ROCKPILE REVIEW - Bengals and 2022 Wrap-Up

[EasternOHBillsFan]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Can't say I liked Glass Onion all that much, but the puzzle analogy to the movie is pretty good.  

 

Don't be so sure about your #2.  McDermott will watch film, and he won't like he sees.   Changes will come.   McDermott is NOT a my-way-or-the-highway guy.  

 

So the end is a Lombardi trophy in the middle of the box LOL

 

After what Beane said, I'm not sure this will happen, but I hope you are right!

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

And as I stated at the outset, I think it was more or less impossible to get them ready to play, under the circumstances of the previous 8 months, 2 months, and 3 weeks.  Coaches weren't ready to coach, players weren't ready to play.  

We definitely agree there. It’s the ‘virtually’ that’s the qualifier. This was a storybook opportunity. Unfortunately life isn’t always a storybook, and sometimes the circumstances get the best of people. They rarely make movies about the teams that don’t rise to the challenge. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

19 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Uh, okay.  Who said he's a victim?  And to suggest that he keeps Frazier around to have a scapegoat is truly ridiculous.  McDermott wants to win, so he knowingly keeps a DC around who can't win?   That's truly ridiculous, meaning worthy of ridicule. 

 

I don't think it is. Frazier is an extension of him, he runs the defense the way McD wants it to be run and to his vision. If McDermott had a problem with any of it, he could change it. 

 

He doesn't. He won't bring in someone that would challenge him to make changes. We've seen that already, we're still seeing it now. It's easier to keep Frazier and have most of the fanbase blame him instead as if McD doesn't have anything to do with the defense. You could literally read most of the messages on the board and most want to can Frazier and keep McDermott. It doesn't make any sense. 

 

If they think Frazier is such a big problem...whose fault is it that he's been here and is still here? It's McD's. Any way you slice it, McDermott is the problem. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by HomeskillitMoorman

[Augie]

18 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Shaw you really are a better man then me and with a keen eye.  

 

I said the exact same thing the 3rd play of the game and it was a TD if the OL gave Josh .25 seconds more.  

 

However & we've gone at it before, you always absolve McD.  Sorry this team with Josh would be +-1 win with any competent coach.  

The Bills this year were 13-3 on talent alone.  The three losses all could be pinned on coaching and I'll give you the Ravens game as one they did a good job coaching.  Heck they beat KC, so throw that one in too. 

 

This team had more then enough talent to breeze through the schedule they had.

 

So what is McD responsible for (since now we're told not the D either)?

 

Please don't say culture.

 

I hope this enflames the “Beane Sucks Crowd”. It would be fun to see the Beane Sucks Crowd” and the McD Sucks crowd in a cage match to see who sucks more. We could sell PPV for this Suck Fest!   😋

 

.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Augie

[Billsfan1972]

9 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I don't think it is. Frazier is an extension of him, he runs the defense the way McD wants it to be run and to his vision. If McDermott had a problem with any of it, he could change it. 

 

He doesn't. He won't bring in someone that would challenge him to make changes. We've seen that already, we're still seeing it now. It's easier to keep Frazier and have most of the fanbase blame him instead as if McD doesn't have anything to do with the defense. You could literally read most of the messages on the board and most want to can Frazier and keep McDermott. It doesn't make any sense. 

 

If they think Frazier is such a big problem...whose fault is it that he's been here and is still here? It's McD's. Any way you slice it, McDermott is the problem. 

They had three weeks to prepare for the Cincy, particularly the first quarter and what to expect from them.  They did nothing different from the January 2nd meeting.  Unacceptable.

 

And also as terrible what happened to Hamlin was, 3 weeks later the Bills should have been walking on "cloud nine" and 100% ready as it seemed the worst was behind them and they'd learned their lessons after the Miami game.  

[4th&long]

They were all in this year. Look at the cap situation. We are $17 million over with a lot of holes to fill. We are going to start losing some of our better players because of the cap. 
 

i am starting to lose interest. It was the first time I was ever glad a season was over. I am not ready to sit through another 17 game season and get kicked in the nuts again in the playoffs.

 

 If people are fine with 12 win or so regular season then I am sure they will be happy with this team and coaches. 
 

i am beyond being happy to just make the playoffs. After 45 years of flowing this team it’s time to win a Super Bowl. I don’t see it happening with this D scheme and coordinator and a Chuck And duck offense.

