Reassessing the Over-Reactions to the Divisional Round

[corta765]

1 minute ago, jahnyc said:

Peter King has some Bills related tidbits in his FMIA column today.  Doesn't back down from his assessment that time is slipping away for the Bills because they are not progressing, goes after Beane for his failure to draft quality WRs when there were some available for us in recent drafts, and quotes the thoughts Bills Parcells had about the Bills after the loss to Cinci.  Interesting.

He is where most fans are at this point. They can/should breakthrough as they have a good base built with an elite QB, but time has passed without any success so some fair questions are now being posed because something is not working. Doesn't mean it is over by any means, but four years of Josh in his true prime has led to 0-4.

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

So the real situation is that you’re nite OL/ team can’t win and needs to be replaced ? Or that you simply got outschemed and out executed by another coaching staff/ team ? If it’s the former that’s interesting because only one team wins their final game the last I checked. You don’t need a perfect team to win the Super Bowl. That’s reality. The real situation with the Bills shows that they won 13 regular season games and lost 3 by a combined 8 points. That’s not a hypothetical. It sounds like you think that if team A beats team B in week 5 they will automatically beat them again in week 12 , or even the next season. See where this is going ? 

 

D. Dawkins: 73.5

R. Saffold: 43.7

M. Morse: 61.4

R. Bates: 61.8

S. Brown: 51.4

 

We have one of the worst lines in football according to PFF grades this year (26th).  Anyone who's watched the games can see this play out and it's only because of Josh we can do anything.  Against great teams, Josh can't do it alone.

 

You seem to think you can get dominated at the LOS on both sides of the ball and somehow win the game.  Winning the battle in the trenches has been and remains one of the most fundamentally basic objectives in football since the game's inception.  We lost that battle and lost it badly against Cincy against an offensive line missing 3/5 starters and against a defensive line getting home rushing three.  You lose that game 10/10 times.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

I have said it again and again. The Bills defense works in the regular season cause of the few elite offenses they play. Their defense is predicated on having offenses needing 10-12 play drives to score and waiting for mistakes to happen.  It works against average offenses but doesn't work against elite offenses. 

Can’t disagree with this. A different mindset and some scheme flexibility appears to be required going forward. The defense hasn’t done very well in the postseason overall. 

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

 

D. Dawkins: 73.5

R. Saffold: 43.7

M. Morse: 61.4

R. Bates: 61.8

S. Brown: 51.4

 

We have one of the worst lines in football according to PFF grades this year (26th).  

 

You seem to think you can get dominated at the LOS on both sides of the ball and somehow win the game.  Winning the battle in the trenches has been and remains one of the most fundamentally basic objectives in football since the game's inception.  We lost that battle and lost it badly against Cincy against an offensive line missing 3/5 starters and against a defensive line getting home rushing three.  You lose that game 10/10 times.

Josh Allen covers up a lot of issues up front. The Bills scheme that day in that weather changed that dynamic. They need to improve up front, but they still could have won the game because Josh Allen is that good. Their plan was wrong for both the weather and the opponent. A better one could have gotten resulted in better execution up front and a W in the end. 

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, H2o said:

Build a top tier OL, get Josh 2 more legit weapons, and watch what happens. If the defense can just be in the top 10-12 at that point then we'll bring home a Lombardi. Protect Josh, get him some help, and it's a done deal. 

I agree. We dont need a top 10 defense to win it all but we do need a top 10 OL. 

[H2o]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree. We dont need a top 10 defense to win it all but we do need a top 10 OL. 

Top 10 at the least and a couple more receiving weapons so they can't just bracket Diggs leaving Josh with nothing. 

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Can’t disagree with this. A different mindset and some scheme flexibility appears to be required going forward. The defense hasn’t done very well in the postseason overall. 

Josh Allen covers up a lot of issues up front. The Bills scheme that day in that weather changed that dynamic. They need to improve up front, but they still could have won the game because Josh Allen is that good. Their plan was wrong for both the weather and the opponent. A better one could have gotten resulted in better execution up front and a W in the end. 

It' was abundently clear the defense couldn't stop their offense either in the air or on the ground, so I don't know where you getting we somehow get a W in that game.  

 

You're back to hypotheticals claiming had we simply done x, y, or z, we could win when it was clear as day we didn't have the weapons they do to keep up with them.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

That's the thing though...Hurts doesn't have to play like an elite QB in their offense.  He simply has to be efficient, not turn the ball over, and he'll always be a threat to run.  They ran for 150 yards and 4 TDs against a very good Niners D.  They didn't allow Hurts to have a great game through the air, but Philly didn't need him to.

