ALF Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 Jesus Lord's Prayer, also called Our Father, Latin Oratio Dominica or Pater Noster, Christian prayer that, according to tradition, was taught by Jesus to his disciples. 2
LeviF Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 42 minutes ago, ALF said: Jesus Lord's Prayer, also called Our Father, Latin Oratio Dominica or Pater Noster, Christian prayer that, according to tradition, was taught by Jesus to his disciples. Aside from the fact that God almost exclusively self-refers in the masculine throughout the Bible, the particularly odd bit about this whole thing is that the (little "O") orthodox Christian tradition believes that Jesus of Nazareth is himself God, which you would think would put an end to the "debate" entirely.
sherpa Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 Jesus gender has nothing to do with his divinity. Jesus was on earth as a human. His divinity is completely separate. The Bible, whether in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English uses the language of the time. It has noting to do with God's relating any gender. 2
SoCal Deek Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 What in the world are you knuckleheads talking about, today? Sheeeesh!
Joe Ferguson forever Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 (edited) representation matters and can and has been used for nefarious purposes. https://www.britannica.com/story/the-long-history-of-how-jesus-came-to-resemble-a-whiteeuropean Scholar Edward J. Blum and Paul Harvey argue that in the centuries after European colonization of the Americas, the image of a white Christ associated him with the logic of empire and could be used to justify the oppression of Native and African Americans. In a multiracial but unequal America, there was a disproportionate representation of a white Jesus in the media. It wasn’t only Warner Sallman’s Head of Christ that was depicted widely; a large proportion of actors who have played Jesus on television and film have been white with blue eyes. Pictures of Jesus historically have served many purposes, from symbolically presenting his power to depicting his actual likeness. But representation matters, and viewers need to understand the complicated history of the images of Christ they consume. Much later, anti-Semitic forces in Europe including the Nazis would attempt to divorce Jesus totally from his Judaism in favor of an Aryan stereotype. Edited February 8, 2023 by redtail hawk
LeviF Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 22 minutes ago, sherpa said: Jesus gender has nothing to do with his divinity. Jesus was on earth as a human. His divinity is completely separate. The Bible, whether in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English uses the language of the time. It has noting to do with God's relating any gender. This would place you outside of the orthodox Christian tradition, specifically the findings of the Council of Ephesus against the heresy of Nestorianism.
sherpa Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 9 minutes ago, LeviF said: This would place you outside of the orthodox Christian tradition, specifically the findings of the Council of Ephesus against the heresy of Nestorianism. I'm not certain what you are claiming here, but to make it clear, I am completely OK with Jesus joint existence as God and human, if that is your complaint. Not of fan of the early Gnostic beliefs, or others that claimed separation. Either way Jesus was presented as male during his human existence, but God has no gender. 1
TSOL Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 God is referred to as the Father so I'm saying he's male. I got $50 bucks on male
LeviF Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 4 hours ago, sherpa said: I'm not certain what you are claiming here, but to make it clear, I am completely OK with Jesus joint existence as God and human, if that is your complaint. Not of fan of the early Gnostic beliefs, or others that claimed separation. Either way Jesus was presented as male during his human existence, but God has no gender. Yes the issue at hand at Ephesus was whether the divine and human natures of Jesus of Nazareth were separate, thereby rendering Mary “mother of Christ,” as Nestorius and his followers claimed, rather than “mother of God” as the church had begun to refer to her. The council ruled against Nestorius and re-affirmed that Christ had two distinct, not separate, natures in union together in one person. As far as “gender” of God goes no, God does not have a male or female “gender” like we are born with. God, in the Christian tradition, is spirit and ultimately only is human in the united God-Man Christ (and even then in a way unique to him). But God refers to himself almost exclusively using masculine language, including “man of war,” “Father,” “Son (in the person of Christ),” etc. God is referred to as “Father” over 150 times in the Bible, by my count. The creeds of the church, liturgy, tradition all reflect this. As pointed out by someone upthread, Jesus himself instructed his followers to address God as “Father.” On the other hand, if the Anglicans wish to further distance themselves from the historical Christian tradition, well I suppose that will be about as on brand as it gets lol 1
Gene Frenkle Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 We should start a thread to debate the finer point of Star Wars or Harry Potter next. Remember Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny? You're let those ones go, right? Right??
sherpa Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 8 hours ago, LeviF said: Yes the issue at hand at Ephesus was whether the divine and human natures of Jesus of Nazareth were separate, thereby rendering Mary “mother of Christ,” as Nestorius and his followers claimed, rather than “mother of God” as the church had begun to refer to her. The council ruled against Nestorius and re-affirmed that Christ had two distinct, not separate, natures in union together in one person. A simple reading of 1 John would clear up the issue. It is suggested that the epistle, among other motivations, was written to stop the emerging Gnostic view on the issue. I think it's interesting that he starts out by establishing his bona fides as a direct witness, not some guy who was forming a views based on current and developing opinion, ie., Gnosics of the time. "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,...." 1 1 1
Tiberius Posted February 9, 2023 Author Posted February 9, 2023 13 hours ago, TSOL said: God is referred to as the Father so I'm saying he's male. I got $50 bucks on male Have you ever seen him naked?
