PSA: This is Sean McDermott's defense, not Leslie Frazier's

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 hour ago, Jrb1979 said:

 

Difference is Reid still got to a Super Bowl with his first team. It wasn't til his second team that he figured it out. 

 

 Andy lost 4 straight years in the playoffs before reaching the Super Bowl with the Eagles. This year is the 18th time he's made the playoffs and the 4th time reaching the Super Bowl. 3 of those 4 Super Bowl appearances happened in just the last 4 years.  So he reached the Super Bowl once in his first 14 playoff trips. He was very much considered a failure until just a few years ago. Now he’s gone 9-2 in his last 4 postseasons and is considered one of the best coaches.

 

 

 

 

[PBF81]

17 minutes ago, MJS said:

Of the Bills 8 playoff games in the Josh Allen era, the Bills have given up 30 or more points 3 times. 5 times they held the other team under 30.

 

Conversely, the offense has only put up 30 or more points 3 times, and were held to under 30 points 5 times.

 

The offense in the playoffs is a bigger issue than the defense. And the oline is a big reason for that.

 

Yes, we need to evolve on defense, but if we can get the offense humming like we know they can, we'll get to the superbowl.

 

I'm not sure that the discussion revolves around correcting it at this point.  But to your point, before you correct it, you have to know why it's not working. 

 

There's an inexplicable (or explicable depending upon one's viewpoint) reason for why we have the 2nd-ranked scoring D in the league during the regular season, but for the past couple seasons it plays to dead last standards in the playoffs by the same regular season standards.  ... and worse than any other serious championship contender.  Remember, we were favored this season to win it all.  

 

Us:  29 PPG in Playoffs 

Cinci:  13.5 PPG in Playoffs 

KC:  20 PPG in Playoffs 

Philly:  7 PPG in Playoffs 

Niners:  17.5 PPG in Playoffs 

 

Someone responded that teams crank up their offense in the postseason.  The reality is that they crank up their D too.  So why couldn't we, but the rest of the contenders could? 

 

That's a discrepancy that really needs to be accounted for.  My argument is that since the players didn't change, and other than for Miller we essentially had all of our guys back for the playoffs, it shouldn't be the players.  It can only be one other thing.  

 

McD has a lot of power here apparently, which should have been obvious when they hired him and let him choose his own GM essentially.  He is defensive minded, but people posting here seem to be split as to whether it's a Frazier-controlled offense or a McD-controlled offense.  

 

But shrouding that status in mystery, by McD, also points to a coaching issue in the form of a cover-up of sorts, and to be frank, a lack of accountability.  I mean how many times can coaches state the obvious, "we just need to do better," when using it as an excuse for a loss.  I mean, yeah, duh!  What, we as fans didn't know that.  Yet, that's the rote response of McD's.   He himself says that Frasier's running the D.  So which is it coach?  

 

And to be straight here, who cares if we have the #1 D all season but then come into the playoffs and play like we have the last ranked D.  Frankly, I'd rather rest our defensive players some during the season, let the offense win the games, even if we finish 10-7 and make the playoffs, who cares if then we crank the D up.  I'd rather have that.  Regular season rankings in and of themselves don't win games.  At times I get the impression that our team seems to think that once our D steps onto the field that for some other inexplicable reason the opposing offense is just going to mentally collapse and cash it in because our D is ranked so highly and due to that stigma.  That seems how we play sometimes.  

 

If the choice were finishing with the #1 ranked offense and defense and losing the AFC CG or in the D round, or limping into the playoffs at 10-7, hell, or even 9-8, tightening things up, then winning the Super Bowl, I'd choose the latter.  That's just me tho.  

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by PBF81

[Robert Paulson]

4 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Okay I'm a Bills fan and yes I watch a lot of football I only get wrapped up here.

 

We all saw what happened vs. Cincy and it was not pretty. 

 

The playoffs are a different beast and all year we saw the warts on the defense and yes injuries played a significant factor, but to be swiss cheese regardless of who is put out there is unacceptable. 

 

Let's not forget Cincy was missing 3 OL and did whatever they wanted.  They could have put up 40 if they needed to.

 

Bills fans know that they got lucky with Allen and he has become a QB beyond probably their expectations and they haven't done enough for him on that side of the ball, because this is essentially McD's team.

 

McD is a Defence first coach and spent the money there and constructed a defense that he and Frazier have run for years.

 

They have been terrible the last 4 playoff losses and really played what amounts to 3 decent games in the playoffs (Jax, Baltimore & NE).  

 

They have been terrible the last 3 and this is their philosophy on D.  Bend, don't break and hope for a mistake (fumble, tipped pass....).  They have allowed 29,29 & 30 First downs to opponents a ridiculously high #.

