If Frazier returns, how much will your enthusism die?

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Jim said:

And you are fine with how those bosses have handled it? By chance are you Steve Tasker or Chris Brown?

 

Yes I am. And no I'm not. 

[Jim]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes I am. And no I'm not. 

Okay, so you’re fine with good, but not great. I think most of the rest of us want more. But I guess it’s good for you that you’re happy with getting tossed out every year before the Super Bowl. I’d prefer we take some risks and try to get that Lombardi Trophy we all dream about.

 

Maybe we shoulda been as risk averse in the draft where we grabbed Josh. Instead of trading up, we coulda stayed put at 22 or whatever and grabbed Mason Rudolph. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jim

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Jim said:

Okay, so you’re fine with good, but not great. I think most of the rest of us want more. But I guess it’s good for you that you’re happy with getting tossed out every year before the Super Bowl. I’d prefer we take some risks and try to get that Lombardi Trophy we all dream about.

 

Nope. I just don't think the reason for that is Leslie Frazier. 

[Alphadawg7]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I wasn't directing my post at any specific person. My point is that the social media age has warped people's understanding of the word "accountability". People think accountability means heads on sticks. It doesn't. 

 

Except that is not at all, even one bit, the complaints about Frazier.  I asked you questions in the post you just disagreed with, and you didn't even bother to address or answer them and just doubled down on this absurd social media theory.  In fact, all I have seen you do mostly is hit the disagree button rather than actually enter into a discussion about the reasons and facts that people are dissatisfied about.  

 

And when you finally do reply, you just dismiss everyone and basically say social media made us irrational and we just want someones head on a spike...which quite frankly is both insulting and utter nonsense regarding many of us who are dissatisfied with Frazier.  And you did indirectly comment about my post...you replied to someone commenting on my thoughts, and then just said we all are influenced by social media and completely dismissing anything I had said to be nothing other than that.  

 

So, as much as I respect you as a poster Gunner, and I really do...this line you are taking here blaming social media's influence for our dissatisfaction of Fraziers last 3 years is utter nonsense and I expect better from you.  

 

To be clear, it's fine to have a differing opinion, but that is not what you are presenting.  Instead you are dismissing the rest of us as if we are mindless sheep influenced by social media to be mad and incapable of a rational opinion on the subject matter.  And that is utter nonsense.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Except that is not at all, even one bit, the complaints about Frazier.  I asked you questions in the post you just disagreed with, and you didn't even bother to address or answer them and just doubled down on this absurd social media theory.  In fact, all I have seen you do mostly is hit the disagree button rather than actually enter into a discussion about the reasons and facts that people are dissatisfied about.  

 

And when you finally do reply, you just dismiss everyone and basically say social media made us irrational and we just want someones head on a spike...which quite frankly is both insulting and utter nonsense regarding many of us who are dissatisfied with Frazier.  And you did indirectly comment about my post...you replied to someone commenting on my thoughts, and then just said we all are influenced by social media and completely dismissing anything I had said to be nothing other than that.  

 

So, as much as I respect you as a poster Gunner, and I really do...this line you are taking here blaming social media's influence for our dissatisfaction of Fraziers last 3 years is utter nonsense and I expect better from you.  

 

To be clear, it's fine to have a differing opinion, but that is not what you are presenting.  Instead you are dismissing the rest of us as if we are mindless sheep influenced by social media to be mad and incapable of a rational opinion on the subject matter.  And that is utter nonsense.

 

People keep throwing the word "accountability" around. That is the point. 

 

And they don't understand what it means. 

 

EDIT: to be clear I have NOT said that everyone who wants Frazier fired is a sheep. That is not the point I am making AT ALL. I have not engaged in that argument. Nor am I blaming the fact people want him out on social media. 

 

I AM however, saying that social media culture causes people to throw words around that they think have binary meaning that don't.

 

Not firing people does not mean coaches are absolved. That was the specific point I was responding to. That is 100% right. And that is the point I was agreeing with. People can be held accountable for their part in a failure and not fired. 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Jim]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

People keep throwing the word "accountability" around. That is the point. 

 

And they don't understand what it means. 

 

EDIT: to be clear I have NOT said that everyone who wants Frazier fired is a sheep. That is not the point I am making AT ALL. I have not engaged in that argument. Nor am I blaming the fact people want him out on social media. 

 

I AM however, saying that social media culture causes people to throw words around that they think have binary meaning that don't.

 

Not firing people does not mean coaches are absolved. That was the specific point I was responding to. That is 100% right. And that is the point I was agreeing with. People can be held accountable for their part in a failure and not fired. 

 

Okay then. You are the Pegulas, Beane and McD. How are you holding Loserly accountable? Challenging his play calling? Telling him he’s got a few weeks into next year? What are you doing? Cuz as you say, one doesn’t have to be fired to be held accountable? What changes things to benefit our team?