 

More than anything Philly benefitted from playing a 4th string QB and then no QB most of the day.

[Billz4ever]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

More than anything Philly benefitted from playing a 4th string QB and then no QB most of the day.

They still had to score points and they put the ball in the endzone 4 times on the ground against one of the best defenses in football.  The point remains they don't need Hurts to be a Josh Allen to win.

 

We always need Josh Allen to be Josh Allen to win.

[Big Turk]

Just now, Billz4ever said:

They still had to score points and they put the ball in the endzone 4 times on the ground against one of the best defenses in football.  The point remains they don't need Hurts to be a Josh Allen to win.

 

We always need Josh Allen to be Josh Allen to win.

 

That was one of the points I made as to why Hurts isn't even in the same stratosphere in terms of Allen when discussing MVP candidates.

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

That was one of the points I made as to why Hurts isn't even in the same stratosphere in terms of Allen when discussing MVP candidates.

He's not.  He does what they need him to do to win. Some people see that as being MVP-worthy and he should be in the running.

 

I don't think the discussion about Allen vs Hurts even matters though because Mahomes is clearly the MVP, IMO.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Billz4ever

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

Not saying they were playing the same, and Miller obviously had a huge role in that game. A lot of issues were on coaching , however and to ignore that would be silly. The Bills still have Josh Allen. As great a game as Chris Jones had for KC Vs the Bengals still left the Bengals with possession at the 2 minute warning in a tie game. A dubious play call on 3rd and 3 ruined their chances combined with a dumb PF penalty on D afterwards. The QB is still THE most important thing and good coaching can find a way to win. A perfect game is rarely required to win, even in playoff games. 

If the Refs didn't bail Joe out after the pick with a DPI call... The Chefs were on their way to blowing the Bungles out  

 

 

 

Now... I don't mind them calling DPI... But do it right away. Don't wait for other results to come. They weren't gonna call it till they seen the pick and realized they had to keep Cincy in it! 

[Boatdrinks]

47 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

It' was abundently clear the defense couldn't stop their offense either in the air or on the ground, so I don't know where you getting we somehow get a W in that game.  

 

You're back to hypotheticals claiming had we simply done x, y, or z, we could win when it was clear as day we didn't have the weapons they do to keep up with them.

Couldn’t disagree more. The Chiefs won yesterday but lost to the same team in December. That they didn’t win the first time wasn’t indicative that they couldn’t win the second time. That’s just not how it works in football. You just have to be better that day and future wins vs the same opponent are not guaranteed. Particularly when the teams are fairly evenly matched and both have a good QB. Your approach is overly simplistic, so I’ll just agree to disagree . 

11 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

If the Refs didn't bail Joe out after the pick with a DPI call... The Chefs were on their way to blowing the Bungles out  

 

 

 

Now... I don't mind them calling DPI... But do it right away. Don't wait for other results to come. They weren't gonna call it till they seen the pick and realized they had to keep Cincy in it! 

Not sure which play you are referring to , but if it was the play where the KC defender was a full step early and went through the receiver that absolutely was a penalty every time. The officiating crew did leave a lot to be desired in both games . 

[Billz4ever]

17 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Couldn’t disagree more. The Chiefs won yesterday but lost to the same team in December. That they didn’t win the first time wasn’t indicative that they couldn’t win the second time. That’s just not how it works in football. You just have to be better that day and future wins vs the same opponent are not guaranteed. Particularly when the teams are fairly evenly matched and both have a good QB. Your approach is overly simplistic, so I’ll just agree to disagree . 

Again, I'm using what actually happened on the field that day.  We're not talking about different games; we're literally talking about the same game.  You're using hypotheticals to say things would be different in the very same game had that just done x, y, or z, when there's nothing we actually saw on either side of the ball that would support that.

 

We were thoroughly outcoached and thoroughly out-muscled on both sides of the ball. We couldn't stop their offense on the ground or through the air, our best receiver is ranting on the sidelines how he's not getting the ball because Josh couldn't get it to him because he's running for his life and throwing bad balls, and now I'm being told we could've somehow won the game had we simply done this thing differently.

 

That's simply not rational thinking.

 

I'm sure there's lot's of things they would've chosen to differently in lots of games, but they don't get the benefit of hindsight and they don't get a do-over.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

Again, I'm using what actually happened on the field that day.  We're not talking about different games; we're literally talking about the same game.  You're using hypotheticals to say things would be different in the very same game had that just done x, y, or z, when there's nothing we actually saw on either side of the ball that would support that.

