Im convinced its coaching (Chiefs showing how to handle Bengals)

[Dan]

9 minutes ago, Sargent Hulka said:

Fortune favors the bold: get rid of both coordinators. If McDermott doesn't have the intestinal fortitude required to do it, he goes too. We are heading toward season 6 with a generational talent at QB, and have hit a brick wall because of coaching ineptitude; piss poor game management, inferior game planning. 

Reluctantly, I’m falling into this camp.  
 

Frazier just has to go.  We need fresh air for the defense.  Since McD got here and hired Frazier, they’ve been t

running the same defense.  Trying to perfect it and each year drafting or acquiring heavily on the defensive side of the ball.  In the end... we have great season-long stats that are used to justify how good they are.  But we get to the playoffs and the result is the same.  The season’s stats are thrown out the window and we’re in a dog fight hoping Josh can be a super hero. 
 

I don’t think we need to completely revamp the defense (cause that would mean all new players). But someone has to be out there that is better at game plans and in-game situations that can generate pressure like sooooo many other teams routinely do. 
 

Offensively, I hate the notion of giving up on Dorsey after 1 season.  But, it was pretty obvious his offense got figured out back in October.  And he was unwilling or unable to adapt.  Every game essentially came down to Josh being superior when the play broke down and he ad libbed throws and runs.  There was very little scheming guys open or effective play calling.  
 

They need to sit down with Dorsey, at least, and determine what his plan is for overcoming the stale, predictable offense he was running.  Not only on week 1, but how will he adapt throughout the season?    Maybe they just need someone with experience to teach him?   
 

I think McD can do all this.. and he has to. The one thing they simply cannot do is just assume we had a a few bad breaks this year, and with a new safety or DT, we’ll finally have the missing player to put it all together.   The Bills current roster is good enough.  But that Bengals game was an inexcusable beat down in every aspect.  
 

At this point, I’m not confident they make the bold changes they need to.   So we’ll all cheer a 12-13 win team again in 2023. But then what happens after a January loss in the playoffs? How many years is this acceptable? Its been 4 now.   
 

The Bills are no longer that team hoping to make the playoffs.  They took the necessary steps to become a perennial playoff team.  It worked.  Now is the hard part... what do you do to become a perennial Super Bowl team?   Some figure it out.. many others do not.  

[PatsFanNH]

22 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I wrote this thread and headline during the first or second quarter of the game.  I also didnt put that part in my thread title.  I assume a mod changed it.  Seems to me it fits. They did handle the Bengals and they did it while losing players along the way.  

 

The flag was absolutely the right call.  It was an obvious out of bounds hit.  You dont let players get away with stuff like that just because it might be game deciding.

In real time that was very close it looks bad in slow motion but no one runs in slow motion. He pushed him and Mahomes didn’t even fall. IMO that was an awful call at that point of the game. 
 

Both teams lost players along the way simple fact is it was 20-20 with less than :30 seconds left so the Chiefs didn’t handle the Bengals. The truth is they both played a good game unlike the Bills last week who just picked the worst time have a completely bad game. 

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Didn't McD call a timeout prior to setting up that wonderful D?

 

Remember he is a defensive genius.

 

He called a timeout for both plays.  There is zero excuse for those 13 seconds which really should have been more like 8 seconds if they did the correct kickoff.

[NewEra]

41 minutes ago, Logic said:

Fair enough.

I was just busting balls.

In response to your post: Yeah, it irks me.

The Dolphins, later in the season, seemed to be "figured out", and were not producing much on offense. Then they came to Buffalo, and suddenly they were dynamic again. Yes, the Bills won that game, but still. The games immediately before and after the Bills game, the Dolphins were limp on offense. Against us? Gangbusters.

The Bengals were very effectively limited on offense by the Ravens in the playoffs. Then they played the Bills -- and with a seriously depleted o-line, no less -- and looked completely unstoppable. Then they faced the Chiefs and, sure enough, multiple sacks, only 20 points produced.

Why do teams look stoppable on offense immediately before and after playing the Bills? Why don't the Bills copy what works against these teams on defense, as shown by other teams who played them previously? Why are the Bills so stubborn defensively? Why doesn't a team coached by two undeniably high quality defensive minds in Leslie Frazier an Sean McDermott have more creativity and adaptability on defense? Why do they look great in the regular season and then below average against good offenses in the postseason? If the Bills are going to give up 30+ against the Bengals and Chiefs in the playoffs every year, why bother continuing to have a defensive specialist as a head coach? Why not just find the next young offensive genius and lean into offense?

It's all very infuriating and puzzling, and it's a very valid line of inquiry. I don't have any answers. I'm just venting.

No one knows for sure, but I’d venture to say that this defensive scheme needs at least 9/11th of the opening day starters to be healthy in order to have success vs the better offenses. 
 

we played very well vs the chiefs mid season 2 years in a row.  
 

just a perfect example of Frazier coaching scared.  This is one of the most ridiculous play calls ever. 3rd and 4-  here you go, take the first down for free.  

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

So you typed out that whole thread title...

but when it came to the word "for", those two extra keystrokes were too much, eh?
 