 

And no I will not forget 13 seconds, where two masterminds completely blew it.

agreed, now maybe the coaches know things we don't like the team was emotionally, physically, mentally exhausted before the cinci game but why not go down fighting by playing tight man on 3rd and 4 instead of giving up in a soft zone all game. it just doesn't make sense still

 

by playing soft zone all day we essentially surrendered. Cinci knew it and by 14"s reaction at the end of the game  the team knew it as well- the coaches surrendered. 

 

this can't happen again

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I'm not sure that the discussion revolves around correcting it at this point.  But to your point, before you correct it, you have to know why it's not working. 

 

There's an inexplicable (or explicable depending upon one's viewpoint) reason for why we have the 2nd-ranked scoring D in the league during the regular season, but for the past couple seasons it plays to dead last standards in the playoffs by the same regular season standards.  ... and worse than any other serious championship contender.  Remember, we were favored this season to win it all.  

 

Us:  29 PPG in Playoffs 

Cinci:  13.5 PPG in Playoffs 

KC:  20 PPG in Playoffs 

Philly:  7 PPG in Playoffs 

Niners:  17.5 PPG in Playoffs 

 

That's a discrepancy that really needs to be accounted for.  My argument is that since the players didn't change, and other than for Miller we essentially had all of our guys back for the playoffs, it shouldn't be the players.  It can only be one other thing.  

 

McD has a lot of power here apparently, which should have been obvious when they hired him and let him choose his own GM essentially.  He is defensive minded, but people posting here seem to be split as to whether it's a Frazier-controlled offense or a McD-controlled offense.  

 

But shrouding that status in mystery, by McD, also points to a coaching issue in the form of a cover-up of sorts.  

 

And to be straight here, who cares if we have the #1 D all season but then come into the playoffs and play like we have the last ranked D.  Frankly, I'd rather rest our defensive players some during the season, let the offense win the games, even if we finish 10-7 and make the playoffs, who cares if then we crank the D up.  I'd rather have that.  Regular season rankings in and of themselves don't win games.  At times I get the impression that our team seems to think that once our D steps onto the field that for some other inexplicable reason the opposing offense is just going to mentally collapse and cash it in because our D is ranked so highly and due to that stigma.  That seems how we play sometimes.  

Well, part of the problem is those teams are better than ours. The Bills were a superbowl favorite, and THAT was the great mirage. The Bills were overrated. They aren't there yet. We projected a lot of talent that didn't pan out. We thought Davis could be a #2. He couldn't. We thought McKenzie could be a slot. He couldn't. We thought Bates and Brown would progress. Instead, they regressed.

 

Compound that with all the injuries. The Bills were not as good as we thought they were.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

That's how forums and fans are.  In five more seasons that "state-run blind McDermott support" sentiment as you state it, will turn to what we're saying now.   Some people catch on sooner than others.  

 

Coaching held us back during our SB years too.  Can you imagine if we'd had Parcells or Johnson.  We'd have won a championship or two.  

This team has good players and talent.  They just have mediocre coaches who fans have blindly fallen in love with for digging the Bills out of the drought.  McDermott runs the whole show. He's in charge of Beane. He definitely influences defensive picks. If you want to blame Beane for Basham & Epenesa you're flat out naive. With each playoff exit, more and more fans will realize this.

Edited February 3, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[PBF81]

8 minutes ago, MJS said:

Well, part of the problem is those teams are better than ours. The Bills were a superbowl favorite, and THAT was the great mirage. The Bills were overrated. They aren't there yet. We projected a lot of talent that didn't pan out. We thought Davis could be a #2. He couldn't. We thought McKenzie could be a slot. He couldn't. We thought Bates and Brown would progress. Instead, they regressed.

 

Compound that with all the injuries. The Bills were not as good as we thought they were.

 

Well, here's the problem with that.  We were just talking about our highly ranked defense.  #1 for much of the season, #2 in the final analysis.  

 

How come we're so good during the season, but for the last three seasons, in the postseaon, our D no-shows?  

 

Once again, from my post above, here are the points allowed this post-season by the teams considered to be contenders, and it's the contenders that we need to beat.  

 

Us:  29 PPG in Playoffs 

Cinci:  13.5 PPG in Playoffs 

KC:  20 PPG in Playoffs 

Philly:  7 PPG in Playoffs 

Niners:  17.5 PPG in Playoffs 

 

Are they all really that much better than us?  I don't think that KC is 9 PPG better than us for example.  The others might be, but 15.5 PPG different (Cinci), 22 (Eagles), 11.5 (Niners)?  

 

And for the sake of argument, say that your argument is true at face value.  Whose fault is that then?  Because at some point this must then come around to Beane.  

