If Frazier returns, how much will your enthusism die?

[BuffaloRebound]

2 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

I think some of those acolades for Frazier are rather pro forma. It's like a venerable character actor whose been around a long time. Is never going to be a star, but after a while folks feel obliged to say you're a good actor. Funny how it's relatively easy for most fans to recognize that there's a big difference between the regular season and playoff hockey, but some don't want to admit that Frazier's D doesn't show up in the second season.

It seems like it’s more than that.  The drumbeat for Frazier as a head coach from One Bills Drive was louder than it was for Daboll, and it just seems like McBeane has a ‘no expenses spared’ approach for Frazier’s defense to the detriment of the offense.  

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded x10. Some people want heads on sticks. They are conditioned in the social media age to think accountability means people being fired. People can be held accountable without losing their jobs.

Nope.  Not at all accurate.  No offense, but this is maybe the worst post I have ever seen you make, and honestly pretty insulting to say it’s because of social media I want him gone.  What a bunch of utter nonsense.  I don’t give 2 craps about social media and it has exactly zero influence over me.  
 

You act like it’s one game and suddenly people want him fired.  This is 3 years Gunner…three years.  Over that span our defense gave up 107 points and 1403 yards in those playoff losses.  And the last seasons we had the #1 and #2 ranked defenses.  
 

You don’t get to just dismiss that and say “people just want heads on spikes because of social media”. 

 

You’ve been a Frazier apologizer and excuse maker for a while now, so I get you are going to not agree with moving on from him.  But that doesn’t mean others can’t feel different without insulting those opinions and saying we are just influenced by social media…absurd.  
 

Let me be even more clear.  I want him gone because his defense has surrendered 107 points to teams that ALL went on to LOSE their next game and only combine to score 53 points against MUCH lesser defenses.  That’s literally less than half what we gave up to those same teams one week prior.

 

Instead of insulting people, why don’t you explain why our top ranked defenses suck so bad in these playoff losses to teams whose offense gets shut down the very next week by much lower ranked defenses and lose the next game.  

 

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expecting different results.  
 

There is a reason he isn’t getting any HC interest despite not even being under contract.  He had a bad stint as a HC in Minnesota and teams have watched high ranked his defense roll over in big games, then watched those same teams get shut down the next week by lesser defenses.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Cincis defence has given KC problems the last 2 years.

 

Its not just rush 4.

 

They adjust when things aren’t working. Like going to a 3 man pass rush last year, doing disguised zone blitzes etc.

 

Your front 4 of course has to get there, but you need to be more creative against Mahomes/Reid opposed to just “rushing 4” and doing soft zone basically every play 

They did do it in the regular season vs KC last year. Cincinnati has definitely been better vs KC in the playoffs. The 3 man rush completely caught KC off guard.

 

You still need the players up front. Cincy was able to get pressure with just 3 rushers.

23 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Last year Bengals 16th ranked defense handled Mahomes just fine.  Fraziers #1 ranked defense gave up 42 points.  
 

This year Chiefs 17th ranked defense handled Bengals just fine.  Fraziers #2 defense embarrassed themselves at home.  
 

Why are much lesser defenses doing just fine against those guys and Fraziers #1 and #2 defenses keep getting stomped by those guys?  

Are missing the point the KC and Cincinnati are better? Better coaching, yes.

 

Thats my whole argument. You don’t fire our coaches because they lose to the best. At least not yet. There will be a point when losing in the divisional round or conference championship is unacceptable.

[Alphadawg7]

33 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They did do it in the regular season vs KC last year. Cincinnati has definitely been better vs KC in the playoffs. The 3 man rush completely caught KC off guard.

 

You still need the players up front. Cincy was able to get pressure with just 3 rushers.

Are missing the point the KC and Cincinnati are better? Better coaching, yes.

 

Thats my whole argument. You don’t fire our coaches because they lose to the best. At least not yet. There will be a point when losing in the divisional round or conference championship is unacceptable.