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Jim said:

Okay then. You are the Pegulas, Beane and McD. How are you holding Loserly accountable? Challenging his play calling? Telling him he’s got a few weeks into next year? What are you doing? Cuz as you say, one doesn’t have to be fired to be held accountable? What changes things to benefit our team?

 

I am having a conversation about the secondary play, in particular, all year round. I want to understand the extent that personnel impact playcalling but also the extent to which playcalling impacted personnel. 

 

But in absence of the ability to have that conversation I don't think playcalling was the biggest factor. I think injuries and the strange personnel usage at corner were bigger factors. I don't know, and nor do you, how much that was Frazier and how much was McDermott. But the Bills drafted a corner last April with a skillset and experience for man coverage. Then rarely used it and at one point even sat him down (which I still believe was likely a disciplinary issue). I would need to understand all of that to be in a position to take a considered view on Leslie Frazier. What I do know is that despite the injuries he produced another top 5 defense. That is 4 in 5 seasons. Yes, they did not play well vs the Bengals. But I want to understand the full range of reasons why. I want to understand why Jordan Poyer had probably his worst game as a Bill. I just don't think I have the information to say Frazier is the problem. And until I do I am not jettisoning a defensive coordinator with his track record of producing good defenses.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It’s really pointless to argue about. People want Frazier fired. I get it. One of the reasons is he can’t stop Mahomes, who averages like 30+ points per playoff game in his career.

 

They laid an egg vs Bengals. I get that as well. They tried everything and it didn’t work. Got ran over at home. 
 

They’ve played poorly vs these teams. No argument. They were out coached in these games. 
 

So I guess the question is how do we finally beat the Chiefs and Bengals? Firing people is only step 1 of a plan. What is the next step?

Edited February 8, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Alphadawg7]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

People keep throwing the word "accountability" around. That is the point. 

 

And they don't understand what it means. 

 

EDIT: to be clear I have NOT said that everyone who wants Frazier fired is a sheep. That is not the point I am making AT ALL. I have not engaged in that argument. Nor am I blaming the fact people want him out on social media. 

 

I AM however, saying that social media culture causes people to throw words around that they think have binary meaning that don't.

 

Not firing people does not mean coaches are absolved. That was the specific point I was responding to. That is 100% right. And that is the point I was agreeing with. People can be held accountable for their part in a failure and not fired. 

 

 

First off, Frazier is basically unemployed with an expired contract.  Moving on from Frazier is as simple as not giving him a new contract and hiring someone else.  He doesn't have to be fired.  

 

Second, that is not what you said at all.  That may be what you are saying now, but it wasn't the words you wrote previously.  

 

Third, I very much understand the word accountability, and I think its you that actually is limiting the meaning of accountability.  You are absolutely correct, that accountability does not ALWAYS mean someone should be fired.  HOWEVER...accountability absolutely CAN still mean CHANGE is needed if someone is demonstrating that they may not be the right person to complete the task over and over again.  Whether that is being fired, not brought back, demoted, etc it doesn't matter.  If someone is doing a worse job than others, change is needed.  

 

And Frazier has had the exact same failures on defense THREE consecutive years in the playoffs.  And DC's of defenses that are not statistically nearly as good as Fraziers are coming in the next week and having SIGNIFICANTLY more success against the SAME offenses Frazier has failed to slow down and defeating those teams we can't beat.  

 

Frazier:  3 losses - 107 points, 1403 yards.  DC's those teams faced the very next week:  3 Wins - 53 points, 1034 yards of offense.  And 2 of those years we had the 1st and 2nd ranked defense, and those other DC's had the 16th and 17th ranked defenses yet we were atrocious and they were very good and won their games as a result. 

 

It would be one thing if these offenses that were steam rolling Fraziers defense went on to keep steam rolling the next team and defenses they faced.  But they aren't, they are 0-3 after beating the Bills, and in all 3 games their offenses were held in check by defenses with less overall talent and much lower rankings in 2 of those seasons. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

First off, Frazier is basically unemployed with an expired contract.  Moving on from Frazier is as simple as not giving him a new contract and hiring someone else.  He doesn't have to be fired.  

 

Second, that is not what you said at all.  That may be what you are saying now, but it wasn't the words you wrote previously.  

 

Third, I very much understand the word accountability, and I think its you that actually is limiting the meaning of accountability.  You are absolutely correct, that accountability does not ALWAYS mean someone should be fired.  HOWEVER...accountability absolutely CAN still mean CHANGE is needed if someone is demonstrating that they may not be the right person to complete the task over and over again.  Whether that is being fired, not brought back, demoted, etc it doesn't matter.  If someone is doing a worse job than others, change is needed.  

