PSA: This is Sean McDermott's defense, not Leslie Frazier's

[DapperCam]

Defense looks a lot better when McDermott is calling plays or more involved (I remember him specifically instructing Milano to shoot a gap which led to big plays one game).

 

I think scheme is influenced heavily by McDermott, but Frazier is otherwise in charge including play calling.

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Well, part of the problem is those teams are better than ours. The Bills were a superbowl favorite, and THAT was the great mirage. The Bills were overrated. They aren't there yet. We projected a lot of talent that didn't pan out. We thought Davis could be a #2. He couldn't. We thought McKenzie could be a slot. He couldn't. We thought Bates and Brown would progress. Instead, they regressed.

 

Compound that with all the injuries. The Bills were not as good as we thought they were.

Cheap excuses.....  Falls on the coaches again regardless.  If the Bills were not as good as the Bengals & Chiefs, then devise a game plan to beat them (or go down swinging).  They did not.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Not sure what the point is. Reid was a failure who choked on the biggest stage as his QB puked on the field.  Philadelphia moved on and won a SB. Reid moved on and won a SB. It has no bearing on Buffalo or McDermott. 

 

1 minute ago, Repulsif said:

so, all we have to do as fans is waiting McDermott hopefully follow the same path than Reid, and figure it 10-15 years from now ?

that's all you have ?

 

To Ethan, whether you see my point or not is irrelevant to you, I wasn't responding to a post of yours. And Holy Christ you both need to get a grip. My response was to another poster about Reid actually getting to the Super Bowl with the Eagles and McDermott hadn't. He had conveniently left out that he lost 4 straight years prior to going to the Super Bowl. And he was considered a failure before winning it all a few years ago after many, many postseason failures. Nothing more, nothing less. Repulsif, don't know where you got any of that from my post, reading is hard. I never even referred to McDermott or the Bills a single time in my post.😂

 

 

 

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

That feeds into what we're discussing.  As QB Bills said above, it depends upon how big one dreams.  

 

I'll relate it to entrepreneurship.  If someone starts a business, but never takes any chances, that business isn't likely to grow and become what it could have been.  

 

Many of us see that it's pretty obvious, and you seem to imply the same, that we're only going so far with McD, and that distance does not include a championship.  You seem to be content with it while others are not.  

 

Am I willing to risk possible regression in the hopes of winning the big prize?  Sure I am.  You are not, seemingly.  So it really depends upon one's perspectives and goals.  

 

Nothing wrong from a fan perspective simply wanting to go to and enjoy games, or enjoy them on TV.  Many fans have loftier goals tho, and upon realizing that those goals won't be met, they insist upon changes.  

 

McD "made the playoffs" with Taylor in 2017.  So why did we go get a QB?  (Allen)   

 

That's easy, to upgrade.  Many felt that Taylor wasn't adequate to win us a Super Bowl.  They were likely correct.  But we upgraded because he wasn't cutting the Webers.  

 

Are we not to try to upgrade our coaching, wherever therein the issue lies?   

 

Teams move on from good QBs constantly.  Look at Cousins.  Washington cast him off for that reason.  As merely one example.  

 

The question should be, why is coaching exempt.  

 

Look at it this way, before we had oscar meyer hot dogs.  Now we've upgraded to hebrew national, an improvement.  But neither are Sahlens or Zweigle's.  

 

I think Bezo's should have concentrated and continued to sell only books!!!!🤣

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, ILBillsfan said:

holding an opposing offense to under 30 is not something to use as a valid arguement...under the league avg scoring then yeah but tht is a data analyst scewing numbers to try and make a point, thus actually making your analyst look even worst

 

Last year's SB winner allowed an average of 18.75 PPG in the playoffs, a max of 27

2020 Season:  19.5, max of 26 

2019 Season:  25, max of 31  

2018 Season:  20.7, max of 31 

2017 Season:  16.7, max of 33 

2016 Season:  20.3, max of 28 

2015 Season:  20.7, max of 31 

2014 Season:  13.3, max of 17  

2013 Season:  22, max of 35 

2012 Season:  14, max of 20  

 

The average of those averages is 19.9.

 

Us over the past five playoff games:  29.8, with games allowing 31, 36, and 38.  

 

Here are some additional arguments.  In 2020, we allowed the Chiefs to score 38.  The Browns held them to 22 that season, and the Bucs to 9.  