So let me get this straight. You are saying the 16th ranked Bengals defense last year was better than our #1 ranked defense?  And you are saying that the 17th ranked Chiefs defense this year was better than our #2 ranked defense?  

 

This is your reasoning and logic to justify keeping Frazier?  Saying his top ranked defenses are not as good as the middle of the pack defenses?  That sure seems like a reason to get rid of Frazier rather than keep him.

 

Also you don't seem to understand we are talking about the defensive performances here.  You keep saying we lost to the best...thats a whole team comment.  

Edited February 8, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

So let me get this straight. You are saying the 16th ranked Bengals defense last year was better than our #1 ranked defense?  And you are saying that the 17th ranked Chiefs defense this year was better than our #2 ranked defense?  

 

This is your reasoning and logic to justify keeping Frazier?  Saying his top ranked defenses are not as good as the middle of the pack defenses?  That sure seems like a reason to get rid of Frazier rather than keep him.

Oh my goodness. 
 

I’m guessing you’re saying that the Bills coaches are choking in the playoffs?

[nosejob]

4 hours ago, Jim said:

For instance, in the second regular season matchup against Miami, their offense came in sputtering after being exposed against SF and LA. So what does Buffalo do? Not learn a thing from either teams success against Miami, and Tua lights them up. Same thing with Cincy. Both New England in the regular season and Baltimore in the postseason had slowed the Cincinnati offensive attack. So how do the Bills use that to their advantage in this massive game? They don’t of course! Sean McDermott and Leslie Frazier know much better than Bill Belichick and Mike Macdonald. They do things their way! All the way to 27 points which coulda been probably over 40 if necessary and a near total inability to stop the Bengals offense. But yeah, I’m sure the “growth mindset” will show up next year. Right. Maybe we will only get half as defensively embarrassed next year and Josh will play near perfect football and save their behinds! Unlikely.

Perfectly put.

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Oh my goodness. 
 

I’m guessing you’re saying that the Bills coaches are choking in the playoffs?

 

No, I am trying to get clear on what you are actually saying.  Let me recap...so far you told me its not Frazier, but then immediately blamed coaching for the defense not being better and players not being good enough.  Now you tell me that Bengals and Chiefs low ranked defenses were better than the Bills #1 and #2 ranked defenses...but still don't want to blame Frazier.

 

It's not personal, I have no issue with you what so ever...I am just not at all following how you can keep giving Frazier a pass but yet still pretty much say things that all point right back at Frazier.  

 

I have not said a word about anyone other than Frazier.  So your guess is wrong.  I am only talking about Frazier who gave up 107 points in 3 games to teams who would lose the next week and combine for 53 points in those losses against MUCH lesser defenses than ours.  How does that keep happening if it's not tied to scheme, game plan, play calling etc?  

 

[Green Lightning]

29 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They did do it in the regular season vs KC last year. Cincinnati has definitely been better vs KC in the playoffs. The 3 man rush completely caught KC off guard.

 

You still need the players up front. Cincy was able to get pressure with just 3 rushers.

Are missing the point the KC and Cincinnati are better? Better coaching, yes.

 

Thats my whole argument. You don’t fire our coaches because they lose to the best. At least not yet. There will be a point when losing in the divisional round or conference championship is unacceptable.

I think we're already there.  

[nosejob]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Oh my goodness. 
 

I’m guessing you’re saying that FRAZIER is choking in the playoffs?

Choking, gagging, turtleing, grabbing ankles, folding like tent.....I could do this all day.

Edited February 8, 2023 by nosejob

[Buffalo_Stampede]

48 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No, I am trying to get clear on what you are actually saying.  Let me recap...so far you told me its not Frazier, but then immediately blamed coaching for the defense not being better and players not being good enough.  Now you tell me that Bengals and Chiefs low ranked defenses were better than the Bills #1 and #2 ranked defenses...but still don't want to blame Frazier.

 

It's not personal, I have no issue with you what so ever...I am just not at all following how you can keep giving Frazier a pass but yet still pretty much say things that all point right back at Frazier.  

