ sacks, and 4+ seasons with 45+ sacks.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

 

 

Yeah.........you're just wrong and showing a lack of what we now recognize as common sense.

 

Sacks are largely a QB statistic.

 

Anyone who watched that lumbering giant refuse to give up on plays like nobody else in the league in his first 10 years knows why he got sacked a lot.

 

When Goodell forced new protections in the passing game in mid-season of 2010 it was mainly because Rodgers and Roethlisberger kept getting concussed and they were worried that the 2 seeming successors to Brady/Manning weren't going to last.

 

The thing was,  most of the big hits they were taking were outside of the pocket because they just wouldn't give up on plays..........things Brady/Manning didn't do.

 

Two QB's who simply held the ball too long by NFL standards ultimately caused massive changes to the rules of the game that then resulted in 7 QB's having top 25 all-time passing yardage seasons the following year.   

 

I hope I am not annoying you with my lack of real knowledge of the time period that you box score scouted.

 

Back to line one........common sense........as Roethlisberger aged,  his offensive lines got WORSE.........and yet his sacks dropped dramatically until his pathetic final season.

 

 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah.........you're just wrong and showing a lack of what we now recognize as common sense.

 

Sacks are largely a QB statistic.

 

Anyone who watched that lumbering giant refuse to give up on plays like nobody else in the league in his first 10 years knows why he got sacked a lot.

 

When Goodell forced new protections in the passing game in mid-season of 2010 it was mainly because Rodgers and Roethlisberger kept getting concussed and they were worried that the 2 seeming successors to Brady/Manning weren't going to last.

 

The thing was,  most of the big hits they were taking were outside of the pocket because they just wouldn't give up on plays..........things Brady/Manning didn't do.

 

Two QB's who simply held the ball too long by NFL standards ultimately caused massive changes to the rules of the game that then resulted in 7 QB's having top 25 all-time passing yardage seasons the following year.   

 

I hope I am not annoying you with my lack of real knowledge of the time period that you box score scouted.

 

Back to line one........common sense........as Roethlisberger aged,  his offensive lines got WORSE.........and yet his sacks dropped dramatically until his pathetic final season.

 

 

 

Trying to make up more stories I see...perhaps this will refresh your memory. article is from 2011 talking about their "awful offensive line" being nothing new.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/868631-pittsburgh-steelers-bad-offensive-line-is-nothing-new

Edited February 12, 2023 by Big Turk

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah.........you're just wrong and showing a lack of what we now recognize as common sense.

 

Sacks are largely a QB statistic.

 

Anyone who watched that lumbering giant refuse to give up on plays like nobody else in the league in his first 10 years knows why he got sacked a lot.

 

When Goodell forced new protections in the passing game in mid-season of 2010 it was mainly because Rodgers and Roethlisberger kept getting concussed and they were worried that the 2 seeming successors to Brady/Manning weren't going to last.

 

The thing was,  most of the big hits they were taking were outside of the pocket because they just wouldn't give up on plays..........things Brady/Manning didn't do.

 

Two QB's who simply held the ball too long by NFL standards ultimately caused massive changes to the rules of the game that then resulted in 7 QB's having top 25 all-time passing yardage seasons the following year.   

 

I hope I am not annoying you with my lack of real knowledge of the time period that you box score scouted.

 

Back to line one........common sense........as Roethlisberger aged,  his offensive lines got WORSE.........and yet his sacks dropped dramatically until his pathetic final season.

 

 

 

 I agree and was going to post something similar. Ben repeatedly held onto the ball and took sacks & huge hits in hopes of hitting the big play downfield. I just had this argument with 29 years of fanhood right before week 18.

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Trying to make up more stories I see...perhaps this will refresh your memory. article is from 2011 talking about their "awful offensive line" being nothing new.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/868631-pittsburgh-steelers-bad-offensive-line-is-nothing-new

 

 

Here is another bit of info from that time since you are apparently a newb...........bleacher report links were not allowed on TSW back then.........because the bleacher "reporters" were just people posting thoughts..........often more nonsensical than the average TSW thread starter.........but presenting them as articles/journalism.

 

You basically just referenced a post from a Steelers message board. 

 

Show me a fan base who doesn't think their OL sucked in retrospect and that team was probably one or either of the teams in the SB.

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

So do we like ESPN now?