Last season, of "13 Seconds" fame, we allowed 36 points to the Chiefs in regulation.  We had the 1st-ranked scoring D.  Pitt, with the 20th-ranked scoring D allowed 42, while Cinci and it's 17th-ranked D allowed 24.  

This season, our 2nd-ranked scoring D allowed 27 points to Cinci.  The Chiefs' 16th-ranked scoring D allowed only 20 to Cinci.  

 

It just doesn't seem as if playoff football is McD's gig.  

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by PBF81

[BarleyNY]

12 hours ago, QB Bills said:

I know everyone is still upset about that no-show against Cincinnati but what is going on with this fire Leslie Frazier movement? Don't know whether he's a good coordinator or not, but I've come to realize that his best quality is to take bullets for his incompetent boss.

 

Do fans not realize that McDermott is running the show on that side of the ball? Can you imagine if the Chiefs' offense continually crapped the bed in the playoffs and people said "you know who needs to go? Bienemy. He's really making Andy Reid look bad." Would anyone take that person seriously?

Agreed. I’ve been saying the same thing. Same focus on the same positions. Lots of players brought to Buffalo from Carolina and lots of similarities between other additions and what he had. For example, it didn’t take McD long to try to get his new Kuechly with Edmunds. Same zone concepts even if some have evolved a little. I don’t know how much McD is involved these days, but his finger prints are all over the defensive scheme and personnel. 

[Big Turk]

12 hours ago, QB Bills said:

I know everyone is still upset about that no-show against Cincinnati but what is going on with this fire Leslie Frazier movement? Don't know whether he's a good coordinator or not, but I've come to realize that his best quality is to take bullets for his incompetent boss.

 

Do fans not realize that McDermott is running the show on that side of the ball? Can you imagine if the Chiefs' offense continually crapped the bed in the playoffs and people said "you know who needs to go? Bienemy. He's really making Andy Reid look bad." Would anyone take that person seriously?

 

He isn't. Except in your mind. McD living rent free there.

[PBF81]

29 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

Defense looks a lot better when McDermott is calling plays or more involved (I remember him specifically instructing Milano to shoot a gap which led to big plays one game).

 

I think scheme is influenced heavily by McDermott, but Frazier is otherwise in charge including play calling.

 

Well, we know that something's causing our defense to play like crap in the playoffs, they should correct it, whatever it is.  HINT:  It wasn't the Safeties coach.  

5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Agreed. I’ve been saying the same thing. Same focus on the same positions. Lots of players brought to Buffalo from Carolina and lots of similarities between other additions and what he had. For example, it didn’t take McD long to try to get his new Kuechly with Edmunds. Same zone concepts even if some have evolved a little. I don’t know how much McD is involved these days, but his finger prints are all over the defensive scheme and personnel. 

 

You raise a good point by implication.  Good coaches figure things out on their own, they don't have to try to reinvent what they've seen elsewhere.  Every team is different, if you try and coach it the same way that you coached another team, that's a mistake.  McD apparently cannot do that.  

 

In other words, a good coach takes the talent that he has, and maximizes it.  I don't think that there are too many people out there, including McD apologists, that would strongly suggest that he's gotten the most out of this roster, ... that he contributed to building by the way.  

 

In fact, come playoff time he gets less out of it defensively.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by PBF81

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

Well, part of the problem is those teams are better than ours. The Bills were a superbowl favorite, and THAT was the great mirage. The Bills were overrated. They aren't there yet. We projected a lot of talent that didn't pan out. We thought Davis could be a #2. He couldn't. We thought McKenzie could be a slot. He couldn't. We thought Bates and Brown would progress. Instead, they regressed.

 

Compound that with all the injuries. The Bills were not as good as we thought they were.

I call Bull.  Experts all had Buffalo as the favourite.  If these teams are better then the Bills, then guess what?????

 

Coaches didn't do their jobs coaching players up or making the right calls on the field.

 

Revisionist history.  

 

Find one publication that said the Bills weren't going to be as good (or better then Cincy or KC).  And then too find one that questioned the coaching (that's our job🤣).  

[RyanC883]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

How could it plummet to 32nd in the playoffs when there are only 14 teams in the playoffs?

