If Frazier returns, how much will your enthusism die?

[FireChans]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:52 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

How is the number two ranked defense in the NFL “the worst talent he’s ever put on the field?  
 

The only players we were missing were Hyde (who was out most the season) and Von (who missed the last half the season) and yet we still finished the season as the #2 ranked defense despite those guys missing so much time.
 

So the defense we put on the field against Cincy was pretty much the same defense that finished ranked 2nd in the NFL during the regular season.  

So no disrespect, but this just isn’t accurate.  And you didn’t even bother to address the fact his defense has crapped the bed the last 3 postseasons.  

 

Woah woah woah. Do you think the Bills have the second most talented defense in the NFL?

[bobobonators]

I will surely perish. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, FireChans said:

Woah woah woah. Do you think the Bills have the second most talented defense in the NFL?

He’s angry.

 

But I do think we have to look at the DL investments over the Beane/McDermott/Frazier era and ask ourselves are we getting value? A lot of draft picks and cap space.

 

Someone has to be responsible for that. It’s not good enough to beat top offenses when it matters most. It’s great vs everyone else.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He’s angry.

 

But I do think we have to look at the DL investments over the Beane/McDermott/Frazier era and ask ourselves are we getting value? A lot of draft picks and cap space.

 

Someone has to be responsible for that. It’s not good enough to beat top offenses when it matters most. It’s great vs everyone else.

I unfortunately am concerned that there is a disconnect on the DL grouping somewhere. AJE’s career has been bizarre and Boogie looks to be AJE 2.0. Ed Oliver is like the 8th best DL in his own first round. The Star Loutotototo saga. Just bizarre stuff.

 

All that being said, Leslie Frazier took a defense with AJE, Boogie, Damar Hamlin, Jaquan Johnson, Cam Lewis, Christian Benford, Kaiir Elam, Xavier Rhodes’ corpse, Tre White’s ghost, one armed Jordan Poyer and the scarecrow Tremaine Edmunds and cobbled together the #2 defense in the regular season. That’s a coaching success, not a failure. They ran into a hot team with a great QB and got buzz sawed. It happens 

[LABILLBACKER]

Nobody cares anymore about how high the regular season defense gets ranked. . Once the lights go on and the playoffs start, the top5 D turns to bottom 5 real fast.  4 straight years and counting. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

9 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Nobody cares anymore about how high the regular season defense gets ranked. . Once the lights go on and the playoffs start, the top5 D turns to bottom 5 real fast.  4 straight years and counting. 

Let’s focus. How have teams beat Mahomes and Burrow in the playoffs? It’s not from blitzing. It’s front 4 pressure. Got to have it. 
 

All these general statements about the defense are pointless. How do you beat possible future GOATs at QB? You need sharks on the DL that taste blood.

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

Woah woah woah. Do you think the Bills have the second most talented defense in the NFL?

I stated they were the number 2 ranked defense this year.  

 

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He’s angry.

 

But I do think we have to look at the DL investments over the Beane/McDermott/Frazier era and ask ourselves are we getting value? A lot of draft picks and cap space.

 

Someone has to be responsible for that. It’s not good enough to beat top offenses when it matters most. It’s great vs everyone else.

Im not angry, I am just puzzled how you can absolve Frazier.  
 

You also for some reason keep contradicting yourself.  You have literally stated to me it’s not Fraziers fault while then following that up blaming “coaching” for our defenses issues and lack of player development.  I mean not only is Frazier a coach, he is the top coach for the defense as the DC.  So how can you defend Frazier and yet still say it’s the coaches fault?  
 

I’ve also asked you why Fraziers defense has given up 107 points and 1403 yards in the last playoff losses and somehow escape any responsibility.  Which you haven’t yet answered.  
 

Fun Facts:  

 

Did you know that all 3 teams (Chiefs, Chiefs, and Bengals) that scored 107 points and 1403 yards of offense in our last playoff losses went on to LOSE their next game?  And did you know those teams combined for 53 points and 1034 yards in those 3 losses?  And that all but one of those defenses they faced were SIGNIFICANTLY ranked lower than the Bills?  