 

I have not said a word about anyone other than Frazier.  So your guess is wrong.  I am only talking about Frazier who gave up 107 points in 3 games to teams who would lose the next week and combine for 53 points in those losses against MUCH lesser defenses than ours.  How does that keep happening if it's not tied to scheme, game plan, play calling etc?  

 

Can a defense or offense be built better for the regular season than the playoffs?
 

I’ve also never said it’s not the coaches. I just said I don’t believe you fire the coaches because they lost to Cincinnati and KC. Cincinnati and KC are the best in the AFC. They only lose to each other.

 

We can talk all day about how I dislike the system and how they coach scared vs Cincinnati and KC. I do believe that fear is because they know they can’t match up against those offenses.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Jim]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Can a defense or offense be built better for the regular season than the playoffs?
 

I’ve also never said it’s not the coaches. I just said I don’t believe you fire the coaches because they lost to Cincinnati and KC. Cincinnati and KC are the best in the AFC. They only lose to each other.

 

 

So we should stick with the guy who has shown he hasn’t the slightest clue how to stop those teams when it really matters?

 

We should be happy with maybe third best in the conference just cuz we were led by even more incompetent buffoons before McD and Frazier showed up? Just be happy we got there, even though we have a generational talent at QB? Ugh.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jim

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, Jim said:

So we should stick with the guy who has shown he hasn’t the slightest clue how to stop those teams when it really matters?

 

We should be happy with maybe third best in the conference just cuz we were led by even more incompetent buffoons before McD and Frazier showed up? Just be happy we got there, even though we have a generational talent at QB? Ugh.

No. But we could easily get further away by firing Frazier.

[Alphadawg7]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Can a defense or offense be built better for the regular season than the playoffs?
 

I’ve also never said it’s not the coaches. I just said I don’t believe you fire the coaches because they lost to Cincinnati and KC. Cincinnati and KC are the best in the AFC. They only lose to each other.

 

We can talk all day about how I dislike the system and how they coach scared vs Cincinnati and KC. I do believe that fear is because they know they can’t match up against those offenses.

 

 

 

I don't understand why you keep going back to your blanket excuse of just saying they are "better teams" and completely ignoring the questions and facts presented to you about why does our better ranked defense fare worse than their much lower ranked defenses against the same teams.

 

We are in a thread discussing Frazier and the Defense, yet you won't actually address any direct points made to you or questions presented to you about the defensive stuff.  You just keep saying "well those teams are just better teams" which has no substance to it other than to dodge what is actually being discussed.

 

All good, no ill will what so ever, but I give up.  I can only ask you the same question so many times without getting an answer.

[Jim]

I’m confused as well. So it sounds as if he thinks that we should stick with Frazier cuz basically “it could get worse”? Um. He has a defense stacked with top draft picks and expensive contracts and when they get to the playoffs they might as well be the 2008 Lions or something. Getting lit up every time we play a tough offensive in the playoffs, only exception being the 2020 Ravens who kinda play right into his defensive scheme's strengths.

 

So I guess our Stampeding friend is just fine with giving up around 30 points a game in the playoffs, whether it be to a washed Phil Rivers, Pat Mahomes, Joe Burrow or Skyler Thompson(!).

 

We wouldn’t wanna make a change, or next time we might give up 49 points to the Chiefs in the playoffs, which would be “so much worse” than what Leslie has gifted us.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Nope.  Not at all accurate.  No offense, but this is maybe the worst post I have ever seen you make, and honestly pretty insulting to say it’s because of social media I want him gone.  What a bunch of utter nonsense.  I don’t give 2 craps about social media and it has exactly zero influence over me.  
 

You act like it’s one game and suddenly people want him fired.  This is 3 years Gunner…three years.  Over that span our defense gave up 107 points and 1403 yards in those playoff losses.  And the last seasons we had the #1 and #2 ranked defenses.  
 

You don’t get to just dismiss that and say “people just want heads on spikes because of social media”. 