 

nit-picking.  Are you happy with the playoff performance.  Almost lost to a rookie QB on Miami, and then couldn't get pressure against a OL with 3 backups starting.  This following 13 seconds, and many times during the season giving up 3rd and long.  This D is anything but clutch, and if it played against better QBs this year would have a much worse regular season (i.e. who cares) ranking.  The D is built for mediocracy.  

[Mc1320]

Something needs to change - regular season stats look great, but the D has been torched in 3 straight playoff losses.

[MJS]

3 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, here's the problem with that.  We were just talking about our highly ranked defense.  #1 for much of the season, #2 in the final analysis.  

 

How come we're so good during the season, but for the last three seasons, in the postseaon, our D no-shows?  

 

Once again, from my post above, here are the points allowed this post-season by the teams considered to be contenders, and it's the contenders that we need to beat.  

 

Us:  29 PPG in Playoffs 

Cinci:  13.5 PPG in Playoffs 

KC:  20 PPG in Playoffs 

Philly:  7 PPG in Playoffs 

Niners:  17.5 PPG in Playoffs 

 

Are they all really that much better than us?  I don't think that KC is 9 PPG better than us for example.  The others might be, but 15.5 PPG different (Cinci), 22 (Eagles), 11.5 (Niners)?  

 

And for the sake of argument, say that your argument is true at face value.  Whose fault is that then?  Because at some point this must then come around to Beane.  

 

Instead, we get this circular method of reasoning with apologists pointing to McD, those pointing to Frasier, those pointing to Beane, and they just keep fingerpointing at others.  That's not going to correct things, ... neither is firing the Safeties Coach, the one coach whose two starters were missing much of the season, one all of it, the other some of it while playing injured the rest of the time, but when they did play healthy they were tops and his only starting S was regarded as the best at his position.  

 

Just sayin'.   

Small sample sizes, for one. During the regular season you play your schedule, which is a mix of bad and good teams. During the playoffs you are only playing good team. But the main issue is small sample size. An average from one or two games is not sufficient to really have meaningful comparison. But I do think those teams are better than the Bills, at least on the AFC side. Who knows on the NFC side?

[HomeskillitMoorman]

2 hours ago, DapperCam said:

Defense looks a lot better when McDermott is calling plays or more involved (I remember him specifically instructing Milano to shoot a gap which led to big plays one game).

 

I think scheme is influenced heavily by McDermott, but Frazier is otherwise in charge including play calling.

 

But again...if playcalling isn't up to McDermott's standards, he has the option to make a change there. He never has. Whose fault is that ultimately? Frazier isn't going to fire himself. 

 

I don't see an angle in which this isn't McDermott's failure and responsibility. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by HomeskillitMoorman

[MJS]

3 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

holding an opposing offense to under 30 is not something to use as a valid arguement...under the league avg scoring then yeah but tht is a data analyst scewing numbers to try and make a point, thus actually making your analyst look even worst

Actually, that's the threshold for winning games. That's why they say "the first to 30 wins". If you can consistently score close to or over 30 points a game, you are likely going to win most of your games.

[Nextmanup]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

It's all on McDermott when it comes to defense.  It's his specialty.  He could've taken over play calling at any time during the Bengals game.  Firing Frazier would have been a save your own butt type move.  I'm in the minority when I say I'm glad he didn't.

Not sure what you mean by this.  Why are you glad he didn't fire Frazier? Because it takes away that scapegoat for McDermott and allows pressure and heat to build on him specifically going forward?  

 

Or is just that you think Frazier is a good DC?

 

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Last year's SB winner allowed an average of 18.75 PPG in the playoffs, a max of 27

2020 Season:  19.5, max of 26 

2019 Season:  25, max of 31  

2018 Season:  20.7, max of 31 

2017 Season:  16.7, max of 33 

2016 Season:  20.3, max of 28 

2015 Season:  20.7, max of 31 

2014 Season:  13.3, max of 17  

2013 Season:  22, max of 35 

2012 Season:  14, max of 20  

 

The average of those averages is 19.9.

 

Us over the past five playoff games:  29.8, with games allowing 31, 36, and 38.  

 

Here are some additional arguments.  In 2020, we allowed the Chiefs to score 38.  The Browns held them to 22 that season, and the Bucs to 9.  