 

It’s time to move on from Frazier.   

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I stated they were the number 2 ranked defense this year.  

 

Im not angry, I am just puzzled how you can absolve Frazier.  
 

You also for some reason keep contradicting yourself.  You have literally stated to me it’s not Fraziers fault while then following that up blaming “coaching” for our defenses issues and lack of player development.  I mean not only is Frazier a coach, he is the top coach for the defense as the DC.  So how can you defend Frazier and yet still say it’s the coaches fault?  
 

I’ve also asked you why Fraziers defense has given up 107 points and 1403 yards in the last playoff losses and somehow escape any responsibility.  Which you haven’t yet answered.  
 

Fun Facts:  

 

Did you know that all 3 teams (Chiefs, Chiefs, and Bengals) that scored 107 points and 1403 yards of offense in our last playoff losses went on to LOSE their next game?  And did you know those teams combined for 53 points and 1034 yards in those 3 losses?  And that all but one of those defenses they faced were SIGNIFICANTLY ranked lower than the Bills?  

 

It’s time to move on from Frazier.   

 

 

Not firing a guy doesn’t mean coaches are absolved.

 

 I’m not confident replacing Frazier is the key to stopping Patrick Mahomes and Joe Burrow. For one, those guys are hard to stop. 
It’ll take more than just a good scheme to beat them.

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Not firing a guy doesn’t mean coaches are absolved.

 

 I’m not confident replacing Frazier is the key to stopping Patrick Mahomes and Joe Burrow. For one, those guys are hard to stop. 
It’ll take more than just a good scheme to beat them.

 

The bolded x10. Some people want heads on sticks. They are conditioned in the social media age to think accountability means people being fired. People can be held accountable without losing their jobs.

[Governor]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Not firing a guy doesn’t mean coaches are absolved.

 

 I’m not confident replacing Frazier is the key to stopping Patrick Mahomes and Joe Burrow. For one, those guys are hard to stop. 
It’ll take more than just a good scheme to beat them.

 

 

 

We can’t stop Zach Wilson. Maybe we should start there.

[Matt_In_NH]

None, I am a die hard and no matter what I think about the coaches or players I will be cheering them on every step of the way.  I also think they can do this with Frazier which puts me in the minority.  Continual growth is needed.  Also the Bills have Josh Allen!

Edited February 8, 2023 by Matt_In_NH

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

What I don’t understand is why there is so much pushback still? After 13 seconds the guy should have been fired. Plain and simple, end of story. There’s no excuse for it and if we never win a Super Bowl then that is going to be even worse. The guy inexcusably got off the hook, got a whole other season to right the wrong and only was worse somehow. After week 2 this defense sucked. Fraizer was horrible In Minnesota and runs the plainest defense in the NFL. Every week the opponent says out loud, nothing we do is complicated. We never change anything. Poyer and Hyde covered up so much of how bad this scheme actually is. You don’t have them erasing the faults and you see what this really is. A remedial defense that gets shredded by any patient accurate QB or any physical run game.

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I stated they were the number 2 ranked defense this year.  

 

Im not angry, I am just puzzled how you can absolve Frazier.  
 

You also for some reason keep contradicting yourself.  You have literally stated to me it’s not Fraziers fault while then following that up blaming “coaching” for our defenses issues and lack of player development.  I mean not only is Frazier a coach, he is the top coach for the defense as the DC.  So how can you defend Frazier and yet still say it’s the coaches fault?  
 

I’ve also asked you why Fraziers defense has given up 107 points and 1403 yards in the last playoff losses and somehow escape any responsibility.  Which you haven’t yet answered.  
 

Fun Facts:  

 

Did you know that all 3 teams (Chiefs, Chiefs, and Bengals) that scored 107 points and 1403 yards of offense in our last playoff losses went on to LOSE their next game?  And did you know those teams combined for 53 points and 1034 yards in those 3 losses?  And that all but one of those defenses they faced were SIGNIFICANTLY ranked lower than the Bills?  

