Your Gut Instinct: Are Beane/McDermott On Track to Win Championship(s) or Wasting J. Allen's talent?

[Billsfan1972]

6 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

You obviously don't like hearing opinions that don't agree with your own because you created a poll intended to solicit anti-Beane/McDermott responses by providing 2 anti-Beane/McDermott responses and 2 totally unrealistic alternative choices that discouraged responses to your anti-Beane/McDermott choices.   That's the ultimate in a useless poll. 

 

 

Exactly.  While coaching is frequently a difference maker in today's NFL, there's a limit to how much good/great coaching can make up for a lack of talent.  That the Bills lack OL talent has really been exposed this past season, and especially in the playoffs.   How much the Bills missed Von Miller on the defensive line was exposed in the playoffs, too.  It was clear to me even before the first Cinci game that the Bills couldn't run with the Bengals and Chiefs just based on talent, some of it because of injury, possibly because of lack of experience, but a lot of it because some of the linemen, especially on offense, just aren't good enough.   An improved OL will improve the offense far more (and more quickly) than just about any other change.

And the excuses keep coming.  Cincy was on a hot streak, but were not blowing out or dominating opponents (compare that to the 2020 Bills down the stretch).  They are a very good team, as are the Chjiefs (who too had tight games down the stretch).

 

The difference was the Bills did nothing vs. Cincy and were "out coached".    

 

When others brought up concerns about coaching from the GB game on, as the win streak continued, were told "You don't understand, only winning matters, not how you win" or similar.  Everyone could see things were off and this was particularly due to COACHING. 

[teef]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And the excuses keep coming.  Cincy was on a hot streak, but were not blowing out or dominating opponents (compare that to the 2020 Bills down the stretch).  They are a very good team, as are the Chjiefs (who too had tight games down the stretch).

 

The difference was the Bills did nothing vs. Cincy and were "out coached".    

 

When others brought up concerns about coaching from the GB game on, as the win streak continued, were told "You don't understand, only winning matters, not how you win" or similar.  Everyone could see things were off and this was particularly due to COACHING. 

maybe it's time to take a break?

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, teef said:

maybe it's time to take a break?

I am about to take my annual February- September break.

 

As said McD and the band are back, I'll cheer the Bills in 2023 and already expect Allen & the Bills to win the SB in spite of McD et al.

 

Appreciate you being on top of it.

[ArtVandalay]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I have a question... McDermott has basically had 3 years of elite QB play - 2020, 2021 and 2022 - and hasn't gotten it done. Josh wasn't elite in 2019. He was decent, but not Suprerbowl winning calibre. 

 

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

I am not fishing it is a genuine question. 

You have to look at his decision making as a coach in the previous years as well, not just the end result, to determine if he got the most of out of the team in those years too.

 

Sure, we weren't winning the Superbowl with Tyrod but that 10-3 loss to the Jaguars was brutal and his decision making during the game on the offensive side of the ball was horrendous. We had a long drive that game where virtually every yard was gained by McCoy on the ground or air. We get down to the goal line, 1st and goal on the 1... what do we do? Call a pass to Kelvon Benjamin, take a 10 yard penalty then settle for a FG... it was a horrendous game... now that team wasn't really going anywhere but McDs performance was terrible. But hey, first appearance, you don't have a good QB, it's a learning experience I get it. 

 

You have to keep in mind too that was the year the Bills drafted Nate Peterman, McD swore he was the next best thing, benched Tyrod for him on for Peterman to have the worst appeance by a QB in NFL History, completing 6 of 16 for 66 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT... literally the worst QB debut in NFL history no joke. That's the guy McD thought gave us the best chance to win. Massive mark against him and his futility to have any competence in the offensive side of the ball other than let someone else do it. 

 

Then against Houston we all know how that game went packing the offense in at the end of the first half, purposely settling for FGs once we got in FG range, going up 16-0 in the first half only to lose. Just again, a competely mismanaged game from McD, it was disappointing to see no growth there from the Jaguars game. 

 

Coaches need to develop, grow, and learn as well, but every year in the playoffs we get the same ole timid guy that pisses down his leg and pukes all over his feet. 13 seconds was an abomination by a defensive coach and he took zero accountability for it after the game and instead blamed it on execution. Then this year we just don't show up, completely unprepared for both games.  

