This place has become poisonous

[hemma]

I think it is time to stop whining and start talking about the Combine.

 

Back to work.

[Billsfan1972]

55 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

This is where I lie and why I have stayed clear since the CIN loss.

 

Did the Bills fail their goal, the fans dream, most predictions of a SB win? Yes. 

Are there things they need to improve on and legitimate questions ranging from coaching to draft? Yes.

Did they still overcome a sh*t ton of obstacles in every possible and win a lot? Also Yes.

And as you said would most fanbases take having McD, Beane, & Josh? Yes outside a select few who happen to also be really angry they lost or didn't make the SB or your KC.

I know people want it to be a black and white thing but like many things in life it is a far more complex grayed story and analysis. 

 

I have said numerous times I have zero issue with being objective on things the Bills need to work or and legitimate questions including whether the DC should stay, why the head coach tenses in playoff games, and most importantly why they just came out so flat in a game at home in game that would've give you a neutral field shot to slay the dragon. I think that is fine to discuss but it needs to be articulated with some logic not "Fire this guy" "burn it down" "Without Josh their the worst team in football" etc... 

 

Everyone complaining about McD but worship Reid forget up until 2019 Reid was considered a good offensive coach who couldn't close the deal. 2 SB wins later and now he is brilliant and that doesn't matter. Heck had the Bills won the SB this year all the people ignoring the injuries and adversity would've wrote it as part of story on how this team overcame. I am happy that the standard for many is SB or bust as opposed to just being happy they made the playoffs. They have a good team, they have a great QB, and they have a pretty good coach and GM who you should want more from. But find a healthy ground of reality also and maybe step away that football isn't the end all be all and your not fixing everything or winning the SB in one second.

And have the Bills made the SB?  

 

This get's so old as it is a circuitous debate that all really revolves around one person, McD. 

 

1. How much control does he have over the GM and thus drafting? 

2. Is he too focused on the Defense? 

3. Is he too Loyal to Frazier? 

4. Can he coach in the moment? 

5. What the heck happened those 13 seconds? 

6. How has he helped the offense?

7. Is it McD or Allen responsible for these last 4 years?

 

To some here they have this "fake" narrative (yes I'm going to exaggerate here) that he took over a 2-14 team in 2017 and with only a pair of pliers & chicken wiring took the Bills to the Playoffs singlehandedly and thus now has a pass to only get to the playoffs, because then you know it's just a crapshoot.  

 

Others think that with Josh Allen, he struck gold and has done not enough to develop or protect him and is too focused on the defense.

 

90% agree you can't fire him (nor should you) and some are convinced that he's run his course and what the Bills are left with is a competitive team, that with be one of the top 4 in the league, but they'll always be an excuse and something will always derail them. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Shaw66]

51 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

There is a difference of people rationally discussing the honest things that need to improve vs a total hysterical flip out and declaring the end before the new season even begins.  

 

I agree, the board was impossible to be around the week after the game.  I myself took some time to let the disappointment calm down before I came back to what was surely going to be a cess pool of negativity...which it was.  

 

But I do think that has died down quite a bit and there are a lot more quality conversations going on now regarding this team strengths and weaknesses.  The overly negative crowd is never going away, but I think their nonsense is starting to get drowned out by better convos lately.  

 

This team will always be a contender with an elite player like Josh and a GM committed to building a winner.  Doesn't mean all the right decisions, plays, etc will be just right, but we will be someone to contend with for the foreseeable future.  The question is what is keeping this team from getting over that hump and what can we do to change that before other teams keep improving around us as they try and over take us.  

 

Those are all fair questions heading into an offseason where we were 13-3 (8 points from being undefeated) and then laid down like we were the 7th seed despite being at home, with motivation (Hamlin), in bad weather (allegedly an advantage for us), with our opponent having a decimated OL.  We can't keep doing the same things and expecting different results.  

With you all the way until the last sentence.  McDermott will keep doing the same thing, which is following his process.   His process is designed to have a continuously improving team.  Doesn't mean there won't be ups and downs, but it does mean that over time it will get better.   McDermott expects that by continuing to follow the process he WILL get different results.  

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

15 minutes ago, hemma said:

I think it is time to stop whining and start talking about the Combine.

 

Back to work.

I never clocked out!

[Billsfan1972]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

With you all the way until the last sentence.  McDermott will keep doing the same thing, which is following his process.   His process is designed to have a continuously improving team.  Doesn't mean there won't be ups and downs, but it does mean that over time it will get better.   McDermott expects that by continuing to follow the process he WILL get different results.  