Edited February 3, 2023 by 4th&long

[The Firebaugh Kid]

Sustained success has been nice, it's great to watch every game expecting to win. 

I think the issue people see is clear....being outcoached and/or outplayed physically in a playoff game at home.

Its hard to stomach these epic collapses in the playoffs, this latest one being arguably worse than 13 seconds to me because we didn't even compete. 

The Bills were almost undefeated this season, and to get blown out at home, in the snow, in a playoff game...still pisses me off. Idk.

Very complicated and frustrating spot to be in. 

[Saxum]

On 2/1/2023 at 1:34 PM, Shaw66 said:

 

Under Sean McDermott, the Bills are enjoying great success.  There is no reason to complain about him or his abilities, not yet.  Ten, thirteen, eleven, and thirteen wins in the past four seasons, four and five in the playoffs.  Andy Reid won his first conference championship game in his sixth year and didn’t win another one until more than ten years later.  Zac Taylor has already lost a Super Bowl and a Conference Championship game.  Sean McVay is looking more lucky than good.  Kyle Shanahan doesn’t have a Lombardi.  

 

 

For those who want to dump the baby with the bath water this is the most important part - Bills have issues but are not broken. 

 

A better place for your torch is treating your hemorrhoids. 

[Saxum]

23 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I'm not.  I just don't know enough to comment much.  I said the coaches didn't respond well to what teams were doing to them.  

 

Given McDermott's success as aHC so far, I'll leave it to him to figure out what to do.  Like I said, it isn't easy to do what they're trying to do.  31 teams fail at it every year, and no one other Belichick has won a lot of Super Bowls. 

 

Like the front office has done the Bills coaching staff needs additional staff - not as position coaches but as senior assistants - that will be able to look at coaching / staffing plans and give serious criticism without being dismissed. 

 

Was on a job where management was doing a good job but upper management brought in high priced consultant to do evaluations - the evaluations were bitter and all the evaluator saw was bad so his recommendations were ignored and actively opposed especially the burn certain parts of company.  Then a retired member of company was brought it and many little things were pointed out but he also pointed out what they were doing well and what they needed to do more of.  These recommendations were embraced and changes were made which improved the company.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

We definitely agree there. It’s the ‘virtually’ that’s the qualifier. This was a storybook opportunity. Unfortunately life isn’t always a storybook, and sometimes the circumstances get the best of people. They rarely make movies about the teams that don’t rise to the challenge. 

Fair enough.  At the end of the day, the 2022 Bills just didn't have enough.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I don't think it is. Frazier is an extension of him, he runs the defense the way McD wants it to be run and to his vision. If McDermott had a problem with any of it, he could change it. 

 

He doesn't. He won't bring in someone that would challenge him to make changes. We've seen that already, we're still seeing it now. It's easier to keep Frazier and have most of the fanbase blame him instead as if McD doesn't have anything to do with the defense. You could literally read most of the messages on the board and most want to can Frazier and keep McDermott. It doesn't make any sense. 

 

If they think Frazier is such a big problem...whose fault is it that he's been here and is still here? It's McD's. Any way you slice it, McDermott is the problem. 

Well, this makes more sense.  I still disagree that McDermott keeps Frazier around as some kind of fall guy.  The desire to win is burning inside McDermott so hot that he is NOT going to anything less than what he thinks he needs to do to win.   Which leads, at least possibly, to your second point - that maybe McDermott doesn't perceive very well what's necessary to win.  That's certainly a possibility.  But he's a lifelong learner, and he's going to be studying, thinking, talking to people about how to get better.   If he learns that his defense is what's holding the team back, he'll change his defense.  

[SoCal Deek]

43 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Fair enough.  At the end of the day, the 2022 Bills just didn't have enough.

Shaw, I know from your posts and our past conversations that we’re about the same age and longevity as Bills fans. I put it to you that it’s not supposed to be this difficult to win the thing! For years we were told ‘Ralph is too cheap’; until he obviously wasn’t. Then we wondered in the wilderness for a couple of decades, being told ‘you’ve got to get a franchise QB’; until we obviously got one. So…here we are having finished Year Five with that franchise guy and with the Owner having spent all the money in the storehouse. The Josh Allen window will not stay open forever. Somebody has to fix things, now! If the structure of player contracts makes it impossible to change the roster, then you have to change the coaches, or at the very least a Coordinator or both. The Team’s out of options and at least this fan is completely exhausted from the laundry list of excuses. Again….it’s simply NOT supposed to be this hard to win the darn thing…it just isn’t. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by SoCal Deek

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, 4th&long said:

It was the first time I was ever glad a season was over.