SoCal Deek Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Tiberius said: Have you ever seen him naked? Wait….does that even matter anymore? It would seem, by his own words, that Jesus clearly identified as a man. 1
Tiberius Posted February 9, 2023 Author Posted February 9, 2023 31 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Wait….does that even matter anymore? It would seem, by his own words, that Jesus clearly identified as a man. He never read the New Testament did he?
SoCal Deek Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 Just now, Tiberius said: He never read the New Testament did he? He? 1
Tiberius Posted February 9, 2023 Author Posted February 9, 2023 Just now, SoCal Deek said: He? JFC man!! 🤣
Tommy Callahan Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 17 hours ago, redtail hawk said: representation matters and can and has been used for nefarious purposes. https://www.britannica.com/story/the-long-history-of-how-jesus-came-to-resemble-a-whiteeuropean Scholar Edward J. Blum and Paul Harvey argue that in the centuries after European colonization of the Americas, the image of a white Christ associated him with the logic of empire and could be used to justify the oppression of Native and African Americans. In a multiracial but unequal America, there was a disproportionate representation of a white Jesus in the media. It wasn’t only Warner Sallman’s Head of Christ that was depicted widely; a large proportion of actors who have played Jesus on television and film have been white with blue eyes. Pictures of Jesus historically have served many purposes, from symbolically presenting his power to depicting his actual likeness. But representation matters, and viewers need to understand the complicated history of the images of Christ they consume. Much later, anti-Semitic forces in Europe including the Nazis would attempt to divorce Jesus totally from his Judaism in favor of an Aryan stereotype. This Paul Harvey? Heah. His statements on "If I was the devil" is Epic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9NoQHgjM_0 If I were the Devil If I were the Devil If I were the Prince of Darkness, I'd want to engulf the whole world in darkness And I'd have a third of its real estate And four-fifths of its population But I wouldn't be happy until I had seized The ripest apple on the tree – thee So I'd set about however necessary to take over the United States I'd subvert the churches first I'd begin with a campaign of whispers With the wisdom of a serpent, I would whisper to you as I whispered to Eve "Do as you please" To the young I would whisper that the Bible is a myth I would convince them that man created God instead of the other way around I would confide that what's bad is good and what's good is square And the old, I would teach to pray after me Our Father – which art in Washington And then I'd get organized I'd educate authors in How to make Lurid literature exciting So that anything else would appear dull and uninteresting I'd threaten TV with dirtier movies and vice versa I'd peddle narcotics to whom I could I'd sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction I'd tranquilize the rest with pills If I were the Devil I'd soon have families at war with themselves Churches at war with themselves And nations at war with themselves Until each in it's turn, was consumed And with promises of higher ratings, I'd have mesmerizing media fanning the flames If I were the Devil I would encourage schools To refine young intellects But neglect to discipline emotions, just let those run wild! Until before you knew it You'd have to have drug sniffing dogs And metal detectors at every schoolhouse door Within a decade I'd have prisons overflowing I'd have judges promoting pornography Soon I could evict God from the courthouse Then from the schoolhouse And then from the houses of congress And in His own churches I would substitute psychology For religion and deify science I would lure priests and pastors into Misusing boys and girls and church money If I were the Devil I'd make the symbol of Easter an egg And the symbol of Christmas a bottle If I were the Devil, I would take from those who have And give to those who wanted Until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious What will you bet I could get whole states to promote gambling, as the way to get rich I would caution against extremes In hard work, in patriotism, in moral conduct I would convince the young that marriage is old fashioned That swinging is more fun That what you see on TV Is the way to be And thus, I could undress you in public And I could lure you into bed With diseases for which there is no cure In other words, if I were the Devil I'd just keep right on doing what he's doing 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Chris farley said: This Paul Harvey? Heah. His statements on "If I was the devil" is Epic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9NoQHgjM_0 If I were the Devil If I were the Devil If I were the Prince of Darkness, I'd want to engulf the whole world in darkness And I'd have a third of its real estate And four-fifths of its population But I wouldn't be happy until I had seized The ripest apple on the tree – thee So I'd set about however necessary to take over the United States I'd subvert the churches first I'd begin with a campaign of whispers With the wisdom of a serpent, I would whisper to you as I whispered to Eve "Do as you please" To the young I would whisper that the Bible is a myth I would convince them that man created God instead of the other way around I would confide that what's