 

We were thoroughly outcoached and thoroughly out-muscled on both sides of the ball. We couldn't stop their offense on the ground or through the air, our best receiver is ranting on the sidelines how he's not getting the ball because Josh couldn't get it to him because he's running for his life and throwing bad balls, and now I'm being told we could've somehow won the game had we simply done this thing differently.

 

That's simply not rational thinking.

In your football world , why have coaches ? Just have the players Duke it out. In reality , coaches schemes and gameplans matter. Otherwise the results of games would simply repeat themselves over and over. We know that doesn’t happen. There’s nothing left to discuss here. Believe what you will. Perhaps the Bills will return in 2023 with Josh Allen and an entirely new roster. One that may be capable of defeating the mighty Bengals, who are dusting off their golf clubs just as the Bills are. 

[Billz4ever]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

In your football world , why have coaches ? Just have the players Duke it out. In reality , coaches schemes and gameplans matter. Otherwise the results of games would simply repeat themselves over and over. We know that doesn’t happen. There’s nothing left to discuss here. Believe what you will. Perhaps the Bills will return in 2023 with Josh Allen and an entirely new roster. One that may be capable of defeating the mighty Bengals, who are dusting off their golf clubs just as the Bills are. 

You're speaking as a person who has the benefit of hindsight, which they don't have.

 

They went into that game with the game plan they had and got their butts whipped on both sides of the ball.  If you can't get any pressure against an O-line missing 3/5 starters, that's more than coaching.  

 

If your own O-line can't protect their QB against a 3-man rush, that's more than coaching and their PFF grade reflects that.

 

When you have a player who was made to look absolutely foolish on the offensive line coming out and saying they were out of gas, which is essentially an admission they(or at least he) quit 2 games from the SB, I'm not just blaming the coaches.  They all bear responsibility, and any quitters need to go find another job where they're allowed to just collect a paycheck without any responsibility or accountability. Say what you want about Diggs, but we need more players with that kind of intensity, who aren't cool with losing, and who would never shamelessly admit they quit.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

4 hours ago, boyst said:

Marv with Kelly. Shula with Marino, a few coaches with Elway, Manning, Bledsoe, and more. 

 

Yeah there is a few others. Not sure if any coach that had either Elway or Manning lasted 5 years as likely ownership felt if you can't win a SB with him at QB, we're getting rid of you.

 

Well actually wrong, just looked it up, Dan reeves lasted close to 10 years with Elway.  After that even Shanahan won early with Elway, but then too lasted 10 more years with no SB appearances.  Tomlin is another one who won early with Big Ben and nothing since.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[Never NEVER Give-up]

8 hours ago, BillsFanSD said:

2022: In the top tier.

 

2023: Hard to say without seeing how FA goes, but I'm inclined to guess that the Bills are just outside the top tier.  (Playoff team but not championship contender).  

Have you seen the Free Agents the Chiefs & Bengals need to work through - EVERY Team has to do this, not just the Bills.  I think we're still in the conversation in 2023 regardless. 

 

I also heard today how Mahomes was over 80% of their offense last night - as if that's a bad thing!  That's the same old argument we hear about Josh!  If you have one of these stud QB's, you'll only go as far as they can take you.

[UKBillFan]

7 hours ago, ChasBB said:

The Bills are on the outside looking in, imo.  Getting defeated is one thing, but not showing up and then GIVING UP after an early 14-point deficit is unacceptable.  Now, we cannot trust the team to at even COMPETE in these big games, let alone win one, and THAT is a big problem.  Unless there is some sort of significant shake-up in coaching I don't see Bills even winning the division next season.  Sorry, just how I see it.  I hope I'm wrong.

 

We can't trust the team to compete in any game under McDermott. Every single year there's been a horrific performance from every side of the ball at least once a season. Working back we've had the Bengals, Colts and Titans roll the Bills over and, from 2019 backwards, those performances become slightly more common.

[Chaos]

9 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Don't forget he also installed/instilled "the process" 

Has the process completed? After two years of regressing, will we be reprocessed? 

[Never NEVER Give-up]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:44 AM, ChasBB said:

The Bills are on the outside looking in, imo.  Getting defeated is one thing, but not showing up and then GIVING UP after an early 14-point deficit is unacceptable.  Now, we cannot trust the team to at even COMPETE in these big games, let alone win one, and THAT is a big problem.  Unless there is some sort of significant shake-up in coaching I don't see Bills even winning the division next season.  Sorry, just how I see it.  I hope I'm wrong.

You are!  Thankfully!