It's interesting to me, but not surprising, that so many people are bashing me for giving the Bills a pass.  They're right, I am giving them a pass.  For me, too, it was the first time I was glad a season was over.  (Well, maybe when Rex resigned before the last game, I was glad that season ended, too.)

 

Why was I glad it was over?  Because this season just didn't feel right to me.   Things weren't falling into place.  Things got a little derailed when Luke Knox died.  It felt like the COVID season when a game was moved to Detroit.   I was distracted by the pain I felt, the suffering, when the blizzard hit.  And I was grieving after Damar collapsed.  By the end of November, the Bills looked good on the stat sheet but not on the field.  People were beginning to think Philly was real and beginning to recognize that you didn't want to play the 49ers and realizing that the Bengals were really tough and seeing that the Chiefs had it again, but I wasn't thinking the Bills were in that conversation.  

 

Now, it's easy to say that the end of November was exactly the time that the coaches were supposed to be fine tuning offense and defense, dialing up the intensity, all of that, and I agree.  But in light of the distractions that already had happened, and in light of the things that were coming, I think it simply got too difficult to keep everyone, from McDermott on down, focused and moving forward.   Sure, it's their job and all of that, but those are just words in a vacuum. 

 

Just take Dorsey as an example.   First time offensive coordinator, and you know that he was feeling the pressure to produce.  Maybe he wasn't up to it and never will be, but maybe he needed to go through it once to experience it.  Maybe McDermott should have done a better job with him, but McDermott has managed only Daboll as an OC, and he came to the job with a lot of experience.  And maybe, Dorsey was fine with Xs and Os but he didn't manage his assistants properly.   Maybe his players were too distracted and he simply couldn't get through to them.  Sure, it's his job and all of that, but as I said, those are just words in a vacuum.  It's a real job with real people and real problems, it isn't enough just to say "do your job."   Sometimes, too much gets in the way. 

 

Losing to the Bengals wasn't 13 seconds, not even close.  It was losing to a better team.  Why were they better?   They put it all together at the end of the season better than the Bills did.  Why did the Bengals lose to the Chiefs?  Because the Chiefs put it together better than the Bengals did.   The Bills aren't somehow simply entitled to be the best team, and those people who think the Bills had the best roster are dreaming.   In fact, I think it's to the credit of the coaches that they went 14-4 with that offensive line, not a stud among them.  It's a credit to the coaches that they went 14-4 without a true #1 corner and half of a good safety on the field.   

 

A loft of things have to come together to win it all.  Sometimes it just doesn't come together, and you get a pass. 

 

Should the HC, the OC, and/or the DC be replaced?   Maybe one, two, or all three.   I don't know.   But fan disappointment over not winning the Super Bowl or getting semi-steamrolled by the Bengals in the playoffs is not the reason.  

 

 

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Shaw, I know from your posts and our past conversations that we’re about the same age and longevity as Bills fans. I put it to you that it’s not supposed to be this difficult to win the thing! For years we were told ‘Ralph is too cheap’; until he obviously wasn’t. Then we wondered in the wilderness for a couple of decades, being told ‘you’ve got to get a franchise QB’; until we obviously got one. So…here we are having finished Year Five with that franchise guy and with the Owner having spent all the money in the storehouse. The Josh Allen window will not stay open forever. Somebody has to fix things, now! If the structure of player contracts makes it impossible to change the roster, then you have to change the coaches, or at the very least a Coordinator or both. The Team’s out of options and at least this fan is completely exhausted from the laundry list of excuses. Again….it’s simply NOT supposed to be this hard to win the darn thing…it just isn’t. 

Deek -

 

I think you seriously misperceive how hard it is to win the Lombardi.   Ask Marino - 17 seasons and not one.  Elway - 14 seasons before his first.  Peyton - seven seasons before his first, and was truly great.  Ask Brees.  Ask Rodgers.   It's really, really hard.  

 

We may tend to think it's easy because we watched Brady for so long, but that the truth is that you had a truly remarkable QB with the greatest coach of all time, and even they couldn't win it every year.  

 

It ain't easy, and in some years it just doesn't come together.   It came together in 2021 for the Bills, and they blew it in 13 seconds.  People want to complain about the coaching in that season, I'm all in on that conversation.   2022?   It wasn't the Bills' year.   Do things need to improve?  Sure, all kinds of things need to improve.  It  doesn't change the fact that in 2022, for a lot of reasons, a good Bills team didn't peak in December and January.  