 

I'm honestly not sure what you mean.  My whole thread title was "I'm convinced it's coaching."  Where are you talking about "for?"

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, msw2112 said:

I wonder of player development is an issue with the Bills' staff.  I realize it's a different sport, but look at the Sabres.  Young guys like Rasmus Dahlin, Tage Thompson and others were lost under coaches like Phil Housely and Ralph Kreguer.  Even veterans like Jeff Skinner and Kyle Oposo were playing themselves out of the league under previous coaches, yet all of them are flourishing under Don Granato.  Could players like Oliver, Epensea, Basham, Elam, etc. improve and flourish with better coaching?  Or maybe they are developing fine, but the scheme the team is employing fails to take advantage of their talents?  A few former Bills have succeeded in other places, such as Wyatt Teller with the Browns, Isiah Hodgins with the Giants, Ray Ray McCloud with the 49ers, etc.  I even see a guy like Taylor Vallejo starting for the Cardinals, but he couldn't make the Bills roster as a backup.

 

In making this point, I realize that the Bills are a 13-3 team and perennial playoff team, while the Sabres have not made the playoffs in more than a decade.  There's a recency bias, as the Bills just lost a playoff game, but have had a lot of success over the last few years, and the Sabres are red hot right now.  But if you watch other teams in the playoffs and how they perform, and how lesser teams have given the Bills very tight games this season (Miami, Jets, Detroit, etc.), you have to wonder if the Bills are maximizing what they have.

 

This is an arguement I have been making most of the year.  Either Beane really is terrible at drafting or this coaching staff cant develop players.  Could be a little of both. We have players like Hughes not do crap for years here all of a sudden get a bunch of sacks for the worst team in the NFL.  We have players like Teller not play well here, get traded and become all pro.  We have other rookies make a few flashes but are otherwise mediocre.  Maybe some of them come on when their rookie contracts are almost up.  

 

We cant even get some rookies on the field unless its needed because of injuries.  We have other rookies that our offense doesnt even know how to use or know what to do with. Knox is probably our second best weapon on the field and they rarely use him in the passing game.  I could talk about this stuff all day but I just dont think our staff develops players all that well.  They are of the mindset of not putting rookies on the field unless they have to.  Rookies need to get experience during the season on the field.

[Billz4ever]

18 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No one knows for sure, but I’d venture to say that this defensive scheme needs at least 9/11th of the opening day starters to be healthy in order to have success vs the better offenses. 
 

we played very well vs the chiefs mid season 2 years in a row.  
 

just a perfect example of Frazier coaching scared.  This is one of the most ridiculous play calls ever. 3rd and 4-  here you go, take the first down for free.  

I get pissed off every time I see that. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

You guys can do whatever you want with this information. But, a friend of mine went to school with a certain Bills DL at PSU.

He said the whole week leading up to the game the guys thought game plan was bad, wouldn't work and would lead to defeat.

He also was in a booth and met JA17 dad after he'd a few after the game and he felt like Dorsey is clueless and can't stand him. Again, do whatever you want this, but if true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, there is a big disconnect.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No one knows for sure, but I’d venture to say that this defensive scheme needs at least 9/11th of the opening day starters to be healthy in order to have success vs the better offenses. 
 

we played very well vs the chiefs mid season 2 years in a row.  
 

just a perfect example of Frazier coaching scared.  This is one of the most ridiculous play calls ever. 3rd and 4-  here you go, take the first down for free.  

It was just a bad play call. Zero coverage to get Burrow to throw short of the sticks. Actually worked perfectly. Burrow throws a 2 yard pass well short of the first. The reason it’s a bad play call is because you’re asking Tre White to make a tackle vs Chase. Even worse with bad footing.

 

It actually wasn’t coaching scared. It was just a dumb play call. 

[LABILLBACKER]

Frazier is a dinosaur.  He should've been replaced after the Houston game when he laid off all the wrs by 7-9 yards.  He's absolutely terrified to call man press. McDermott selected him so this ridiculous tampa 2 zone philosophy is as much Sean's fault as anything. I don't want a HC that wins the "Christian" Lombardi every year.  Process, culture and character is great for choir boys.  I'm targeting the "Vince" version by maybe selecting a few less choir boys. 

    As far as offense goes, 99% of our fans are smart enough to see the biggest problem.  No support system for Josh outside of Diggs. Waiting nearly 6 years to flip the OL. Waiting 3 years to find a true WR2.  Waiting 5 years to find a dynamic RB and commitment to more rushes.  Waiting 6 years for a decent TE2.  Dorsey is probably not the solution but I'm reluctantly willing to give him 1 more year.  Call motion, call screens, call misdirection,  have hot reads ready when Josh gets pressure.  Do all of this along with forcing Josh to acknowledge the benefits of checkdowns and maybe... just maybe we'll have a chance a Vince.

Edited January 30, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[Billever76]

17 hours ago, PaulieYayo said:

But hey….let’s bring back Frazier! 🙄 I swear this franchise will just never get it. 