 

And Frazier has had the exact same failures on defense THREE consecutive years in the playoffs.  And DC's of defenses that are not statistically nearly as good as Fraziers are coming in the next week and having SIGNIFICANTLY more success against the SAME offenses Frazier has failed to slow down and defeating those teams we can't beat.  

 

Frazier:  3 losses - 107 points, 1403 yards.  DC's those teams faced the very next week:  3 Wins - 53 points, 1034 yards of offense.  And 2 of those years we had the 1st and 2nd ranked defense, and those other DC's had the 16th and 17th ranked defenses yet we were atrocious and they were very good and won their games as a result. 

 

It would be one thing if these offenses that were steam rolling Fraziers defense went on to keep steam rolling the next team and defenses they faced.  But they aren't, they are 0-3 after beating the Bills, and in all 3 games their offenses were held in check by defenses with less overall talent and much lower rankings in 2 of those seasons. 

 

 

 

 

 

It really was. That is exactly what I wrote. In response to exactly the line I quoted.

Edited February 8, 2023 by GunnerBill

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Not firing a guy doesn’t mean coaches are absolved.

 

This was the line I responded to. 

 

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded x10. Some people want heads on sticks. They are conditioned in the social media age to think accountability means people being fired. People can be held accountable without losing their jobs.

 

And this what I said. 

 

That does not, despite what you may think, say people want Frazier fired because they are following social media. What it says is social media has warped the understanding of the word "accountability". People can be held accountable without losing their jobs. But because social media has warped the understanding of the word accountability people jump from accountability to heads on sticks. 

 

It says nowhere in there that anyone who wants Frazier fired is a social media sheep. It says nowhere in there that there isn't a reasonable argument for making a change. In fact every time I have talked about coaching changes this offseason I have been at pains to say I understand why some people have got to the points they have, despite me not yet being there. I'm sorry you read a meaning that was not there in my post into it and then tried to hold me to an argument I never made. 

 

[Buckets]

I'm 77 years old and ever since the AFL and NFL merged we have experienced nothing but disappointment in the end. I along with many here thought this would be THE year. In hindsight the appointment of a rookie OC and retaining the old DC probably sealed our fate. Unfortunately with the news coming from the front office I don't have any expectations for seeing a Lombardi Trophy in Buffalo in my lifetime 

[Jim]

20 minutes ago, Buckets said:

I'm 77 years old and ever since the AFL and NFL merged we have experienced nothing but disappointment in the end. I along with many here thought this would be THE year. In hindsight the appointment of a rookie OC and retaining the old DC probably sealed our fate. Unfortunately with the news coming from the front office I don't have any expectations for seeing a Lombardi Trophy in Buffalo in my lifetime 

If it makes you feel better Buckets, I’m 37 and I doubt I’ll see the Bills hoist the Lombardi either. Sucks, but here we are.

[Bermuda Triangle]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

People keep throwing the word "accountability" around. That is the point. 

 

And they don't understand what it means. 

 

EDIT: to be clear I have NOT said that everyone who wants Frazier fired is a sheep. That is not the point I am making AT ALL. I have not engaged in that argument. Nor am I blaming the fact people want him out on social media. 

 

I AM however, saying that social media culture causes people to throw words around that they think have binary meaning that don't.

 

Not firing people does not mean coaches are absolved. That was the specific point I was responding to. That is 100% right. And that is the point I was agreeing with. People can be held accountable for their part in a failure and not fired. 

 

Why do you think that Salgado was fired this year, and Farwell after last season?

[Drew21PA]

This staff has one more chance

 

I have a feeling they will step up now that they blew it…again - and risk being fired 

[Jauronimo]

5 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Why do you think that Salgado was fired this year, and Farwell after last season?

They were held accountable.  

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Why do you think that Salgado was fired this year, and Farwell after last season?

 

Because when the analysis was weighed up they were considered to be hurting more than helping. That is always the balancing act that teams do when evaluating. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because when the analysis was weighed up they were considered to be hurting more than helping. That is always the balancing act that teams do when evaluating. 

Do you think that if :13 seconds had never happened, Farwell still would have been fired?  

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Do you think that if :13 seconds had never happened, Farwell still would have been fired?  

 

I don't know. There were other special teams screw ups in 2021 so it is possible. But given the hints about communication breakdowns in that moment at KC it is also possible it was down to that.

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't know. There were other special teams screw ups in 2021 so it is possible. But given the hints about communication breakdowns in that moment at KC it is also possible it was down to that.

Plenty of ST blunders this season too.

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/12/29/23529690/buffalo-bills-special-teams-breakdowns-blocked-punt-nyheim-hines-fair-catch

 

Teflon Leslie walked away unscathed after :13, though.  Just as bad as the :13 defensive sequence were the immediately preceding and succeeding defensive possessions.  But, I guess those weren't at all actionable...not like the stakes were 20x than in a random Week 10 game.