 

You’ve been a Frazier apologizer and excuse maker for a while now, so I get you are going to not agree with moving on from him.  But that doesn’t mean others can’t feel different without insulting those opinions and saying we are just influenced by social media…absurd.  
 

Let me be even more clear.  I want him gone because his defense has surrendered 107 points to teams that ALL went on to LOSE their next game and only combine to score 53 points against MUCH lesser defenses.  That’s literally less than half what we gave up to those same teams one week prior.

 

Instead of insulting people, why don’t you explain why our top ranked defenses suck so bad in these playoff losses to teams whose offense gets shut down the very next week by much lower ranked defenses and lose the next game.  

 

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expecting different results.  
 

There is a reason he isn’t getting any HC interest despite not even being under contract.  He had a bad stint as a HC in Minnesota and teams have watched high ranked his defense roll over in big games, then watched those same teams get shut down the next week by lesser defenses.

 

 

I wasn't directing my post at any specific person. My point is that the social media age has warped people's understanding of the word "accountability". People think accountability means heads on sticks. It doesn't. 

[Jim]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded x10. Some people want heads on sticks. They are conditioned in the social media age to think accountability means people being fired. People can be held accountable without losing their jobs.

This is fine, but if there is accountability, where is it? The ST got fired for 13 seconds. Frazier has, to be kind, not coached a good defense in the playoffs all things considered. Yet he trots out the same garbage against high powered offensives and we are supposed to believe he’s being held accountable? What proof do we have of that? Where is this accountability you speak of? If anything, they give the man more and more toys to experiment with to get his defense right and they arguably sucked worse than they ever had before in this latest postseason. While Josh Allen gets stuck with Rodger Saffold and Spencer Brown and Isaiah McKenzie. Gimme a *****in’ break here man.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jim

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Jim said:

This is fine, but if there is accountability, where is it? The ST got fired for 13 seconds. Frazier has, to be kind, not coached a good defense in the playoffs all things considered. Yet he trots out the same garbage against high powered offensives and we are supposed to believe he’s being held accountable? What proof do we have of that? Where is this accountability you speak of? If anything, they give the man more and more toys to experiment with to get his defense right and they arguably sucked worse than they ever had before in this latest postseason. While Josh Allen gets stuck with Rodger Saffold and Spencer Brown and Isaiah McKenzie. Gimme a *****in’ break here man.

 

Point proven. 

 

People wants heads on sticks. Do you think the Bills haven't addressed what happened on all units? Do you think they haven't looked at everything? Of course they have. You can hold someone accountable for their performance and still overall not believe it is a reason for them to leave their job. 

[Jim]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Point proven. 

 

People wants heads on sticks. Do you think the Bills haven't addressed what happened on all units? Do you think they haven't looked at everything? Of course they have. You can hold someone accountable for their performance and still overall not believe it is a reason for them to leave their job. 

Are you on drugs? I never said I want Frazier fired but I asked where the accountability is. He has ran back this same garbage scheme that gets lit up in the playoffs time after time and we are supposed to believe he’s being held accountable? Accountable would be seeing some kind of change in philosophy, in the teams aggressiveness, etc. Instead we’ve gotten served up plates of garbage the last 3 playoff exits, in addition to the Colts and Fins playoff games.

 

I ask again, where is the accountability?

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jim

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Jim said:

Are you on drugs? I never said I want Frazier fired but I asked where the accountability is. He has ran back this same garbage scheme that gets lit up in the playoffs time after time and we are supposed to believe he’s being held accountable? Accountable would be seeing some kind of change in philosophy, in the teams aggressiveness, etc. Instead we’ve gotten served up plates of garbage the last 3 playoff exits, in addition to the Colts and Fins playoff games.

 

I ask again, where is the accountability?

 

It is in the discussions he has with his bosses. 

 

But when they have those conversations they will be looking at his entire body of work. Which is the right way to do it.

Edited February 8, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Jim]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is in the discussions he has with his bosses. 

And you are fine with how those bosses have handled it? By chance are you Steve Tasker or Chris Brown?