10 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Since when did Big Ben have good pass protection? He was one of the most sacked QBs in the NFL most years and his lines were awful at pass blocking.

 

It's so annoying how stuff just gets written about players 10 years later that has no basis in reality.

 

He even led the league in sacks taken once, had 9 straight seasons with 30+ sacks, and 4+ seasons with 45+ sacks.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

A decent % of those sacks were on Big Ben too. He’s a playmaker so he holds the ball a long time. Brady never gets sacks because he gets right of the ball so quickly and will just take the 5 yard dump off. This is one of the “knocks”  against Burrow. Dude wants to make the big play. Our o line certainly wasn’t good but Allen doesn’t always help them because dude is a gamer and wants to make the big play. And with him, you have to live with it because he makes so much good happen.

[Billl]

32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So do we like ESPN now?

A decent % of those sacks were on Big Ben too. He’s a playmaker so he holds the ball a long time. Brady never gets sacks because he gets right of the ball so quickly and will just take the 5 yard dump off. This is one of the “knocks”  against Burrow. Dude wants to make the big play. Our o line certainly wasn’t good but Allen doesn’t always help them because dude is a gamer and wants to make the big play. And with him, you have to live with it because he makes so much good happen.

This is exactly why I said they need to rein him in during the first 10 or so games of the season.  Stop calling designed runs, and tell him to stay in the pocket or throw it away.  He can always use his legs in the postseason, but the abuse he takes on a weekly basis is unsustainable.  Ben was always banged up, but he lasted a lot longer than Cam.  Josh plays more like Cam, and he’s likely going to have a similar career arc if this continues.

[GoBills808]

Steelers have historically had good offensive lines

 

Pouncey was a stud, Decastro was a stalwart, they had strong production out of guys like Villanueva and Foster before him going back to Faneca

[78thealltimegreat]

11 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Since when did Big Ben have good pass protection? He was one of the most sacked QBs in the NFL most years and his lines were awful at pass blocking.

 

It's so annoying how stuff just gets written about players 10 years later that has no basis in reality.

 

He even led the league in sacks taken once, had 9 straight seasons with 30+ sacks, and 4+ seasons with 45+ sacks.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

When Big Ben was in trouble his first few seasons he simply turned around and handed off to a guy in Canton Ohio… Mr Bettis…which kinda helped his development 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Trying to make up more stories I see...perhaps this will refresh your memory. article is from 2011 talking about their "awful offensive line" being nothing new.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/868631-pittsburgh-steelers-bad-offensive-line-is-nothing-new

A challenge for you: go back and look at the sack rates for Flutie and Johnson for the years 1998-2000. You’ll note that they are very, very different despite rhe fact that both QBs played behind the same line. @BADOLBILZ is absolutely right here — some QBs are really good at self-sacking, and Big Ben was one of those guys. And almost all fanbases outside of the early 1990s Cowboys and 2022 Eagles fanbases think their lines have massive holes.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

This is exactly why I said they need to rein him in during the first 10 or so games of the season.  Stop calling designed runs, and tell him to stay in the pocket or throw it away.  He can always use his legs in the postseason, but the abuse he takes on a weekly basis is unsustainable.  Ben was always banged up, but he lasted a lot longer than Cam.  Josh plays more like Cam, and he’s likely going to have a similar career arc if this continues.

 

 

The other option is put more capable players around Allen on offense so he isn't compelled to run so much.

 

Trust me..........Juju is on an entirely different level as a slot receiver than Isaiah McKenzie..........if the Bills had Juju instead of Lil' Dummy in the KC game this year it's a decisive victory instead of a last second field goal to win.    McKenzie literally cost the Bills 14 points that day.    

 

And that kind of receiving buffoonery was too much of the story this season.

 

They don't block well enough to have a drop-off in functional reliability from a true WR1 in Diggs to a WR3-4 in Gabe Davis......who is basically a much slower version of KC's Marques Valdes Scantling.

 

Much of the complaints about Davis were about his hands but that lack of speed really showed up this season when defensive backs were able to be more physical at the catch point and Davis ended up dropping perhaps hundreds of yards worth of passes that would have been PI calls in 2020-2021.    One of them alone traveled 70 yards in the air in the Meadowlands.    His stock really tanked in a year where numerous handsy college DB's walked in and found the transition to the NFL very easy.        