 

 

Stop with the Process.  Shaw you're one of the best people on here, thoughtful, intelligent, with an eye for the game, but have drank the McD Koolaid.  

 

He has invested way too much in the defense, got so lucky with Allen & added one offensive player in Diggs.  The rest has been meh at best. 

[corta765]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And have the Bills made the SB?  

 

This get's so old as it is a circuitous debate that all really revolves around one person, McD. 

 

1. How much control does he have over the GM and thus drafting? 

2. Is he too focused on the Defense? 

3. Is he too Loyal to Frazier? 

4. Can he coach in the moment? 

5. What the heck happened those 13 seconds? 

6. How has he helped the offense?

7. Is it McD or Allen responsible for these last 4 years?

 

To some here they have this "fake" narrative (yes I'm going to exaggerate here) that he took over a 2-14 team in 2017 and with only a pair of pliers & chicken wiring took the Bills to the Playoffs singlehandedly and thus now has a pass to only get to the playoffs, because then you know it's just a crapshoot.  

 

Others think that with Josh Allen, he struck gold and has done not enough to develop or protect him and is too focused on the defense.

 

90% agree you can't fire him (nor should you) and some are convinced that he's run his course and what the Bills are left with is a competitive team, that with be one of the top 4 in the league, but they'll always be an excuse and something will always derail tem. 

 

He is the crux of it and people will spin the context for support or against him how they want it. I think it 100% accurate to say the honeymoon is beyond over and the proverbial hot seat at least is in the city even though it might now be here now. If the team keeps winning I doubt he goes anywhere even if they cant crack a SB birth. It gets very interesting if they were to regress though and where ownership goes. Right now they are printing money, they are relevant as heck, and they are a contender in the big league eyes. The only way I think they move own is if those things start to change.

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

He is the crux of it and people will spin the context for support or against him how they want it. I think it 100% accurate to say the honeymoon is beyond over and the proverbial hot seat at least is in the city even though it might now be here now. If the team keeps winning I doubt he goes anywhere even if they cant crack a SB birth. It gets very interesting if they were to regress though and where ownership goes. Right now they are printing money, they are relevant as heck, and they are a contender in the big league eyes. The only way I think they move own is if those things start to change.

And I want the Bills to win the SB in 2023 9well February 2024), so yep win in spite of McD.......😉

 

Do you really think that Fans "Hate" McD more then their want for the Bills to win a SB?   

[corta765]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Do you really think that Fans "Hate" McD more then their want for the Bills to win a SB?   

 

I do not think fans hate him at all. I do think there is a lot of frustration because of how the team lost and some coaching decisions from him. But from most advanced analytics I read he is like a top 5-10 guy there so you would do a lot lot worse. The expectations heading into this year were so heavy SB or bust, when it didn't happen someone is the fall guy. Mind you in the weeks prior most fans wanted him to be coach of the year for what they did overcome lol

 

Lets be honest it is easier to lose in a heartbreaker like 13 seconds where your QB looks like god and you are so close then to fall so flat vs CIN. That loss just seeps into you because it opens far more questions (some valid some not) when it is possible you just had a bad day which overexposed your flaws. Countless examples of football teams having a bad day at the worst moment;  with the expectation's and what happened McD becomes target 1.

 

Again to me camelot still existed in some form with the team and coach into this year. That is no longer there, but people have swung a bit too far the other way too.

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

He is the crux of it and people will spin the context for support or against him how they want it. I think it 100% accurate to say the honeymoon is beyond over and the proverbial hot seat at least is in the city even though it might now be here now. If the team keeps winning I doubt he goes anywhere even if they cant crack a SB birth. It gets very interesting if they were to regress though and where ownership goes. Right now they are printing money, they are relevant as heck, and they are a contender in the big league eyes. The only way I think they move own is if those things start to change.

I don't know if the hot seat is anywhere on the horizon.  

 

It would be interesting to know what the annual post-season dialog is like among Steeler fans.   That's the ultimate continuity-based franchise.  Tomlin has never been below .500, but he hasn't won a Super Bowl since 2008 and hasn't been to the Super Bowl since 2010.   Have the owners settled for just winning more than they lose, getting to the Super Bowl every decade or so?   Or do they recognize that a lot of things have to fall right for even the right coach to win it all?   

 

If it were easy to be the Chiefs, everyone would be the Chiefs.   What's wrong with the Bengals?  Why can't they win the big one?   They're clearly regressing - didn't beat the Chiefs this time around.  Maybe it's time to think about a new coach there.   

 

Well-run teams take a long time to get rid of winning coaches.  

