Looking at our options to rebuild the o-line in 2023

[CSBill]

11 hours ago, HOUSE said:

You might  I say might see one new starter...

Hate to ruin your day

 

And he will be from the draft--a Guard.

[Bill from NYC]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Former Bills OL coach Karl Mauck projected as a first round pick for a Gilligans Island re-boot.

He used to stand next to Levy and the two of them would be shouting obscenities at the refs for what seemed like most of the game. On TV you could even see the saliva flying out of their mouths.  Sometimes Mauch would be screaming obscenities at refs when Levy was quiet. I would have told him to shut the f$#@ up before we get penalized, but by that time Levy was not 100% coherent imo.

 

Being a Bills Fan is great. I would not trade being one to root for any other team, but as Jerry Garcia said, "what a long, strange trip it's been."  👍🏈😲😃

[Southern Bills Fan]

I wish that everyone would stop with the "we could have had this guy" stuff. We don't have that guy. There are always guys that end up better than people think.

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, Einstein said:

In my opinion, we missed a prime opportunity to rebuild the o-line the last two off-seasons. I did a bit of thinking about what we could have done last offseason and that's the first part of the post, but then below that I go over what options are available this offseason.

 

O-line we could have had maybe

 

LT- Dion Dawkins

LG- Brandon Scherff or Ryan Bates (I prefer Bates)

C- Creed Humphrey

RG- James Daniels

RT- L'aell Collins

 

Collins signed a 3 year, $21M contract with the Bengals last off-season. 

Daniels signed a 3 year, $26.5M contract with the Steelers last off-season.

Scherff signed a 3 year, $49.5M contract with the Ravens last off-season. 

Creed Humphrey is on a rookie 4 year, $5.5M contract with the Chiefs.

 

All of these players COMBINED were signed/drafted for LESS than the Bills gave Von Miller (in both total money and guaranteed money). Would you trade Von for a brand new o-line? I like Von, but I think I would do that trade. In addition to this, we would have offset the $19.5M given to Morse last year (on a 2 year deal), and $6.5M we gave to Saffold to be a turnstile this year. I guess you could say that we dont know if some of these players would have wanted to come to Buffalo, but I think the days of players spurning Buffalo just because are over.

 

 

 

 

This is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. To say that they were signed for less, you have to spin like a nuclear-powered dreidel.

 

This year, Von Miller's cap hit was $5.15M

 

This year, Creed Humphrey's cap hit was $1.264M, La'el Collns' was $4.666M, James Daniels' was $4.166M and Scherff's was $7.647M

 

So bringing in those four would have totalled $17.743 this last year. That's about $12.5M extra this year compared to Von, in a year when we were $1.9M over the cap.

 

Next year, 2023, on the other hand, it's a bit different. 

 

Von Miller's cap hit will be $18.615M.

 

Whereas Scherff's will be $20.941M. See where this is going? Daniels' will be $11.166M, Collins' will be $9.384M and Humphreys' will be $1.51M. That's a grand total of $43.001M, meaning $24.386M more next year than Von. In a year where right now we're right now $20.511M over the cap already.

 

Same thing for 2024, much more for them than for Von.

 

Probably people have already posted this. Sorry if I'm repeating. But what utter and complete nonsense.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Einstein]

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

To say that they were signed for less, you have to spin like a nuclear-powered dreidel.

 

They did sign for less. Both in total money AND guaranteed money. Cap amounts are a formulaic rule based on many factors including structuring and years and not only the total/guaranteed amount you pay the player.

 

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

This year, Von Miller's cap hit was $5.15M

 

This year, Creed Humphrey's cap hit was $1.264M, La'el Collns' was $4.666M, James Daniels' was $4.166M and Scherff's was $7.647M

 

So bringing in those four would have totalled $17.743 this last year. That's about $12.5M extra this year compared to Von, in a year when we were $1.9M over the cap.

 

You forgot that we would have saved $4.2M in cap for not signing Saffold and $8M in cap for not signing Morse and $5.15M for not signing Von and almost $2M for not signing Quess.

 

So let's do some math here.

 

Humphrey: 1.3M

Collins: 4.6M

Daniels: 4.2M

Scherff: 7.7M

 

Total of: 17.8M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

17.8M

- 4.2M for Saffold

- 8.0M for Morse

- 1.8M for Quessenbery (since Bates would become the backup T)

- 5.15M for Von

---------------

= $1.35M SURPLUS

 

We would have saved $1,350,000 more (not spent 12.5M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2022.

 

And that's not including the fact that you missed my comment in the original post saying I wouldn't have signed Scherff. I would have just used Bates in hi LG spot. 

