Josh = Phil Rivers (just messenger)

[Nextmanup]

This analogy has been made at least 2 or 3 times this past week on Schopp and Bulldog on GR-55.

 

Bulldog suggested Mahomes vs. Burrow feels like Brady vs. Manning, and Allen is Roethlisberger...or maybe even Rivers, as you suggest.

 

What concerns me is that Josh's game is at its best when he's a little out of control and living in the moment, doing crazy things with success on the field.  That's not sustainable and repeatable week in and week out.  And sure enough, look at the inconsistencies in his game....

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

C’mon OP. You’re better than this. 

 

link?

[goldenboy81]

This is why you don't wake and bake at midnight

[artmalibu]

I hate that QBs are evaluated like they are in a vacuum!!!

 

Of course the QB is the most important player on the team, but there are 52 other guys on the roster.  The 53 man roster is only one part of the organization.  When a great QB is part of a great organization, great things happen.  Too often the QB gets too much of the fame, or the blame.  

 

A few examples to discuss

 

Lets start with the "GOAT"

Is Tom great? no question, absolutely!!

He was drafted in BB in his first year as the coach with a  team that was in a downward trajectory.  As a rookie Tom gets to get a full year of development and does not have to take a demoralizing beating. Year 2 wow, comes in and is great.  It was also the second year for the team under BB who in of course one of the greatest coaches in history.  We all know the success that the Pats have had.  Over that time the Pats had an elite defense in mot of the years, very good run game, and special teams (2 Hall of fame kickers?).  I recall a number of playoff games won in OT or FGs with no time on the clock.  In that time the Pats were caught cheating how many times? We all  could go on about other things TB benefited form.  But lets take Tom out of the equation.  He was very durable over his time, but when out the team was still very successful.  Matt Castle went 11-5  and he was what a very low end starter or back up QB in the NFL.  When TB was suspended for cheating the team went 3-1 with Jimmy G(2-0) and Jacoby Brissett(1-1). Brissett was the 3rd string QB and had a broken bone in his throwing hand when loosing to our Bills.  

 

Brady goes to the Bucks, a team where he takes over for a not great QB that threw for 5100 yards!! Also the team was able to add a lot of great talent that year. 

 

Next example 

Mahomes, he is great no question.

Drafted by another Hall of fame coach, and one of the greatest offensive minds ever.  Gets a redshirt year, and takes over for the "beige Impala" of QBs who took the team to the AFC championship game. 

 

Next example 

Manning again great!

The Colts were a great organization.  If he ended up going to the Chargers would we view him the same way? My opinion no.  When Eli was in the draft it was said he would have refused to go to the Chargers  because of a conversation Eli's father Archie had about quarterback Ryan Leaf's experience with the team. 

 

So,  Rivers is not held in the same hight regard because he has no rings.  If he played his career for the Pats would he have some? I think so.

 

When saying JA = Rivers it is unfair to both...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

13 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

C’mon OP. You’re better than this. 

Are we sure 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

13 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Burrow actually kinda sucks in the playoffs. His stats impress no one.

 

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

See manning reference 

 

 So going by the above I'm guessing you're saying Burrow is Manning because they both play great in the regular season, but average in the playoffs?

 

 If it's anything close to what I said above and based on the comment Burrow's stats impress no one, I think it is, then the Allen comparison to Rivers makes even less sense. Josh has been statistically the best qb in the playoffs of the group of 6 players you listed(7 if you count Newton) not named Patrick Mahomes. This isn't my opinion, it a fact. Better comp%, yds per game, td/int ratio(A little over 4/1) by a mile. Besides Mahomes the closest is a little over 2/1, tds per game and QB Rating. He just hasn't had any help from his team. Put him on KC or Cincy and he already has 2 Super Bowl wins.

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

C’mon OP. You’re better than this. 

 

Apparently, OP is not better than this

[nedboy7]

We are all such victims of this horrible regime!!!!

[CincyBillsFan]

13 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’ve spoken with numerous fans of football, many teams…. 
 