Last season, of "13 Seconds" fame, we allowed 36 points to the Chiefs in regulation.  We had the 1st-ranked scoring D.  Pitt, with the 20th-ranked scoring D allowed 42, while Cinci and it's 17th-ranked D allowed 24.  

This season, our 2nd-ranked scoring D allowed 27 points to Cinci.  The Chiefs' 16th-ranked scoring D allowed only 20 to Cinci.  

 

It just doesn't seem as if playoff football is McD's gig.  

 

When playoffs begin we see Sean struggle against a higher tier of opponents. If he's allowing Frazier to completely call the defensive game plan then maybe that too is a huge issue. From week 3 on the offense just looked off and disorganized. Now all the sports shows including Cowherd etc are saying the Bills have regressed.  So back to the drawing board and under the radar.

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I call Bull.  Experts all had Buffalo as the favourite.  If these teams are better then the Bills, then guess what?????

 

Coaches didn't do their jobs coaching players up or making the right calls on the field.

 

Revisionist history.  

 

Find one publication that said the Bills weren't going to be as good (or better then Cincy or KC).  And then too find one that questioned the coaching (that's our job🤣).  

What do preseason experts and publications have to do with anything? They are just people spit balling and trying to make money with their content. It doesn't actually mean anything.

 

What did all those experts predict for the Seahawks and Giants? What did they predict for the Broncos?

[WyoAZBillfan]

9 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Okay I'm a Bills fan and yes I watch a lot of football I only get wrapped up here.

 

We all saw what happened vs. Cincy and it was not pretty. 

 

The playoffs are a different beast and all year we saw the warts on the defense and yes injuries played a significant factor, but to be swiss cheese regardless of who is put out there is unacceptable. 

 

Let's not forget Cincy was missing 3 OL and did whatever they wanted.  They could have put up 40 if they needed to.

 

Bills fans know that they got lucky with Allen and he has become a QB beyond probably their expectations and they haven't done enough for him on that side of the ball, because this is essentially McD's team.

 

McD is a Defence first coach and spent the money there and constructed a defense that he and Frazier have run for years.

 

They have been terrible the last 4 playoff losses and really played what amounts to 3 decent games in the playoffs (Jax, Baltimore & NE).  

 

They have been terrible the last 3 and this is their philosophy on D.  Bend, don't break and hope for a mistake (fumble, tipped pass....).  They have allowed 29,29 & 30 First downs to opponents a ridiculously high #.

 

And no I will not forget 13 seconds, where two masterminds completely blew it.

You had merit until 13 seconds. If that kick off is appropriate for the situation. KC likely don’t move into position with time left on the board. 
To say the D was terrible in last 3 playoff losses, do you also say the opponents D was terrible as well? The Bengals beat us easily, KC needed a horrible decision and a ton of luck to give them the win with the 13 seconds. AFCC the Bills weren’t even supposed to be there, kind of a wash to say the D was terrible if comparing to other games that year. 

7 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

So then why does it plummet in the playoffs to what would essentially rank last?  ... 32nd that is. 

There’s not 32 in the playoffs, that’sa flawed argument, especially when they make it past wildcard round. 

[WyoAZBillfan]

7 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

This is definitely the #1 problem in the organization czar type coaches hardly ever win anything. 

See Bill B with the Pats. Reid in KC and Jimmy Johnson in the 90’s. Possibly the 80’s 49’ers and get back to the board. 

[WyoAZBillfan]

6 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Without Josh Allen?

 

Let's be real here... the Bills are winning those many games because of Josh. Put McDermott on the Titans or the Jets or the Giants and he's not even CLOSE to winning the same amount of games. Josh Allen is getting run into the ground and it is the poor PLAYOFF performance that is the issue here as well... and we are not seeing any improvement. 

How many of those games are close or relatively close until the D gets that turnover or stop and JA puts it away? I can recall (last season?) Dolphins, Rams games. JA beat the Titans with that sneak?  Certainly not the Pats wind game.. 

im the biggest JA fan around, but others definitely have helped win games. 
 

5 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

What's the difference?

 

He made CHANGES ON OFFENSE... when we had problems scoring, he brought in Daboll and cleaned house. So now that our defense is a major problem against top teams, I don't see those changes. That's complacency and it's not going to get us to where we want to be,

Can’t argue this logic, I don’t see McD as the problem this season though.