 

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Next year, 2023, on the other hand, it's a bit different. 

 

Von Miller's cap hit will be $18.615M.

 

Whereas Scherff's will be $20.941M. See where this is going? Daniels' will be $11.166M, Collins' will be $9.384M and Humphreys' will be $1.51M. That's a grand total of $43.001M, meaning $24.386M more next year than Von. In a year where right now we're right now $20.511M over the cap already.

 

 

OK, let's do some math again.

 

Humphrey: 1.5M

Collins: 9.4M

Daniels: 11.2M

Scherff: 20.9M

 

Total of: 43M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

43M

- 4M for whatever player they would have replace Saffold with

- 11.1M for Morse

- 1.8M for whatever player they would have replaced Quessenberry with

- 18.6M for Von

---------------

= $7.5M

 

We would have spent $7.5M more (not 24M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2023.

 

Now, being that Beane's contracts have been well designed, he likely adds on bonus years for Schlerff and Daniels, just like he did with Von. That's the only reason Von's cap number is reasonable, even if his total number is not. If Beane did that, the $7.2M all but disappears altogether.

 

Personally, as I said in the original post, I wouldn't have signed Schlerff. I would have slid Bates into LG like we did in late 2021 and he did great. Doing that REALLY obliterates any cost overruns. That would bring Year 1 savings to almost $9M and year 2 savings to around $12M.

 

And the line would have been:

 

LT: Dawkins

LG: Bates

C- Humphrey

RG: Daniels

RT: Collins

 

Long story short, your numbers were way off.

 

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Probably people have already posted this. Sorry if I'm repeating. But what utter and complete nonsense.

 

Nope. No one else posted this, because the other people in this thread read my post for what it said, not what you wanted it to say. They also didn't forget to subtract numerous players on the team that wouldn't be here if we signed an entire new o-line.

 

And for what it’s worth, I personally would have been fine with them even spending $10M more in cap for a brand new o-line rather than having, say, Poyer, who I really like but is worth less than an entire o-line.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Einstein

[Nihilarian]

 

According to PFF, the Bills ended up having the 23rd best offensive line in the NFL last season. Not the best finish, and it’s not the best look considering the year prior. Buffalo dropped two spots from their final rating at No. 21 at the end of the 2021 season.

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2023/02/02/pro-football-focus-buffalo-bills-offensive-line-rankings-dion-dawkins-mitch-morse/

 

The counter argument is that this move would leave the right guard spot open next to another struggling offensive lineman in second-year right tackle Spencer Brown. Brown was neck-and-neck with Saffold in pressures allowed in 2022 (Brown had 29) and gave up a whopping nine quarterback hits — most on the team by over double, despite only playing in 14 games. Putting a new face next to him in what will be a pivotal year might not be the best thing for his development.

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2023/2/2/23582156/buffalo-bills-2023-offseason-team-needs-guard-rodger-saffold-ryan-bates

 

The Bills need to go all out in rebuilding that O line...whatever it takes!

[colin]

not sure how feasible this is, but i'd like it if we could sign a solid LT (knowing it would cost some) so that we can kick dawkins to LG, or move him to RT, or what have you.

 

Dawkins, Morse, Hyde, Poy, Edmunds, Tre White, Oliver, Basham, AJE and once his contract is up Von will all be off the team in the next 2 seasons or so IMO.   We have option value on the DL on rook contracts, so maybe one or two will be kept, but these are guys we should either replace in the draft cheaply when the time comes, or via FA.  as far as FA goes, i think we do quite well in value signings (jones and initial py and hyde contracts being stellar) and out right star signings (von and diggs, altho we also traded for Diggs).  

 

I think we will be better getting our stars via trade or FA than hope and a prayer drafting.  obv happy to get some drafting, but i think we've hamstrung ourselves mostly on re-signings.  Hyde and Poy new contracts, White 2nd contract, Dawkins, and the combo of Milano/Knox/5th year options on liver and edmunds.  not saying those last 4 were bad individually, but the combo of them w our roster construction has put us in a goofy spot.

[hondo in seattle]

This is a depressing thread.  We haven't had a good OL since Josh has been here.  And it doesn't seem likely we'll have one in 2023.  Just not enough resources.  

[ALLEN1QB]

After all the cuts we do I kind of wonder how much Capital we will have to spend

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Just checking you mean "starting quality" as in "of the required standard to start"? Not as in "starting" and "quality". I know it should be obvious via the lack of punctuation but then this is TSW...

 

But yea, agreed. Feliciano's best games for the Bills came at center when Morse was out and no surprise to see him perform serviceably there for the GMen.