 

There's no growth, and I'm fact the team has gone backwards from our Conference Chamionship loss these past two years losing in the Divisional and now firmly behind the Bengals in pecking order as well. 

[teef]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I am about to take my annual February- September break.

 

As said McD and the band are back, I'll cheer the Bills in 2023 and already expect Allen & the Bills to win the SB in spite of McD et al.

 

Appreciate you being on top of it.

it's a game man.  take it in stride.  i've never seen someone so excited to be upset.

[RyanC883]

Who voted JA does not have the talent to win?   He is more talented than past SB winning QBs.  The issue is the roster/coaching around him.  

[Billsfan1972]

38 minutes ago, teef said:

it's a game man.  take it in stride.  i've never seen someone so excited to be upset.

Just letting my frustrations out.  All good and yep know it's a game.  Will see you in September.😗

[HappyDays]

18 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

It isn't just about winning the Super Bowl. It's about putting us in position to at least contend for a Super Bowl. 2020 I don't blame McDermott for. We were still getting our playoffs feet wet and weren't on the level of the Chiefs yet. 2021 coaching malpractice cost us a game we had won. 2022 we squeaked by a wildcard team on its 3rd string QB and had a poor gameplan on both sides of the ball in the divisional round and got blown out. So there is actually a downward trend. We are further away from a Super Bowl now than we were in 2020 despite being more experienced in playoff games.

 

Get us to the AFCCG or the Super Bowl and we lose a heartbreaker because the other team's talent makes more plays, you can live with that from your coaches. That was 2020. Getting embarrassed for different reasons in consecutive playoff exits is not something you can live with. It falls on coaching. Next year if we still don't even sniff a Super Bowl appearance then yes I am ready to give someone else a shot.

[Larry mackowiak]

The team is fine...yes last year 13 seconds we were definitely peaking. As far as this year way to many Hurdles to overcome mentally. McDermott kept the team glued beginning of the season serious injuries MILLER ect. Next the snow bug traveling back and forth from Detroit as players and coaches taking care of there families. Next HAMLIN goes down with CARDIAC AREST on the field...WAY TO MANY MENTAL ASPECTS TO MOVE ON FROM...Yes injuries happen but with the other 2 mixed in equals disaster. THE BUFFALO BILLS WILL WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH ALLEN MCDERMOTT AND BEANE...BE PATIENT MY FRIENDS

[John from Riverside]

You gotta be in it to win it
 

They are in it

[Not at the table Karlos]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:00 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

Called coaching and seemed the later in the season, the more frustrated he was and we saw more long balls.  They had plenty of time to design an offense that worked.  

 

And how about some easy passes and separation by the receivers.  

 

Defenses figured out Dorsey the second half. 

There was easy passes from time to time. Josh would look them off and throw to a receiver with multiple defenders on them. Dorsey is a big problem but so is Josh's decision making. I don't think the two of them are good for each other.

 

I've met, talked to for a while and sat in on Dorsey talking to college and high school players. He struggled to keep people's attention and was kind of awkward. I was texting friends while he was talking that there's no way I'd listen to this guy as my coach.It was painful trying to listen to him talk and most of the players he was talking to tuned him out and started talking to each other instead of listening to him. Listening to him was kind of like watching his offense but with out Josh bailing him out. 

 

I've watched a bunch of coaches and players in that position over the years and the only other coach I saw that happen to was Dick Jauron. Van Pelt could get boring at times but he could clearly communicate what he was trying to say and you were learning something from him. Dorsey you left questioning what point he was trying to get across. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Not at the table Karlos

[John from Riverside]

On 2/4/2023 at 2:35 PM, WideNine said:

 

Marino did a good analysis of this and the numbers bear it out. We stink at screens.

 

A couple other interesting things he pulled out during that podcast was how much better Allen was with play action and how drastically play action was reduced under Dorsey.

 

And one brain twister was that Allen when passing from a clean pocket with time was less efficient than when pressured...

 

Don't know where to go with that assuming it's true.

 

 

 

 

I don’t believe that is true Josh Allen very seldom has a clean pocket

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

There was easy passes from time to time. Josh would look them off and throw to a receiver with multiple defenders on them. Dorsey is a big problem but so is Josh's decision making. I don't think the two of them are good for each other.