[corta765]

28 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It would be interesting to know what the annual post-season dialog is like among Steeler fans.   That's the ultimate continuity-based franchise.  Tomlin has never been below .500, but he hasn't won a Super Bowl since 2008 and hasn't been to the Super Bowl since 2010.   Have the owners settled for just winning more than they lose, getting to the Super Bowl every decade or so?   Or do they recognize that a lot of things have to fall right for even the right coach to win it all?   

 

I have a buddy who is a huge Steeler fan and sometimes the idea of moving in is attractive because of change and getting different results. On the flip side he knew they were not a playoff team and Tomlin was doing well to break in the new pieces as they transitioned their team this season and Pickett showed some real promise. I think in terms of SB they know it is a little of everything luck, good coaching, roster is set in the right way, and it takes a while for it all to fall together. He thinks it is insane when Bills fans bring up moving on from McD because it really has not been that long he has been the coach by their standards.

 

I think it is far easier though to have patience when you have won a ring (rings in their case). In a different universe if Norwood made his kick I think you would see a far more patient group of fans that wouldn't be freaking as much. Josh and this group has shown this could be the time so everyone wants it now and I get that.

[Billsfan1972]

57 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

I do not think fans hate him at all. I do think there is a lot of frustration because of how the team lost and some coaching decisions from him. But from most advanced analytics I read he is like a top 5-10 guy there so you would do a lot lot worse. The expectations heading into this year were so heavy SB or bust, when it didn't happen someone is the fall guy. Mind you in the weeks prior most fans wanted him to be coach of the year for what they did overcome lol

 

Lets be honest it is easier to lose in a heartbreaker like 13 seconds where your QB looks like god and you are so close then to fall so flat vs CIN. That loss just seeps into you because it opens far more questions (some valid some not) when it is possible you just had a bad day which overexposed your flaws. Countless examples of football teams having a bad day at the worst moment;  with the expectation's and what happened McD becomes target 1.

 

Again to me camelot still existed in some form with the team and coach into this year. That is no longer there, but people have swung a bit too far the other way too.

Agreed and maybe as said better to go into 2023 as just one of the SB contenders, as opposed to the favourite.  

 

But sorry 13 seconds was worse then anything (I canceled my SB party because of it).

 

What the Cincy game did was unfortunately validate a lot of what many said was apparent from the second half of the GB game on and what McD didn't address or have answers for and in the Cincy game seemingly did absolutely nothing to turn it around.

 

BTW let's compare that to yesterday and the exact same scenario.  KC down 10 pts at half and failed in their two minute offense to end the half and they come out with urgency and score.  They allow a FG and then score again. 

 

They came out of the halftime and reacted like champs and the Bills as stated in the same scenario were still in it and preverbally 'rolled over".   

Edited February 13, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[corta765]

15 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Agreed and maybe as said better to go into 2023 as just one of the SB contenders, as opposed to the favourite.  

 

But sorry 13 seconds was worse then anything (I canceled my SB party because of it).

 

What the Cincy game did was unfortunately validate a lot of what many said was apparent from the second half of the GB game on and what McD didn't address or have answers for and in the Cincy game seemingly did absolutely nothing to turn it around.

 

BTW let's compare that to yesterday and the exact same scenario.  KC down 10 pts at half and failed in their two minute offense to end the half and they come out with urgency and score.  They allow a FG and then score again. 

 

The came out of the halftime and reacted like champs and the Bills were still in it and preverbally 'rolled over".   

 

I 100% get that and agree. KC loss the 1st time conservativeness on FG instead of trying for TDs was frustrating, last year it was 13 seconds with how that played out, and this year just flat and the entire team, coaching staff, billy the buffalo stunk across the board. He will obviously get more changes but I do understand fans saying "show us you have learned from this and are not repeating the same frustrations".

 

I have thought the Bills had enough distractions entering 22' as favorites in the media and the amount they embraced it before things actually started going wild during the season. I too have kinda thought as I created in another thread a more focused less distraction driven season might be the right antidote for the team and fans.

[Low Positive]

The Bills are by far the most successful team that I support but this message board is the most negative and toxic of all that I participate in. I think its a combination of the last game of the year being such a letdown and the fact that only the negative posters are currently participating. There is also a drought-era reflex of assuming that every player on every other team is better than Bills players. It and you cool and savvy back then. BTW, the Bills needs one OG and a offensive playmaker to be right back in the mix again.  