Common consensus is Allen is an afterthought. Somewhere between Rivers and Newton. 
 

Mahommes is new Brady, Burrow is new Manning….

 

so far it all holds up. 
 

sucks we could’ve had that guy 

I would call it the flavor of the day rather then the common consensus.  Allen has already won 4 playoff games in 5 seasons while in his 17 seasons in the NFL Rivers won 3.

 

PFF had Allen as the highest graded QB in the NFL this season.  While the players voted Allen as the 2nd best QB just behind Mahomes in a recent poll.

 

Oh and my friends who support other NFL teams universally believe that Allen is a one of a kind elite player being let down by a team that won't invest in offensive talent to the same extent as the Chiefs, Bengals & Eagles.

 

BTW Burrow looked pretty bad to me in that loss to KC throwing only 1 TD and 2 INT's.

 

And I still don't get the idea that if Mahomes was drafted by Buffalo in 2017 he would be as successful as he's been at KC.  With a defensive minded coach in McD and the skill players the Bills put on the field?

 

 

2 hours ago, somnus00 said:

Mahomes has a top 3 all-time TE, a good o-line, and probably the most QB friendly offensive mind in the history of the NFL.

 

Burrow has Chase, Higgins, Mixon, Hurst, and Boyd. Stacked offense.

 

Rivers has 2 HOFers in Gates and Tomlinson.

 

Allen has Diggs.

And Allen has outperformed Rivers by a wide margin in the playoffs.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

   So far in his career, Josh has had similar success to what Rivers had, both having good regular season results, and being bumped out of the postseason.
   Until Josh accepts and learns that mixing in a more Brady esq style of QB ing will bring him the success he so covets, I suspect he and the Bills will get no further. Josh will always be considered a very good QB, but with a processing flaw that doesn’t allow him to make the correct choice to move the chains instead of an ill advised low percentage option, and then having to punt, (coaching as well has a fair bit to do with this) Josh really can be called the “mad bomber” at the his point …, 

 

GO BILLS!!! 🤞🤞🤞

Allen doesn't have a "processing flaw" he has a talent issue surrounding him. 

 

Allen has 4 playoff wins in 5 seasons Rivers had 3 in 17 seasons.  Allen has been remarkably productive in the playoffs Rivers was average at best. To say they are on similar trajectories is flat out wrong.

 

 

 

 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

21 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

This analogy has been made at least 2 or 3 times this past week on Schopp and Bulldog on GR-55.

 

Bulldog suggested Mahomes vs. Burrow feels like Brady vs. Manning, and Allen is Roethlisberger...or maybe even Rivers, as you suggest.

 

What concerns me is that Josh's game is at its best when he's a little out of control and living in the moment, doing crazy things with success on the field.  That's not sustainable and repeatable week in and week out.  And sure enough, look at the inconsistencies in his game....

 

 

 

 No Allen's game was at its best while being fully in control and having, statistically, the best postseason ever by a qb. It was like he was Neo in the Matrix last year. 

 

 We got a quick look at it again during the first few weeks of this year, then it slowly vanished away. I think as the injuries mounted early this year he felt the pressure to produce more. Then his own injury came, limiting his game.

 

 The best part about it is in the postseason, statistically, he's been a lot better than everyone listed(Including Ben, Brady, Manning) besides Mahomes, in every stat. I mean Brady is considered the goat, especially in the playoffs, his career postseason td/int ratio 2.25/1, Josh's 4.25/1, passing ypg Brady - 279, Josh - 292, comp% Brady 62.5, Josh 63.8, ypa Brady 6.98, Josh 7.55, QB Rating Brady 89.8, Josh 99.0. Seems like one had a team and coach around him that helped lead to his playoff success and the other had been left to do it mostly on his own. 

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

I like Rivers.  Huge fan.  Would be fine with it.  If Rivers’ arm hadn’t fallen off he might’ve won a championship.

[CincyBillsFan]

12 hours ago, Trock said:

Let’s give Josh one more year until we start negatively labeling him. His struggles are obvious though. 