McDermott will run the exact same soft zone defense also

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It was just a bad play call. Zero coverage to get Burrow to throw short of the sticks. Actually worked perfectly. Burrow throws a 2 yard pass well short of the first. The reason it’s a bad play call is because you’re asking Tre White to make a tackle vs Chase. Even worse with bad footing.

 

It actually wasn’t coaching scared. It was just a dumb play call. 

You don't call a cover 0 and have your cbs 10 yards off the ball on 3rd and 4 lol

[Sargent Hulka]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

Seeing as you're Sgt. Hulka, and threw a nice quote out there, I thought I'd add this on the same point:

 

"It is even better to act quickly and err than to hesitate until the time for action has passed."

 

-Carl von Clausewitz

 

 

Thank you! I would emphatically add, "l'audace l'audace toujours l'audace"...Frederick the Great

[Logic]

28 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I'm honestly not sure what you mean.  My whole thread title was "I'm convinced it's coaching."  Where are you talking about "for?"

This was in response to the title of a different thread, which got merged into your existing thread.

[starrymessenger]

I dont attribute the late season/playoff drop off to scheme or to players having a bad day (though there was clearly enuf of that). Fully healthy this D can and has played well even if some prefer a more physical style. What I question is defensive playcalls and the apparent inability of the players to tackle (a basic requirement). All of that relates to coaching imo. 

On O it doesn’t look to me that Dorsey has what it takes to turn things around. 

And while it’s appropriate to scrutinize the coordinators, I suspect that McD’s suffocating control of this team’s operations, including drafting, are ultimately the main reason for the shortcomings. And I dont see things getting much better, though I hope I’m mistaken. I just cannot imagine the Bills fielding an imaginative offence under a young and aggressive OC all under McD, who might fear and resent having someone like that on staff. 

I think sooner or later Pegs is going to have to channel his inner Jerry, pull on his big boy pants and clean house. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by starrymessenger

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

It 100% is, always has been in the last 3 playoff losses where our "top 5 defense" has given up 107 points and 1403 yards in those 3 consecutive losses in the playoffs.  

 

How the hell Frazier is keeping his job right now is utterly MIND BLOWING.  It is absolutely clear that its a failed scheme against top ranked offenses in the playoffs.  If we run the same D next year, nothing is going to change.  

 

And same goes for Dorsey...he is as much a problem as Frazier.  FIRE THEM NOW.  

 

 

100% agreed regarding Frazier. Speaking for myself, I'm one of those that wanted him gone after the 13 seconds embarrassment and now when looking at yet another poor defensive playoff performance I just don't see a justified scenario in him staying at this point. 

 

As for Dorsey, it's some posters saying "it's his 1st year at OC and feel he should improve in 2nd year", I'm not in that particular crowd myself. The stats people can throw those numbers around all they want, but there's a bit more to the picture. I didn't see very much from Dorsey (particular back half of the season) that gave me any confidence that it will be better next year.

 

In any event, at the very least Frazier should be done imo

[Buffalo_Stampede]

14 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

McDermott will run the exact same soft zone defense also

You don't call a cover 0 and have your cbs 10 yards off the ball on 3rd and 4 lol

It was a dumb play call. 

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

And what's the chances he plays and doesn't get hurt? 

No clue.. Anyone on that field could get hurt at any given time. 

[KOKBILLS]

27 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I get pissed off every time I see that. 

 

You should have heard me screaming at the TV when I saw it live...

[Billz4ever]

Just now, KOKBILLS said:

 

You should have heard me screaming at the TV when I saw it live...

I came extremely close to turning the TV off on that play.

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Frazier is a dinosaur.  He should've been replaced after the Houston game when he laid off all the wrs by 7-9 yards.  He's absolutely terrified to call man press. McDermott selected him so this ridiculous tampa 2 zone philosophy is as much Sean's fault as anything. I don't want a HC that wins the "Christian" Lombardi every year.  Process, culture and character is great for choir boys.  I'm targeting the "Vince" version by maybe selecting a few less choir boys. 

    As far as offense goes, 99% of our fans are smart enough to see the biggest problem.  No support system for Josh outside of Diggs. Waiting nearly 6 years to flip the OL. Waiting 3 years to find a true WR2.  Waiting 5 years to find a dynamic RB and commitment to more rushes.  Waiting 6 years for a decent TE2.  Dorsey is probably not the solution but I'm reluctantly willing to give him 1 more year.  Call motion, call screens, call misdirection,  have hot reads ready when Josh gets pressure.  Do all of this along with forcing Josh to acknowledge the benefits of checkdowns and maybe... just maybe we'll have a chance a Vince.

McD has not cared since day one about the O.  They got lucky with Allen as they had to draft a QB and got the right one.  He was starting Peterman in Allen's rookie season.  He went 48 games without a 300 yard passing game (every team accomplishes it every year and he went his first three years unable to crack that barrier).  Think about that.  Yes 300 is just a #, but accepted as a standard and McD went 3 years without one.

 

The last three years he's lived off his QB 2019 it was 50/50).   

Edited January 30, 2023 by Billsfan1972