bad is good and what's good is square And the old, I would teach to pray after me Our Father – which art in Washington And then I'd get organized I'd educate authors in How to make Lurid literature exciting So that anything else would appear dull and uninteresting I'd threaten TV with dirtier movies and vice versa I'd peddle narcotics to whom I could I'd sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction I'd tranquilize the rest with pills If I were the Devil I'd soon have families at war with themselves Churches at war with themselves And nations at war with themselves Until each in it's turn, was consumed And with promises of higher ratings, I'd have mesmerizing media fanning the flames If I were the Devil I would encourage schools To refine young intellects But neglect to discipline emotions, just let those run wild! Until before you knew it You'd have to have drug sniffing dogs And metal detectors at every schoolhouse door Within a decade I'd have prisons overflowing I'd have judges promoting pornography Soon I could evict God from the courthouse Then from the schoolhouse And then from the houses of congress And in His own churches I would substitute psychology For religion and deify science I would lure priests and pastors into Misusing boys and girls and church money If I were the Devil I'd make the symbol of Easter an egg And the symbol of Christmas a bottle If I were the Devil, I would take from those who have And give to those who wanted Until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious What will you bet I could get whole states to promote gambling, as the way to get rich I would caution against extremes In hard work, in patriotism, in moral conduct I would convince the young that marriage is old fashioned That swinging is more fun That what you see on TV Is the way to be And thus, I could undress you in public And I could lure you into bed With diseases for which there is no cure In other words, if I were the Devil I'd just keep right on doing what he's doing And?...Is incredibly prophetic and insightful. Freewill is part of the equation. I don't agree with all his points here but I do agree with many. Seems like the kinda guy I'd trust to discern the evolution of Bee Gee Jesus. Edited February 9, 2023 by redtail hawk 1
Tommy Callahan Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 21 minutes ago, redtail hawk said: And?...Is incredibly prophetic and insightful. Freewill is part of the equation. I don't agree with all his points here but I do agree with many. Seems like the kinda guy I'd trust to discern the evolution of Bee Gee Jesus. he did that in 1965. thats the crazy part. 1
Warcodered Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 46 minutes ago, Chris farley said: This Paul Harvey? Heah. His statements on "If I was the devil" is Epic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9NoQHgjM_0 If I were the Devil If I were the Devil If I were the Prince of Darkness, I'd want to engulf the whole world in darkness And I'd have a third of its real estate And four-fifths of its population But I wouldn't be happy until I had seized The ripest apple on the tree – thee So I'd set about however necessary to take over the United States I'd subvert the churches first I'd begin with a campaign of whispers With the wisdom of a serpent, I would whisper to you as I whispered to Eve "Do as you please" To the young I would whisper that the Bible is a myth I would convince them that man created God instead of the other way around I would confide that what's bad is good and what's good is square And the old, I would teach to pray after me Our Father – which art in Washington And then I'd get organized I'd educate authors in How to make Lurid literature exciting So that anything else would appear dull and uninteresting I'd threaten TV with dirtier movies and vice versa I'd peddle narcotics to whom I could I'd sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction I'd tranquilize the rest with pills If I were the Devil I'd soon have families at war with themselves Churches at war with themselves And nations at war with themselves Until each in it's turn, was consumed And with promises of higher ratings, I'd have mesmerizing media fanning the flames If I were the Devil I would encourage schools To refine young intellects But neglect to discipline emotions, just let those run wild! Until before you knew it You'd have to have drug sniffing dogs And metal detectors at every schoolhouse door Within a decade I'd have prisons overflowing I'd have judges promoting pornography Soon I could evict God from the courthouse Then from the schoolhouse And then from the houses of congress And in His own churches I would substitute psychology For religion and deify science I would lure priests and pastors into Misusing boys and girls and church money If I were the Devil I'd make the symbol of Easter an egg And the symbol of Christmas a bottle If I were the Devil, I would take from those who have And give to those who wanted Until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious What will you bet I could get whole states to promote gambling, as the way to get rich I would caution against extremes In hard work, in patriotism, in moral conduct I would convince the young that marriage is old fashioned That swinging is more fun That what you see on TV Is the way to be And thus, I could undress you in public And I could lure you into bed With diseases for which there is no cure In other words, if I were the Devil I'd just keep right on doing what he's doing 1 1
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