 

It’s time to move on from Frazier.   

 

 

Do you think we had the second most talented defense this year?

Edited February 8, 2023 by FireChans

[Jim]

9 hours ago, FireChans said:

I unfortunately am concerned that there is a disconnect on the DL grouping somewhere. AJE’s career has been bizarre and Boogie looks to be AJE 2.0. Ed Oliver is like the 8th best DL in his own first round. The Star Loutotototo saga. Just bizarre stuff.

 

All that being said, Leslie Frazier took a defense with AJE, Boogie, Damar Hamlin, Jaquan Johnson, Cam Lewis, Christian Benford, Kaiir Elam, Xavier Rhodes’ corpse, Tre White’s ghost, one armed Jordan Poyer and the scarecrow Tremaine Edmunds and cobbled together the #2 defense in the regular season. That’s a coaching success, not a failure. They ran into a hot team with a great QB and got buzz sawed. It happens 

Once again what I’m seeing is a fan telling themselves stories to feel better. Yes the Bengals had won a bunch in a row, but they weren’t particularly playing great football coming into Buffalo. The defense gave up a lot of plays to a severely limited Tyler Huntley who did not have a very great time last season in his time covering for the missing Lamar Jackson. In fact, if not for a boneheaded Huntley play the Ravens probably win that game. And on offense, the Bengals kinda stunk too. They scored 17 on that side of the ball. They most surely did NOT come into Buffalo playing their best ball. They just played a team with who had neither the talent nor the coaching to take advantage of their weaknesses. And that’s what is scary about this defense. Why wasn’t McDermott asked why they didn’t they didn’t learn from other teams defensive successes?

 

For instance, in the second regular season matchup against Miami, their offense came in sputtering after being exposed against SF and LA. So what does Buffalo do? Not learn a thing from either teams success against Miami, and Tua lights them up. Same thing with Cincy. Both New England in the regular season and Baltimore in the postseason had slowed the Cincinnati offensive attack. So how do the Bills use that to their advantage in this massive game? They don’t of course! Sean McDermott and Leslie Frazier know much better than Bill Belichick and Mike Macdonald. They do things their way! All the way to 27 points which coulda been probably over 40 if necessary and a near total inability to stop the Bengals offense. But yeah, I’m sure the “growth mindset” will show up next year. Right. Maybe we will only get half as defensively embarrassed next year and Josh will play near perfect football and save their behinds! Unlikely.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Jim said:

Once again what I’m seeing is a fan telling themselves stories to feel better. Yes the Bengals had won a bunch in a row, but they weren’t particularly playing great football coming into Buffalo. The defense gave up a lot of plays to a severely limited Tyler Huntley who did not have a very great time last season in his time covering for the missing Lamar Jackson. In fact, if not for a boneheaded Huntley play the Ravens probably win that game. And on offense, the Bengals kinda stunk too. They scored 17 on that side of the ball. They most surely did NOT come into Buffalo playing their best ball. They just played a team with who had neither the talent nor the coaching to take advantage of their weaknesses. And that’s what is scary about this defense. Why wasn’t McDermott asked why they didn’t they didn’t learn from other teams defensive successes?

 

For instance, in the second regular season matchup against Miami, their offense came in sputtering after being exposed against SF and LA. So what does Buffalo do? Not learn a thing from either teams success against Miami, and Tua lights them up. Same thing with Cincy. Both New England in the regular season and Baltimore in the postseason had slowed the Cincinnati offensive attack. So how do the Bills use that to their advantage in this massive game? They don’t of course! Sean McDermott and Leslie Frazier know much better than Bill Belichick and Mike Macdonald. They do things their way! All the way to 27 points which coulda been probably over 40 if necessary and a near total inability to stop the Bengals offense. But yeah, I’m sure the “growth mindset” will show up next year. Right. Maybe we will only get half as defensively embarrassed next year and Josh will play near perfect football and save their behinds! Unlikely.

