Kurt Warner's "Study Ball" review of Bengals game.

[Jrb1979]

48 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

With all due respect, I believe you’re missing the point. The idea isn’t to go into the huddle with the intent of checking the ball down. The idea is for the QB to scan the field, and take the open receivers. Move the chains, and keep the drive moving. Josh failed to do that time and time again…which by the way exposes the weakness of the O Line, causing them to block longer than they have the skill set to do. 

I wonder if some of the issues is Allen himself. Yes he is a great QB but judging how he's played and the plays he makes  I get the feeling he has a hard time reading the field. One thing he lacks which make Burrow and Mahomes a step above is adjusting at the line 

[Solomon Grundy]

Just now, Jrb1979 said:

I wonder if some of the issues is Allen himself. Yes he is a great QB but judging how he's played and the plays he makes  I get the feeling he has a hard time reading the field. One thing he lacks which make Burrow and Mahomes a step above is adjusting at the line 

I think he sees the field well. He just looks to make the dynamic play as opposed to the simplistic play

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

With all due respect, I believe you’re missing the point. The idea isn’t to go into the huddle with the intent of checking the ball down. The idea is for the QB to scan the field, and take the open receivers. Move the chains, and keep the drive moving. Josh failed to do that time and time again…which by the way exposes the weakness of the O Line, causing them to block longer than they have the skill set to do. 

The whole offense seemed to never be on the same page. Often out of sync, rhythm, and lacking cohesion and identity. 

 

The Oline obviously has issues. No need to rehash them.

 

The run game and run game plan was sporadic and schizophrenic. The use of Rbs in the passing game is beyond questionable. Dorsey was the main issue for a lot of the above.

 

The pass game lost its potency. Besides Diggs the Bills had no reliable WR. The Bills WRs couldn't get any seoeration. Seemingly, the Bills WRs were always covered. Opposing defenses were all over the predictable passing scheme of the Bills. Dorsey was the main issue for a lot of the above.

 

However, Dorsey can't only be the one to blame. Plenty goes to head coach McD for his hands off approach especially with the offense.

 

Players play the game. Safford and Brown on the Oline were liabilities. Gabe and McKenzie are nice back ups. Brown and Beasley shouldn't be on the field. The Bills were desperate. 

 

Cook, Shakir, and Hines were underused and their skill set was mainly wasted. Coaching coaching coaching...

 

Lastly, Allen has to be discussed. Make no mistake about it he is elite and a top 5 QB. His poor play was a result of poor coaching, game planning, and lack of weapons. As a result, Allen pressed, took reckless chances, lost some confidence, and was a turnover machine. 

 

The offensive issues were exposed in that Cinci game. All the above was clearly evident in that game. It wasn't a "one off" as presented by Beane in his presser. As Beane stated many times you are as good as your last game. The last game tells you about your weaknesses. Conveniently, Beane skirts that issue. 

 

Folks, the writing is on the wall. This team is likely to regress. With Allen, the Bills always have a fighting chance. I'd argue the chances diminish so long as the current coaching staff remains. It's clear they can't get it done in the playoffs. Six years and counting. What's going to change now? 

Edited February 5, 2023 by newcam2012

[pigpen65]

18 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

The bengals could have scored every time they touched the ball. God forbid our offense has an off day and doesn’t bail them out. Literally every week the offense wins us games, 1 time they don’t have it and that’s a big deal. How about once in a while have the defense making stops. You might have to win a game 13-10. You just never can because our defense absolutely blows. Let’s spend the offseason complaining about WRs and Dorsey though….keep not fixing the actual problem and wonder why we are watching the Super Bowl with the fans.

2 INT's and 4 fumbles vs Miami was hardly the offense bailing out the defense.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

1 minute ago, pigpen65 said:

2 INT's and 4 fumbles vs Miami was hardly the offense bailing out the defense.

How about the rest of the season? The playoff game? And we had 34 points in that game. 

[Billsfan1972]

19 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Dorsey had few hot reads or crossing routes all season. And yes Josh has to be coached up to value the checkdown as much as the fly route.  When your weapons are few and teams double Diggs, you revert to hero ball.

If it was hero ball why did he not run?

[BarleyNY]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Some of us have been saying this for two weeks. It's popular to pile on coaching. But it's a PLAYERS game. That will never change. The coaching wasn't faultless, far from it. But guys on both sides just have to play better.