 

I've met, talked to for a while and sat in on Dorsey talking to college and high school players. He struggled to keep people's attention and was kind of awkward. I was texting friends while he was talking that there's no way I'd listen to this guy as my coach.It was painful trying to listen to him talk and most of the players he was talking to tuned him out and started talking to each other instead of listening to him. Listening to him was kind of like watching his offense but with out Josh bailing him out. 

 

I've watched a bunch of coaches and players in that position over the years and the only other coach I saw that happen to was Dick Jauron. Van Pelt could get boring at times but he could clearly communicate what he was trying to say and you were learning something from him. Dorsey you left questioning what point he was trying to get across. 

Thank you for your insight. I agree that this can be as simple as Dorsey and Allen don’t mesh well. We’ve already seen Allen be successful with another OC and he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. So swapping out Dorsey would make a lot of sense to me. If not that, then some help/oversight from an experienced offensive mind in a consultant role should be part of the plan. It will be very disappointing if nothing like that happens. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

10 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Thank you for your insight. I agree that this can be as simple as Dorsey and Allen don’t mesh well. We’ve already seen Allen be successful with another OC and he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. So swapping out Dorsey would make a lot of sense to me. If not that, then some help/oversight from an experienced offensive mind in a consultant role should be part of the plan. It will be very disappointing if nothing like that happens. 

We had Mike Shula last year helping him out, he might be back this year. idk how long his contract is for. Plus a bunch of former OCs on staff in Brady, Boras and Kromer. Our offense was still a clunky mess. 

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

It isn't just about winning the Super Bowl. It's about putting us in position to at least contend for a Super Bowl. 2020 I don't blame McDermott for. We were still getting our playoffs feet wet and weren't on the level of the Chiefs yet. 2021 coaching malpractice cost us a game we had won. 2022 we squeaked by a wildcard team on its 3rd string QB and had a poor gameplan on both sides of the ball in the divisional round and got blown out. So there is actually a downward trend. We are further away from a Super Bowl now than we were in 2020 despite being more experienced in playoff games.

 

Get us to the AFCCG or the Super Bowl and we lose a heartbreaker because the other team's talent makes more plays, you can live with that from your coaches. That was 2020. Getting embarrassed for different reasons in consecutive playoff exits is not something you can live with. It falls on coaching. Next year if we still don't even sniff a Super Bowl appearance then yes I am ready to give someone else a shot.

 

I don't think the Cincy one falls on coaching to the same extent that you do. That is the difference. I do think the other team's talent just made more plays than ours did. Our players made some pretty fundamental execution errors on the day and we played our worst game of the season. It's easy to say "eventually it comes back to coaching" but that gets me to my point.... how long does the next guy get to get it done? You are saying McDermott's missed 2 chances, if he misses a third he is done. What if the next guy loses in the playoffs 3 straight years too? Like Dungy did his first 4 years with Manning? Do you ditch him too? Of course a coaching change could work and you could win it all. But what if you still keep falling short? You going to cycle through 3/4 year stints for the next 12 years of Josh's career? That's my question. 

 

And I repeat what I have said before I can see a situation where by the end of next season I think it is time to try something different. But if they do that then unless they really screw up the hire (I mean Rex Ryan level screw up) I'd want that guy to get 5+ years too. 

[BarleyNY]

11 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

We had Mike Shula last year helping him out, he might be back this year. idk how long his contract is for. Plus a bunch of former OCs on staff in Brady, Boras and Kromer. Our offense was still a clunky mess. 

Not exactly an impressive group as far as OCs. I was thinking more along the lines of a very successful offensive mind who was retired with no interest in a full time coaching gig. Bring that person in as a mentor to Dorsey with the understanding that improvement is needed and he is here to help him grow. My preference would be to see Dorsey replaced, but they doesn’t look like it’s happening this off-season. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Not exactly an impressive group as far as OCs. I was thinking more along the lines of a very successful offensive mind who was retired with no interest in a full time coaching gig. Bring that person in as a mentor to Dorsey with the understanding that improvement is needed and he is here to help him grow. My preference would be to see Dorsey replaced, but they doesn’t look like it’s happening this off-season. 