 

Instead, we get this circular method of reasoning with apologists pointing to McD, those pointing to Frasier, those pointing to Beane, and they just keep fingerpointing at others.  That's not going to correct things, ... neither is firing the Safeties Coach, the one coach whose two starters were missing much of the season, one all of it, the other some of it while playing injured the rest of the time, but when they did play healthy they were tops and his only starting S was regarded as the best at his position.  

 

Just sayin'.   

Edited February 3, 2023 by PBF81

[QB Bills]

The drought has emotionally scarred many Bills fans. We're finally a good team and people are afraid of any kind of big change for fear that we'll go back to being an afterthought. The reasons for keeping McDermott are all backwards looking in that sense. Some of you need to dream bigger.

 

From what I've seen the past few years are seasons with the most naturally gifted player at the most important position in his prime being wasted. I was screaming to fire McDermott after the first KC playoff loss after it became clear to me that we would only ever win big in spite of him. It sucks when you just wish your coach won't get in the way. I don't have any confidence that we'll ever have a head coaching advantage in any big game. I'd rather we turn the page sooner instead of having this same conversation a year from now with another season of Allen getting beat up.

[John from Riverside]

36 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

That's how forums and fans are.  In five more seasons that "state-run blind McDermott support" sentiment as you state it, will turn to what we're saying now.   Some people catch on sooner than others.  

 

Coaching held us back during our SB years too.  Can you imagine if we'd had Parcells or Johnson.  We'd have won a championship or two.  

For every Parcells and Johnson there were 30 something other coaches that would’ve driven the team into the toilet
 

People seem to forget that the statistical chance that you go back from a winning coach whenever you’re winning now is higher than finding a coach that he’s gonna put you over the top that is a statistical fact

[PBF81]

7 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

This team has good players and talent.  They just have mediocre coaches who fans have blindly fallen in love with for digging the Bills out of the drought.  With each playoff exit, more and more fans will realize this.

 

Agreed.  And that's the question that everyone needs to ask themselves, what is the standard, the level of expectation.  If it's simply to outplay our 6.6 wins/season since our last playoff appearance before they got here, that's one thing.  They've done that and continue to do it.  But for many of us that's not what it's all about, it's about winning a championship.  Which they haven't even sniffed.  The shortcomings have been discussed here ad nauseum.  

 

But here's the thing, fan pressure often helps initiate changes.  Allen's not getting any younger and his style of play isn't going to go far into his 30s.  We're already eyeing a rebuild of sorts with some of our better players leaving, best in one case with Poyer.  Oliver and Edmunds could be gone, neither is stellar, but they're among our better players.  

 

While more and more fans will realize this, by the time that they do, Allen may be spent.  And when will they realize it if we keep "making the playoffs," in what to date has been poor division during their tenure.   During McD's time here, the Jets haven't made the playoffs at all.  Miami once, and they nearly beat us with Skylar Thompson, in our house, and over the past four seasons without Brady NE has made it twice, being ousted in the WC round twice, getting hammered by us and getting beaten by a mediocre Titans team.  

 

We can speculate as to how long Allen can keep this pace up playing superman ball, but at the same time he's always one good hit away from who knows what.  He takes a whole lot more pounding than most if not all QBs.  

[PBF81]

13 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

The drought has emotionally scarred many Bills fans. We're finally a good team and people are afraid of any kind of big change for fear that we'll go back to being an afterthought. The reasons for keeping McDermott are all backwards looking in that sense. Some of you need to dream bigger.

 

From what I've seen the past few years are seasons with the most naturally gifted player at the most important position in his prime being wasted. I was screaming to fire McDermott after the first KC playoff loss after it became clear to me that we would only ever win big in spite of him. It sucks when you just wish your coach won't get in the way. I don't have any confidence that we'll ever have a head coaching advantage in any big game. I'd rather we turn the page sooner instead of having this same conversation a year from now with another season of Allen getting beat up.

 

That's it right there, some need to dream bigger.  

 

Imagine if Kurt Warner had come into the league from stocking shelves at a supermarket as he was, and had been satisfied with a backup QB job.  ... for example.  

 

Again, what's the goal, a championship, or to simply outperform the team that averaged 6.6 wins/season from our last playoff appearance to when they got here.  

 

Some people appear to be satisfied with that.  As long as we have well ranked offenses and defenses, simply make the playoffs despite never advancing to a Super Bowl, and have Allen, I guess their goals are met.  Which is fine I suppose, it's just not our goals.  

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

For every Parcells and Johnson there were 30 something other coaches that would’ve driven the team into the toilet
 

People seem to forget that the statistical chance that you go back from a winning coach whenever you’re winning now is higher than finding a coach that he’s gonna put you over the top that is a statistical fact

 

That feeds into what we're discussing.  As QB Bills said above, it depends upon how big one dreams.  