 

EDIT: and Josh is better when the ball comes out fast.

 

 

I think the main issue with the defense was obviously the ineffectiveness of the DL to generate a pass rush. KC played a lot of Cover 2 and it worked because they got pressure on Burrow. They didn’t even have to blitz. The Bills had trouble even when they sent blitzers. The Von Miller injury was a big loss, but we got very little from the DL that was out there. A lot of that was on the players. The coaches made the situation worse by doing things like repeatedly blitzing Edmunds. Lotta blame to go around.

[Dr.Sack]

4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

A football game is not like running a marathon. You’re not out there on the open road all alone, with just you and your distracted mind. Who the heck is supposed to talking to, or yelling at, Josh DURING the game? Someone is supposed to be telling him that guys are open EVERYWHERE underneath if he’d just take the easy completion and move the darn chains. That was clearly the case against the Bengals but either nobody was telling him, or he simply wasn’t listening. Either way…it’s not good! 

McDermott needs to hold his QB accountable. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

19 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

The bengals could have scored every time they touched the ball. God forbid our offense has an off day and doesn’t bail them out. Literally every week the offense wins us games, 1 time they don’t have it and that’s a big deal. How about once in a while have the defense making stops. You might have to win a game 13-10. You just never can because our defense absolutely blows. Let’s spend the offseason complaining about WRs and Dorsey though….keep not fixing the actual problem and wonder why we are watching the Super Bowl with the fans.

yes, cannot overlook 30 first downs…

 

…and when they did eventually stop them on the 3rd drive, they started dancing around like they just won the Super Bowl.

 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

17 minutes ago, ControllerOfPlanetX said:

yes, cannot overlook 30 first downs…

 

…and when they did eventually stop them on the 3rd drive, they started dancing around like they just won the Super Bowl.

 

It’s insane to me how many people keep ignoring the issues here. It’s actually been the same for 2.5 years. Obviously the Bills are also ignoring it which is incredibly frustrating. Go get WRs….that will fix it

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

46 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

However, Dorsey can't only be the one to blame. Plenty goes to head coach McD for his hands off approach especially with the offense.

 

 

 I wouldn't say McDermott is totally hands off with the offense, at least this past year. I can't say with 100% it was Allen, but I'm like 99% sure it was, in an interview he said McDermott would come into the QBs meeting every week and give a full run down on the opposing defense they were about to face. What they liked to run, what they're strengths & weaknesses were and how he thought they would defend them that week. I don't know if he's always done this or if he was doing it cause Dorsey was a new OC. Either way, for Dorsey and Allen(Especially Dorsey) that's like getting the answers to the test ahead of time. I'm wondering with the change of OCs last offseason if maybe Allen started getting too big of a say in the offense. Also maybe Dorsey doesn't put Allen in his place when he needs to, maybe too buddy buddy with him. Not saying that's what happened, but just a thought.

 

 Another thing is I think the offense, especially Allen, missed this year was Daboll's experience and feel for the game & his QB. I had some issues with Daboll's playcalling from time to time, but overall he had a much better feel for the game & where Allen was in said game than Dorsey seems to. 

 

 

[Maine-iac]

KC and the Bengals had roughly 90 to 100 catches by rbs.  We had 60 between Singletary and Cook.  I've already harped on running the ball more.  I've never thought we had an OL problem or RB problem as far as running.  We just don't hand the ball off and therefore no rushing production.  The more I look the more I feel the same way about the short passing game.  I'm not saying abandon a vertical passing attack but (for the sake of not being predictable) mix it up. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Check down, check down, check down, check down, check down

 

I recall three checkdown attempts when the Bengals game was still in hand. Two were tipped at the line (poor OL technique), one bounced off the hands of Singletary. There's the checkdown offense everyone has been screaming about. It isn't going to be fix our problems.

 

I would like to see a little more short passing offense schemed up, especially getting guys like Cook and Hines intentionally involved as pass catchers, but Bills fans have all too quickly forgotten what happened in 2020. We spent much of that season throwing a lot of short crossing routes and hook routes to our less-than-dynamic receivers who more often than not got hit right away. We moved the ball but our receivers took a beating all year long. By the time we got to the AFCCG seemingly every starting receiver was banged up. That's what an offense full of unathletic route technicians gets you when you're relying on short passes. 