 

[transient]

22 hours ago, Billl said:

What are these factors that have held him back, and what can be done about them?  Brian Daboll just won coach of the year, and McDermott finished 4th.  The Bills have had a top 5 scoring defense the past 3 seasons.  He’s got a #1 WR and a ProBowl TE.  He was the preseason favorite for MVP.  Buffalo was the preseason SuperBowl favorite.  He’s had absolute stability on his coaching staff until this season where he basically hand-picked his new OC.  I’m just not seeing this huge disadvantage he has to overcome year in and year out.

A ProBowl TE. By that logic he also has a ProBowl guard in Saffold who is better suited as a matador and Baltimore has a ProBowl backup QB. I’m not hating on Knox, but a ProBowl distinction is worth about as much as the gum I just scraped off the bottom of my shoe. 

[78thealltimegreat]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The other option is put more capable players around Allen on offense so he isn't compelled to run so much.

 

Trust me..........Juju is on an entirely different level as a slot receiver than Isaiah McKenzie..........if the Bills had Juju instead of Lil' Dummy in the KC game this year it's a decisive victory instead of a last second field goal to win.    McKenzie literally cost the Bills 14 points that day.    

 

And that kind of receiving buffoonery was too much of the story this season.

 

They don't block well enough to have a drop-off in functional reliability from a true WR1 in Diggs to a WR3-4 in Gabe Davis......who is basically a much slower version of KC's Marques Valdes Scantling.

 

Much of the complaints about Davis were about his hands but that lack of speed really showed up this season when defensive backs were able to be more physical at the catch point and Davis ended up dropping perhaps hundreds of yards worth of passes that would have been PI calls in 2020-2021.    One of them alone traveled 70 yards in the air in the Meadowlands.    His stock really tanked in a year where numerous handsy college DB's walked in and found the transition to the NFL very easy.        

 

Amen get him guys who can do more after the catch so he doesn’t have to be the running game and in reality be the walking short passing game either 

[LABILLBACKER]

17 hours ago, MPT said:

 

He's had a below average offensive line every year he's been in the NFL. He has no reliable receivers other than Diggs (who has also dropped more than a few perfect passes). He is half of his team's rushing offense. His OC can't scheme anyone open that doesn't require him evading pressure for over 5 seconds. His team's defense requires him to be absolutely perfect in the playoffs. 

 

No other team asks their QB to do as much as the Bills expect from Allen. 

And there lies this tragedy.  Why can't McBeane see this??  Why have they neglected surrounding Josh with what he deserves?? Meanwhile they're trying to build some Ravens defense by drafting defensive busts.  

[NewEra]

23 hours ago, Billl said:

What are these factors that have held him back, and what can be done about them?  Brian Daboll just won coach of the year, and McDermott finished 4th.  The Bills have had a top 5 scoring defense the past 3 seasons.  He’s got a #1 WR and a ProBowl TE.  He was the preseason favorite for MVP.  Buffalo was the preseason SuperBowl favorite.  He’s had absolute stability on his coaching staff until this season where he basically hand-picked his new OC.  I’m just not seeing this huge disadvantage he has to overcome year in and year out.

-He has one of the worst offensive lines in football.  People can say w/e they want.  Spencer Brown is an atrocious pass blocker.  Saffold might be worse.  Bates is a good backup.  Our best lineman (Dawkins) got destroyed on a 3 man rush on the seasons most important 3rd down.  
 

like you said-  Josh took an absolute beating vs the bengals.  Coaching him up could’ve saved him some of that beating, but our offensive offensive line was the main culprit. 

 

-We also have no speed and separation @ WR other than Diggs.  Thanks to having no speed and no one to worry about (other than Knox) opposing defenses can bracket Diggs and not think twice.  Davis is just a guy.  The slots are league minimum free agent signings.  We don’t have anyone else.  
 

- rookie OC who had never called plays in his lifetime.  It showed.  We have the best player in the league leading our offense, yet our offense had no identity…..other than Let Josh cook.  We made investments in adding RBs with great receiving ability…..yet the incumbent RB had 38 catches the the 2 offseason investments had 25 between them.  I just don’t understand.  
 

so what held him back-  

-Poor OL

-serious lack of speed and separation @ WR other than Diggs.   Untimely drops all season.

-Lacking an experienced play caller that knows how to use his weapons.