If Allen is struggling what do you call the play of 28 other QB's not named Allen?

 

Allen has already proven that he's an elite QB and one of the top 5 in the NFL.  All that remains is for the Bills to narrow the enormous gap between the offensive talent (line + skill players) surrounding Allen and the talent surrounding Mahomes, Burrow & Hurts.  That Allen can be spoken of in the same breadth as these other QB's given the talent deficiencies around him suggests to me that with the right group of players on offense Allen would be at the top of any QB list.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by CincyBillsFan

[Don Otreply]

14 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Allen doesn't have a "processing flaw" he has a talent issue surrounding him. 

 

Allen has 4 playoff wins in 5 seasons Rivers had 3 in 17 seasons.  Allen has been remarkably productive in the playoffs Rivers was average at best. To say they are on similar trajectories is flat out wrong.

 

 

 

 

It’s the end results that count, is Josh a better QB than Rivers? Yes he is, but it’s the end results, stats don’t mean a lot if every season ends as they have ended, Compared to the ugly years of the drought, the Bills are doing f ing great imo, it just seems as if we have plateaued, and now less talent than we need, it’s up to Beane and McDermott to get it right, and they are starting to slip a bit, jmo, 

 

GO BILLS!!!

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

If Allen is struggling what do you call the play of 28 other QB's not named Allen?

 

Allen has already proven that he's an elite QB and one of the top 5 in the NFL.  All that remains is for the Bills to narrow the enormous gap between the offensive talent (line + skill players) surrounding Allen and the talent surrounding Mahomes, Burrow & Hurts.  That Allen can be spoken of in the same breadth as these other QB's given the talent deficiencies around him suggests to me that with the right group of players on offense Allen would be at the top of any QB list.

 

 

 

 

 

 If Allen was playing for any of the 4 teams playing last week he would've already had at least 1 Super Bowl title. His career postseason play is among the best ever and that's just on the passing end. He's by far the best running qb on that list and the biggest receiving threat too(Paging Mr. Daboll) lol. A perfect 1 target, 1 catch, 16 yards, 1 td.

 

 

 

 

[TheMightyMaxio]

[Coach Tuesday]

It’s one thing to compare the organizations but it’s insane to compare the players.  Rivers was a trash-taking immobile anticipation thrower with a mid-range arm.  How the hell is that Allen?  Again - I loved watching Rivers play but it’s nothing like watching Allen play.  Spanos is an aloof cash-poor owner.  They had LT in his prime but never built a great offense around Phil.  Defensive-minded coaches until Lynn came along.  So maybe the organizations compare?  This is a waste of a thread.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

13 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

It’s the end results that count, is Josh a better QB than Rivers? Yes he is, but it’s the end results, stats don’t mean a lot if every season ends as they have ended, Compared to the ugly years of the drought, the Bills are doing f ing great imo, it just seems as if we have plateaued, and now less talent than we need, it’s up to Beane and McDermott to get it right, and they are starting to slip a bit, jmo, 

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 So the better comparison would be the Bills(Allen era) vs the Chargers(Rivers era), no? Because that's where the comparisons stop. Statically in the postseason Allen has been the far superior QB between the 2.

 

 Allen 17 tds, 4 ints on 309 attempts in 8 games. Rivers 16 tds, 10 ints on 401 attempts in 12 games. QB Rating Allen 99.6, Rivers 85.3. Yds per game - Allen 2,334 yds/8 games - 291.8. Rivers 2,965/12 games - 247.1. We haven't even got to the running aspect yet.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[AlfaBill]

10 hours ago, Draconator said:

And people thought my take that Montana was better than Brady was out there...

Montana was better. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

3 minutes ago, AlfaBill said:

Montana was better. 

 

 Especially in the Super Bowl. Never had a qb rating lower than 100. His last 3 he averaged ~330 yards and had 10 tds with 0 ints and a qb rating of 134 collectively in those 3 games. The most impressive part about that is this was done in the mid to late 80s when defenses got away with alot more in the secondary and defenses could and did  blow up WRs and QBs on the regular.