 

The Bills offense is not going to turn into a machine throwing 5 yard button routes to Diggs who immediately gets smacked in the back 10 times a game. Our offense was intentionally a downfield passing offense because it meshes with the QB and the receivers that we have. I also think Allen's elbow injury made him less accurate on shorter routes so they intentionally called less of those later in the year. Next year we need a better #2 WR and our offense as a whole needs to handle blitzes better. If everyone is running a vertical route and one of our OL gets confused, a delayed blitz is an automatic win for the defense. I'm begging Dorsey to figure out how to organically get the RBs involved in the passing game, not as checkdowns but with multiple designed targets every game. Use the offseason to figure out how to run a screen for the first time in a decade. Those are some of the ways we can get this offense humming with more consistency, not by throwing a million 5 yard curl routes.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by HappyDays

[Maine-iac]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I recall three checkdown attempts when the Bengals game was still in hand. Two were tipped at the line (poor OL technique), one bounced off the hands of Singletary. There's the checkdown offense everyone has been screaming about. It isn't going to be fix our problems.

 

I would like to see a little more short passing offense schemed up, especially getting guys like Cook and Hines intentionally involved as pass catchers, but Bills fans have all too quickly forgotten what happened in 2020. We spent much of that season throwing a lot of short crossing routes and hook routes to our less-than-dynamic receivers who more often than not got hit right away. We moved the ball but our receivers took a beating all year long. By the time we got to the AFCCG seemingly every starting receiver was banged up. That's what an offense full of unathletic route technicians gets you when you're relying on short passes. 

 

The Bills offense is not going to turn into a machine throwing 5 yard button routes to Diggs who immediately gets smacked in the back 10 times a game. Our offense was intentionally a downfield passing offense because it meshes with the QB and the receivers that we have. I also think Allen's elbow injury made him less accurate on shorter routes so they intentionally called less of those later in the year. Next year we need a better #2 WR and our offense as a whole needs to handle blitzes better. If everyone is running a vertical route and one of our OL gets confused a delayed blitz is an automatic win for the defense. I'm begging Dorsey to figure out how to organically get the RBs involved in the passing game, not as checkdowns but with multiple designed targets every game. Use the offseason to figure out how to run a screen for the first time in a decade. Those are some of the ways we can get this offense humming with more consistency, not by throwing a million 5 yard curl routes.

And to your point I'm not advocating check downs as much as quick passes.  There are swing passes that give you a rb in space with room to make something happen that (if done right) can be very effective.  The video did a good job of showing how a quick release to the flat instead of a chip would have (theoretically) produced some better results not only for a pass to the RB  but in moving coverage to hit some WR's at an 8 to 15 yard level.  Some in game tweaks that might have worked.  I don't want whole sale changes as much as diversification.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

3 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

KC and the Bengals had roughly 90 to 100 catches by rbs.  We had 60 between Singletary and Cook.  I've already harped on running the ball more.  I've never thought we had an OL problem or RB problem as far as running.  We just don't hand the ball off and therefore no rushing production.  The more I look the more I feel the same way about the short passing game.  I'm not saying abandon a vertical passing attack but (for the sake of not being predictable) mix it up. 

 

 I agree with running the ball more, it's been this way ever since Josh broke out in 2020. I agree we need more in the short game. But as far as RB's number of catches, if you include Singletary, Cook, Hines, Moss(While he was here) & Gilliam the number increases to 79 receptions from the backfield. Gilliam is technically a FB, but he's lined up in same backfield. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

15 hours ago, WideNine said:

The moral of the story is that when teams bring extra pressure, they bank on Allen holding the ball too long and not taking his quick hot reads and dump offs.

 

They drop and stack defenders at and behind the sticks because they know that is where his eyes tend to go when he holds the ball.

 

Getting the ball out more quickly and knowing where to go with it underneath when pressured is an area Josh needs to improve to take the next step in his game.

 

Bombs away with deep lobs are great, but successful teams and QBs know how to balance their game by taking what defenses are giving them too.

 

Folks get their undees in a bunch if any critique goes Allen's way, but does anyone think that Allen watches his tape of that game and comes away thinking, "Yeah, I made great decisions with the ball."?

 

I doubt it. If he is a real competitor, he will want to fix those things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Precisely. They are scheming up ways to use his tendencies to their advantage. Hero ball returns when he feels any kind of pressure. He has change his approach otherwise this movie will play on repeat next year. And Dorsey needs to give him a hot on every damn play. Sometimes I wonder if they send so many people down field because that gives him clearer lanes to run if he decides to. 