Edited February 13, 2023 by FrenchConnection

[vincec]

On 2/11/2023 at 8:22 PM, wppete said:

I think it’s just that the OP is very sensitive and doesn’t quite understand how boards work….. The Eagle boards are a sight to behold that’s for sure 😂 

 

 

I occasionally visit other fan boards to try and get some first hand perspective on things and TBD is, by far, the mildest fan board I’ve seen. That’s what makes all the people slamming the “poisonous” atmosphere on this board strange to me. But it’s all a matter of perspective I guess.

[starrymessenger]

2 minutes ago, vincec said:

I occasionally visit other fan boards to try and get some first hand perspective on things and TBD is, by far, the mildest fan board I’ve seen. That’s what makes all the people slamming the “poisonous” atmosphere on this board strange to me. But it’s all a matter of perspective I guess.

You are exactly right. I visit other message boards and I usually come away with the impression that this one is better, both for courtesy, restraint and level of analysis. Its not that there aren’t good posters elsewhere, it just like there seem to be more here.

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

With you all the way until the last sentence.  McDermott will keep doing the same thing, which is following his process.   His process is designed to have a continuously improving team.  Doesn't mean there won't be ups and downs, but it does mean that over time it will get better.   McDermott expects that by continuing to follow the process he WILL get different results.  

 

 

I’m not sure “the process” is to continually improve the team. The team is already pretty damn good. Nobody improves over 3 or 4 loss seasons, other than making some moves aimed at getting over the playoff hump. 
 

“The process” is to build a team that remains competitive year after year. Not the Rams, throwing it all out there to try to win a SB in a 2-year window and then go straight back into a rebuild. Ideally, a new Pats. More realistically, another Chiefs or Packers. Even more down to earth, a new Panthers. McD and his mentors had that working great until his offensive AND defensive mainstays - Cam and Kuechly - both completely broke down at unusually young ages. 
 

I’ve asked it before: all other things being equal, would you give up a decade of playoff appearances for a 2 or 3 year run resulting in one SB win, followed by several really down years? I wouldn’t. I’m happy that the team I love to follow is poised to remain relevant and a SB competitor year after year after year. That SB win didn’t seem to have such a great impact on Rams fans after it was over. In fact, it didn’t even seem to create more Rams fans. They can have that model. I’ll take “the process” - the good with the bad. 

[wppete]

9 minutes ago, vincec said:

I occasionally visit other fan boards to try and get some first hand perspective on things and TBD is, by far, the mildest fan board I’ve seen. That’s what makes all the people slamming the “poisonous” atmosphere on this board strange to me. But it’s all a matter of perspective I guess.

I think the OP went away. He needs a long break. The stress was getting to him. I agree TBD is mild compared to a lot of other teams boards. 

[vincec]

8 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

You are exactly right. I visit other message boards and I usually come away with the impression that this one is better, both for courtesy, restraint and level of analysis. Its not that there aren’t good posters elsewhere, it just like there seem to be more here.

Right. There is actually a lot of good thought, analysis and even original information on here. It seems that the other boards are 90% rage posts.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

11 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I’m not sure “the process” is to continually improve the team. The team is already pretty damn good. Nobody improves over 3 or 4 loss seasons, other than making some moves aimed at getting over the playoff hump. 
 

“The process” is to build a team that remains competitive year after year. Not the Rams, throwing it all out there to try to win a SB in a 2-year window and then go straight back into a rebuild. Ideally, a new Pats. More realistically, another Chiefs or Packers. Even more down to earth, a new Panthers. McD and his mentors had that working great until his offensive AND defensive mainstays - Cam and Kuechly - both completely broke down at unusually young ages. 
 

I’ve asked it before: all other things being equal, would you give up a decade of playoff appearances for a 2 or 3 year run resulting in one SB win, followed by several really down years? I wouldn’t. I’m happy that the team I love to follow is poised to remain relevant and a SB competitor year after year after year. That SB win didn’t seem to have such a great impact on Rams fans after it was over. In fact, it didn’t even seem to create more Rams fans. They can have that model. I’ll take “the process” - the good with the bad. 

I would. All I want is a super bowl. I'm 50. I don't have the time or patience to wait another 20 years.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

I would. All I want is a super bowl. I'm 50. I don't have the time or patience to wait another 20 years.

Well let’s just say I’ve got a few years on you. And I’m enjoying these Bills seasons after the two decade drought. For me it’s more like another multi-year rebuild would just cause me to lose interest. Maybe forever. If you stay really good and are always winning your division or coming close, that Saints/Brees or Colts/Manning or Giants/Manning or Packers/Rodgers or Steelers/Ben year will come, and you will get that SB parade you’ve been waiting for all your life.