 

Yea. Mike Shula was a bad OC. Boras and Kromer had one shot failed and will not get another. Joe Brady was out of his depth in CAR and needed to take a step back and learn. I get the idea about experienced heads in the room, but they didn't have a real experienced OC in there. 

[Billsfan1972]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think the Cincy one falls on coaching to the same extent that you do. That is the difference. I do think the other team's talent just made more plays than ours did. Our players made some pretty fundamental execution errors on the day and we played our worst game of the season. It's easy to say "eventually it comes back to coaching" but that gets me to my point.... how long does the next guy get to get it done? You are saying McDermott's missed 2 chances, if he misses a third he is done. What if the next guy loses in the playoffs 3 straight years too? Like Dungy did his first 4 years with Manning? Do you ditch him too? Of course a coaching change could work and you could win it all. But what if you still keep falling short? You going to cycle through 3/4 year stints for the next 12 years of Josh's career? That's my question. 

 

And I repeat what I have said before I can see a situation where by the end of next season I think it is time to try something different. But if they do that then unless they really screw up the hire (I mean Rex Ryan level screw up) I'd want that guy to get 5+ years too. 

They made plays because the defense let them.  They had 3 OL's out and the Bills had no pressure.

 

Yes the Bills secondary was decimated, but how about making a play, stepping up or a defensive scheme that made it difficult for Cincy to get thnings done.  It wasn't 2-3 plays, they moved the ball at will and had 30 first downs.

 

Oh & no TO's.  Not surprised because I thought they were not very good the second half of the season either and many were lucky or vs. bad QB's.

 

On the Offensive side, the Bills as they had been much of the second half of the season were/looked disjointed.  Again so many here claimed that wasn't the case when anyone brought it up and that Allen only had to protect the ball better.

 

When they needed just 1 first down prior to the half to get into FG range (heck 5 yards), that should have been their goal and the play calls.  First & goal the second half and 3 lousy calls by Dorsey.

 

And to top it off again 3rd & 2 and a long pass to the one receiver we all know won't make a contested catch, draw a penalty and if at all covered probably drops it Davis, and exactly what happened.

[OldTimer1960]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:24 PM, GoBills808 said:

They don't have the kind of athletes on offense with the physical talent to create offense for themselves. Diggs, as great a technician as he is, has the athleticism of a 5th rounder. He runs phenomenal routes and has great hands but he isn't a real threat after the catch. Davis, similarly, is a fourth rounder. Knox a third. McKenzie and Shakir are both 5th rounders. The Bills just don't have guys on offense with the kind of elite athleticism that can succeed outside play design or scheme.

I disagree on Diggs.  He is plenty athletic and Route running is really the best skill.  Most receivers are not markedly faster than most DBs in the NFL.  Quickness, route running and scheme are important.  Yes super top end speed and leaping ability and size help, but there are plenty of great receivers that are good NFL athletes, not great by NFL standards.

 

Agree that Davis and McKenzie are not top level receivers, but that doesn’t mean only super top athletes succeed at receiver.  Look at the NFL receiving leaders, some are super fast, many aren’t.

[Royale with Cheese]

23 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And the excuses keep coming.  Cincy was on a hot streak, but were not blowing out or dominating opponents (compare that to the 2020 Bills down the stretch).  They are a very good team, as are the Chjiefs (who too had tight games down the stretch).

 

The difference was the Bills did nothing vs. Cincy and were "out coached".    

 

When others brought up concerns about coaching from the GB game on, as the win streak continued, were told "You don't understand, only winning matters, not how you win" or similar.  Everyone could see things were off and this was particularly due to COACHING. 

 

It's not all coaching. 

 

Simple execution from the players was a major problem too.  There wasn't anyone on this board who was more upset about drops than you.  We had a ton of drops and in crucial situations.  That's not on coaching.  What was coached was the play design and that worked, the player didn't.

 

Allen made a ton of mistakes as well.  He couldn't stop turning the ball over, especially in the redzone.  He went from being nearly perfect in the redzone in his first couple of years to now leading the league in giveaways.  That was a major problem for us.

 

We never righted the ship after the GB game and it was a combination of coaching, player execution and several injuries.