Not being prepared to take advantage of 3 starters out on the OL, looking like the team that can't adjust to playing in the snow (in Buffalo) when the whole season was predicated on getting the home field for the playoffs, the dbs playing with big, big cushions, you spend premium picks on dbs and hardly ever use press coverage, needing all your premium picks on D healthy to perform well in the clutch games, all that is dispiriting if you are a fan of the Buffalo Bills. I keep hearing you can hold someone accountable without firing them. Let's see if Frazier shows any evidence of change as a result of multiple fiascos wasting the early prime of Allen and -- this is why he is so angry, the late prime of Diggs. Trust me, I'll be overjoyed to see it, but I'm not betting a penny on it happening.

[BillsFan130]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Let’s focus. How have teams beat Mahomes and Burrow in the playoffs? It’s not from blitzing. It’s front 4 pressure. Got to have it. 
 

All these general statements about the defense are pointless. How do you beat possible future GOATs at QB? You need sharks on the DL that taste blood.

Cincis defence has given KC problems the last 2 years.

 

Its not just rush 4.

 

They adjust when things aren’t working. Like going to a 3 man pass rush last year, doing disguised zone blitzes etc.

 

Your front 4 of course has to get there, but you need to be more creative against Mahomes/Reid opposed to just “rushing 4” and doing soft zone basically every play 

[BuffaloRebound]

The more time that passes, the angrier I get.  We’ve essentially wasted at least the last 2 years giving Frazier and his defense everything they want (2 pro bowl safeties, pro bowl CB, 1st round pick CB, $9m per year slot CB, 2 Pro Bowl LB’s, a defensive line 8 deep with non bargain free agents and 1st/2nd round picks).  And it’s still a soft D that gets manhandled when it counts.  Yet we constantly had to hear the last 3 years how it’s a crime that Frazier isn’t a head coach. Funny how that narrative has fallen silent at One Bills Drive since the Cincy debacle.   Shower Josh and the offense with the resources you’ve given the defense and we’d be unstoppable.  It’s an offense-driven League.  

[Dr. Who]

32 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

The more time that passes, the angrier I get.  We’ve essentially wasted at least the last 2 years giving Frazier and his defense everything they want (2 pro bowl safeties, pro bowl CB, 1st round pick CB, $9m per year slot CB, 2 Pro Bowl LB’s, a defensive line 8 deep with non bargain free agents and 1st/2nd round picks).  And it’s still a soft D that gets manhandled when it counts.  Yet we constantly had to hear the last 3 years how it’s a crime that Frazier isn’t a head coach. Funny how that narrative has fallen silent at One Bills Drive since the Cincy debacle.   Shower Josh and the offense with the resources you’ve given the defense and we’d be unstoppable.  It’s an offense-driven League.  

I think some of those acolades for Frazier are rather pro forma. It's like a venerable character actor whose been around a long time. Is never going to be a star, but after a while folks feel obliged to say you're a good actor. Funny how it's relatively easy for most fans to recognize that there's a big difference between the regular season and playoff hockey, but some don't want to admit that Frazier's D doesn't show up in the second season.

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Not firing a guy doesn’t mean coaches are absolved.

 

 I’m not confident replacing Frazier is the key to stopping Patrick Mahomes and Joe Burrow. For one, those guys are hard to stop. 
It’ll take more than just a good scheme to beat them.

 

 

 

Last year Bengals 16th ranked defense handled Mahomes just fine.  Fraziers #1 ranked defense gave up 42 points.  
 

This year Chiefs 17th ranked defense handled Bengals just fine.  Fraziers #2 defense embarrassed themselves at home.  
 

Why are much lesser defenses doing just fine against those guys and Fraziers #1 and #2 defenses keep getting stomped by those guys?  

[gobills404]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:29 PM, JimBob2232 said:

None. He is a good DC.   2 bad playoff games not withstanding.  I can’t forgive those 2 game - but he is still a good DC we can win with. 

They've given up over 30 points per game in their last 5 playoff games