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Deek -

 

I think you seriously misperceive how hard it is to win the Lombardi.   Ask Marino - 17 seasons and not one.  Elway - 14 seasons before his first.  Peyton - seven seasons before his first, and was truly great.  Ask Brees.  Ask Rodgers.   It's really, really hard.  

 

We may tend to think it's easy because we watched Brady for so long, but that the truth is that you had a truly remarkable QB with the greatest coach of all time, and even they couldn't win it every year.  

 

It ain't easy, and in some years it just doesn't come together.   It came together in 2021 for the Bills, and they blew it in 13 seconds.  People want to complain about the coaching in that season, I'm all in on that conversation.   2022?   It wasn't the Bills' year.   Do things need to improve?  Sure, all kinds of things need to improve.  It  doesn't change the fact that in 2022, for a lot of reasons, a good Bills team didn't peak in December and January.  

Is it easy? Of course not. But, it’s considerably easier when you have a franchise QB and an experienced coaching staff. Since we’re not changing the QB, it’s past time for ownership to ask the HC to change the coordinators. There was nothing that happened DURING this year’s playoffs that was a surprise. The team wasn’t properly prepared to play in either playoff game. There’s zero excuse for the coaching staff to be ‘exhausted’….zero. 

[Shaw66]

30 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Is it easy? Of course not. But, it’s considerably easier when you have a franchise QB and an experienced coaching staff. Since we’re not changing the QB, it’s past time for ownership to ask the HC to change the coordinators. There was nothing that happened DURING this year’s playoffs that was a surprise. The team wasn’t properly prepared to play in either playoff game. There’s zero excuse for the coaching staff to be ‘exhausted’….zero. 

We both understand we're just talking here.  It doesn't really matter.  But really.  Peyton Manning played about 10 seasons with various combinations of Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, and Marvin Harrison, Sr., and he won ONE Super Bowl.  In those years, Manning was getting sacked less than 20 times a season, throwing to one of the very best receiver combos of all time.   Ask Peyton if it's easy.  

 

And if you say he didn't have coaching, well, do you think there was any coach in the WORLD who didn't want to be the coach of that team?   It all makes the point I keep saying.   A lot of things have to come together.   You need the right GM, the right HC, the right coordinators, all of which means you need the right owner, and you need luck and no injuries to the important players and a lot of other things.   

 

It isn't easy.  

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

We both understand we're just talking here.  It doesn't really matter.  But really.  Peyton Manning played about 10 seasons with various combinations of Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, and Marvin Harrison, Sr., and he won ONE Super Bowl.  In those years, Manning was getting sacked less than 20 times a season, throwing to one of the very best receiver combos of all time.   Ask Peyton if it's easy.  

 

And if you say he didn't have coaching, well, do you think there was any coach in the WORLD who didn't want to be the coach of that team?   It all makes the point I keep saying.   A lot of things have to come together.   You need the right GM, the right HC, the right coordinators, all of which means you need the right owner, and you need luck and no injuries to the important players and a lot of other things.   

 

It isn't easy.  

We’ve already agreed it isn’t easy but I’m much, much less ready to stand Pat or stay the course. This organization needs to make a serious change going into next year. 

[Shaw66]

32 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

We’ve already agreed it isn’t easy but I’m much, much less ready to stand Pat or stay the course. This organization needs to make a serious change going into next year. 

Got it. 

 

Did you read Graham's piece in the Athletic?  There's a thread about it.   It's absolutely dead on, in my opinion.  If your choice is trying different leadership or trusting Beane and McDermott to figure it out, the smart money is on McBeane.  They showed up and immediately made the Bills a playoff team, and within three years made them a Super Bowl contender.  They must know something. 

[Haslett_Stomp]

McDermott realized Dennison wasn't working as OC after his first season and brought in Dabol, which makes his hesitancy to move on from Frazier puzzling.

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Got it. 

 

Did you read Graham's piece in the Athletic?  There's a thread about it.   It's absolutely dead on, in my opinion.  If your choice is trying different leadership or trusting Beane and McDermott to figure it out, the smart money is on McBeane.  They showed up and immediately made the Bills a playoff team, and within three years made them a Super Bowl contender.  They must know something. 

They know something for sure….just not enough.