 

I'll relate it to entrepreneurship.  If someone starts a business, but never takes any chances, that business isn't likely to grow and become what it could have been.  

 

Many of us see that it's pretty obvious, and you seem to imply the same, that we're only going so far with McD, and that distance does not include a championship.  You seem to be content with it while others are not.  

 

Am I willing to risk possible regression in the hopes of winning the big prize?  Sure I am.  You are not, seemingly.  So it really depends upon one's perspectives and goals.  

 

Nothing wrong from a fan perspective simply wanting to go to and enjoy games, or enjoy them on TV.  Many fans have loftier goals tho, and upon realizing that those goals won't be met, they insist upon changes.  

 

McD "made the playoffs" with Taylor in 2017.  So why did we go get a QB?  (Allen)   

 

That's easy, to upgrade.  Many felt that Taylor wasn't adequate to win us a Super Bowl.  They were likely correct.  But we upgraded because he wasn't cutting the Webers.  

 

Are we not to try to upgrade our coaching, wherever therein the issue lies?   

 

Teams move on from good QBs constantly.  Look at Cousins.  Washington cast him off for that reason.  As merely one example.  

 

The question should be, why is coaching exempt.  

 

Look at it this way, before we had oscar meyer hot dogs.  Now we've upgraded to hebrew national, an improvement.  But neither are Sahlens or Zweigle's.  

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by PBF81

[ILBillsfan]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

McDermott took the Bills to the playoffs his first year with a crap team and crap QB.

They back doored the playoffs very lucky

[ILBillsfan]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Of the Bills 8 playoff games in the Josh Allen era, the Bills have given up 30 or more points 3 times. 5 times they held the other team under 30.

 

Conversely, the offense has only put up 30 or more points 3 times, and were held to under 30 points 5 times.

 

The offense in the playoffs is a bigger issue than the defense. And the oline is a big reason for that.

 

Yes, we need to evolve on defense, but if we can get the offense humming like we know they can, we'll get to the superbowl.

holding an opposing offense to under 30 is not something to use as a valid arguement...under the league avg scoring then yeah but tht is a data analyst scewing numbers to try and make a point, thus actually making your analyst look even worst

[Allen2Moulds]

We can all argue about who's defense this is, or how great they've ranked, but there's one thing that can't be debated. Outside of the Baltimore game, they've stunk in the playoffs. 

The other thing that sticks out to me, and bothers me even more is what the Bengals players were saying, leading up to the reg season matchup. I know they talk a lot of smack, and ignore most of it. But a few of their players on offense, basically called our defense simple and predictable, and that there wasn't much to it. The next 4.5 Quarters, they simply proved it. They played like they knew exactly what was coming each time. We were grossly out coached on both sides of the ball.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Allen2Moulds

[Mango]

I don’t think “scheme” is the problem. It’s not so much a flawed defense as it is just flat out bad play calling. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 Andy lost 4 straight years in the playoffs before reaching the Super Bowl with the Eagles. This year is the 18th time he's made the playoffs and the 4th time reaching the Super Bowl. 3 of those 4 Super Bowl appearances happened in just the last 4 years.  So he reached the Super Bowl once in his first 14 playoff trips. He was very much considered a failure until just a few years ago. Now he’s gone 9-2 in his last 4 postseasons and is considered one of the best coaches.

 

 

 

 

Not sure what the point is. Reid was a failure who choked on the biggest stage as his QB puked on the field.  Philadelphia moved on and won a SB. Reid moved on and won a SB. It has no bearing on Buffalo or McDermott. 

[Repulsif]

2 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 Andy lost 4 straight years in the playoffs before reaching the Super Bowl with the Eagles. This year is the 18th time he's made the playoffs and the 4th time reaching the Super Bowl. 3 of those 4 Super Bowl appearances happened in just the last 4 years.  So he reached the Super Bowl once in his first 14 playoff trips. He was very much considered a failure until just a few years ago. Now he’s gone 9-2 in his last 4 postseasons and is considered one of the best coaches.

 

 

 

 

so, all we have to do as fans is waiting McDermott hopefully follow the same path than Reid, and figure it 10-15 years from now ?

that's all you have ?

[Trock]

Frazier is definitely to blame. He needs to be fired. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

McDermott took the Bills to the playoffs his first year with a crap team and crap QB.

And during that year McDermott started Nathan Peterman on the road and played for a tie in OT with the playoffs still a possibility. I would not hold that season up as an example of his great coaching. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, ILBillsfan said:

holding an opposing offense to under 30 is not something to use as a valid arguement...under the league avg scoring then yeah but tht is a data analyst scewing numbers to try and make a point, thus actually making your analyst look even worst

 

31 points would have won 8 of the last 13 Super Bowls.  

 

One could argue that you are ignoring numbers to make a point.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by PBF81