 

Yeah there aren't many good offensive lines in the NFL so starting quality still begins below "good".    

 

People are reluctant to admit it but the standard for a centers ability to block man-on-man is clearly lower than that of a guard.

 

I loved Creed Humphrey as a prospect.........he was All American quality as a freshman.......but the position is so easy to fill adequately that it's hard to justify using a premium pick on it.

 

With rare exception the quality of an offensive line is seen in the blocking talent of the LT and guards.    Even RT you can have a stiff like McGlinchey out there sometimes and still have one of the better lines in the league.

[Big Blitz]

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

[JMM]

ONE big FA signing, preferably guard, then two of the first three picks in draft for OL. This is the way...😌

[BrooklynBills]

Conservative Option:

-Sign T George Fant to compete with Spencer Brown. I would project this cap hit to be about 2 or 3 mil. This would give you a capable swing guy to spell Dawkins in case of injury as well. 

-Target a OT rounds 3-5 of the draft.  Examples: round 3 - Warren McClendon; round 4 - Nick Saldiveri

-Your OTs are Dawkins, Brown, Fant, Doyle, and your rookie developmental T

 

-Sign G Trai Turner, cap hit roughly 2-3 mil

-Draft a G in rounds 1-3 of the draft.  The Bills need to flat out just add some athletic talent here.  They don't really have any guys that can stand up physically to other teams interior lineman. Examples: round 2 - John Micheal Schmitz; round 2 - Cody Mauch

-Keep Morse at C

Dawkins-Bates-Morse-rookie/Turner-Fant/Brown | with a young mid round developmental lineman.

Other than rookie contracts, you've added roughly 4-6 mil in cap here.

 

Aggressive Option:

- Cut Morse (saving 5.36 mil on the cap-6mil dead money)

- Sign Ben Powers (10M AAV - year 1 cap hit 5m)

- Move Bates to C

- Draft OT in round 1 - Dawand Jones; competes with Brown (this dude is showing out so he might shoot up the draft board out of our range)

- Draft G/T in round 3 - Warren McClendon; starts at G, could play RT also

- Draft G/C in round 4 - Jarrett Patterson; backup at both G spots and played C for 3 years in college.

 

Dawkins-POWERS-Bates-McClendon-Jones

Other than rookie contracts, you are SAVING .36 mil on the cap here so you could probably still afford a quality backup G/T. And you are getting significantly younger and more athletic on the OL.

[LabattBlue]

54 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

Sign me up!!!

[RyanC883]

First, thank for the in-depth write up on the upcoming FAs.  I agree with going after Turner, although I don't know he walks into the role.  I'd like to get a C/G out of the 1st two rounds, my top pick currently being Patterson from ND.  If we get a WR in FA, I wouldn't mind hitting an OT in rd. 1 and guard/center in rd. 2.  My bolded below have that addition.  

 

LT- Dion Dawkins

LG- Ryan Bates

C- Mitch Morse

RG- Trai Turner (Patterson (ND)/Schmitz (MN)) 

RT - Mike McGlinchey (Steen (AL); Duncan (MD); Jones (OSU).)  

Edited February 2, 2023 by RyanC883

[BrooklynBills]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

 

He will be 24 in March.  Not a complete "NO" from me but just something to think about with this prospect.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

 

He is my #1 IOL. He could play guard as a rookie and slide over to center later. 

[Bill from NYC]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

And center might be Bates best position.

 

It's fairly common for guys who can't play tackle or guard a lick to be starting quality NFL centers.    See Jon Feliciano.

Have you or @GunnerBillBill seen Bradley Bozeman in the NFL? I liked him alot in college, and he is one of those "high character" guys. He has a charity, etc. 

 

PS: He ain't no Landon Dickerson who is a flat out beast imo.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Have you or @GunnerBillBill seen Bradley Bozeman in the NFL? I liked him alot in college, and he is one of those "high character" guys. He has a charity, etc. 

 

PS: He ain't no Landon Dickerson who is a flat out beast imo.

 

 

Yea - the book on him is he can run block. He struggles in pass pro. Had a nice enough year in Carolina though, having gone there originally as a backup.

 

As for Dickerson if there was no injury concern he'd have gone day 1 IMO. He went first few picks of the 2nd in the end I think but the knee ligaments definitely made some teams wary. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBills said:

 

 

Dawkins-POWERS-Bates-McClendon-Jones

Other than rookie contracts, you are SAVING .36 mil on the cap here so you could probably still afford a quality backup G/T. And you are getting significantly younger and more athletic on the OL.

 

Stop! I can only get so excited!