[Nephilim17]

Did the people here criticizing Warner for supposedly unfairly critiquing Josh watch the whole video? 

 

I did. Numerous examples of Josh missing the easy short stuff to go for (and often miss) a bigger play). Warner was super complimentary of Josh in this, btw, and said all QBs have off days and Josh is great but this wasn't his best game. 100% truth.

 

I'm tired of posters here saying no criticism of Josh is allowed. He's a great QB but he has moments of non-greatness and he has room for growth. Dorsey isn't great yet but a lot of these play designs had options that could've moved the chains and beat pressure. Josh didn't take a lot of them.

I watch KC and get frustrated with all the short stuff that they complete — "How can Kelce or those receivers be SO open?!?" I scream at my TV — but we have lots of those short options open but this year Josh has not been taking them. 

He's a top-3 QB right now; if he can improve — or return to his 2021 — short game, he can be number one or 2.

[78thealltimegreat]

14 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

That says it all there. Stafford was terrible and Crowder got injuried as usual. What a surprise. Let's hope Beasley and Brown can add something to the roster. Meanwhile, Hodges can make an immediate impact and continue catching TD passes from Daniel Jones. 

Hey newcam I agree Hodges is the type of big body receiver this offense needs 

Edited February 5, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[UKBillFan]

41 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

Did the people here criticizing Warner for supposedly unfairly critiquing Josh watch the whole video? 

 

I did. Numerous examples of Josh missing the easy short stuff to go for (and often miss) a bigger play). Warner was super complimentary of Josh in this, btw, and said all QBs have off days and Josh is great but this wasn't his best game. 100% truth.

 

I'm tired of posters here saying no criticism of Josh is allowed. He's a great QB but he has moments of non-greatness and he has room for growth. Dorsey isn't great yet but a lot of these play designs had options that could've moved the chains and beat pressure. Josh didn't take a lot of them.

I watch KC and get frustrated with all the short stuff that they complete — "How can Kelce or those receivers be SO open?!?" I scream at my TV — but we have lots of those short options open but this year Josh has not been taking them. 

He's a top-3 QB right now; if he can improve — or return to his 2021 — short game, he can be number one or 2.

 

Physically, Josh is the number one QB. I'd argue with anyone who tries to say otherwise. He has the arms, build and legs to put any team to the sword. Of course he needs help from the OC, WRs, RBs and OL but the biggest issue is himself. He was so good taking what was there in the play offs last year and at the start of the season in 2022, but it seemed to slip away after the bye. The long ball is a superb asset but it needs to be used sparingly, not as the first go to. And that's about mentality whilst on the field of play.

 

The only issue is, if he does try and adapt, does that affect his natural game? A lot of us were calling for him to run less but he didn't look the same, even with the passing game, after his run time was cut. And it's not even designed runs; he didn't even take chances when the possibility was there as the season went on.

[Another Fan]

1 hour ago, Nephilim17 said:

Did the people here criticizing Warner for supposedly unfairly critiquing Josh watch the whole video? 

 

I did. Numerous examples of Josh missing the easy short stuff to go for (and often miss) a bigger play). Warner was super complimentary of Josh in this, btw, and said all QBs have off days and Josh is great but this wasn't his best game. 100% truth.

 

I'm tired of posters here saying no criticism of Josh is allowed. He's a great QB but he has moments of non-greatness and he has room for growth. Dorsey isn't great yet but a lot of these play designs had options that could've moved the chains and beat pressure. Josh didn't take a lot of them.

I watch KC and get frustrated with all the short stuff that they complete — "How can Kelce or those receivers be SO open?!?" I scream at my TV — but we have lots of those short options open but this year Josh has not been taking them. 

He's a top-3 QB right now; if he can improve — or return to his 2021 — short game, he can be number one or 2.

 

I agree with your takes especially the bolden sentence.  It seems nothing is ever Josh's bad, it must be the result of a bad offensive line, bad play calling, etc....

 

 

However, he's not a one man island and definitely can't do it alone.  But to insinuate there still aren't ways he can't improve is just foolish.

 

 

When Allen first came in the league I watched one of Kurt's reviews of his game plans and thought he was unnecessarily harsh on him and got turned off from watching his game reviews after that.  But this one imo was very fair.  He even complimented him at the beginning and several times during the video.  Seeing the field better for the short throws is something he can work on.