Is the Bills need for 8 D-linemen each game costing the team in other areas?

[Mark Vader]

I think having 3-4 Special Teams Aces, not counting Kicker, Punter & Long Snapper, is costing this team in other areas.

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

"Decent."

 

I'm not interested in decent.

 Send Their As's home

 

[LABILLBACKER]

7 hours ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Carry that many linemen, no. But drafting 2nd rounders and spending valuable cap/FA money on it, yes.

 

I also consistently noticed drop offs in the D with certain guys on the field. I think they need to limit the rotations and get the top 4 linemen on the field as much as possible. They're professional athletes, they can play all game and still be effective.

Exactly,  they've clearly identified Groot, Von, Jones and Ed as their top line. But playing the scrub 2nd line 40% of the time just kills this team.

[Niagara Dude]

9 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

A big staple of the McDermott/Frazier defense is rotating the front four of the defense throughout the game. IMO, this philosophy has hurt the team, especially on offense given the amount of assets the Bills used just on the front four alone, let alone the defense as a whole. 
 

Since McDermott became the HC, the Bills had 7 first round picks, by which 5 were used on defense. 2 first round picks were used on the D-line [Oliver, Rousseau] and 2 second round picks [Basham, Epeneza]. Not to mention a huge FA signing in Von Miller. Basham and Epeneza have underperformed to date and weren’t worth the second round picks. In order for Oliver to be effective, he needs a good DT next to him and someone else to take on double teams, otherwise, he’s been ineffective (especially once Miller was lost for the season). Rousseau is good, but has been inconsistent.
 

Besides Diggs, the Bills have been using lower round picks for WR’s, but use 2nd and 3rd round picks on RB’s, which makes no sense!

 

(Didn’t mention Zay Jones as I’m not quite sure if he was a McDermott pick or if it was a Whaley pick, since that was Whaley’s last draft with the Bills). 
 

IMO, all these assets used on having eight D-linemen for each game is huge a waste. It’s an outdated approach and because of it, the Bills have not invested properly on offense as they need a couple good O-linemen along with at least two more WR’s to compliment Diggs. The approach of getting cheap FA contracts and low round picks on offense is not getting the job done.

No question about it and that is all on Sean,  he still believes you win because of defence and refuses to move on from Frazier. Look at the sacks and pressure the Chiefs had on Burrows today.   Frazier should have been fired after last season and still has a job because of Sean

[Mc1320]

You are not going to routinely sub-out at LB or in the secondary so if not D-line, where would you use those roster spots. 
 

in a passing league it is the right philosophy, but can’t whiff on Epanesa/Basham in the draft, need more consistent play from Oliver and have to hit on back-ups like Settle who just got abused during the Cincy game

[hondo in seattle]

11 hours ago, djp14150 said:

 

youare mixing things around here.

 

buffalo is a 4-3 team. In a design of a roster you have 8 DL on the roster   You want fresh guys out there so you rotate players. If you are not gassing your players are going to be gassed by the 4th. The DL runs much more than thr OL because they are chasing players on offense

 

as for drafting—- it’s much much harder to get a (1) good pass rushing DE , (2) a very good OT, (3) a QB , (4) am impact LB, and (5) a top CB, after the 1st round.   You can find some players sfter the 1st but they have flaws/ weaknesses that you might be able to work on.

 

you can get decent WRs, TEs, RBs in the 3rd-6th rounds.  Look over draft history of receivers/ RBs being drafted between 1st vs those 3rd or later.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to quibble a bit...  Buffalo is a 4-2 team, not a 4-3 team.  We rarely trot out 3 LBs.  

 

But this detail doesn't change the argument.  It's still 4 down linemen.  

 

 

[Billever76]

11 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

A big staple of the McDermott/Frazier defense is rotating the front four of the defense throughout the game. IMO, this philosophy has hurt the team, especially on offense given the amount of assets the Bills used just on the front four alone, let alone the defense as a whole. 
 

Since McDermott became the HC, the Bills had 7 first round picks, by which 5 were used on defense. 2 first round picks were used on the D-line [Oliver, Rousseau] and 2 second round picks [Basham, Epeneza]. Not to mention a huge FA signing in Von Miller. Basham and Epeneza have underperformed to date and weren’t worth the second round picks. In order for Oliver to be effective, he needs a good DT next to him and someone else to take on double teams, otherwise, he’s been ineffective (especially once Miller was lost for the season). Rousseau is good, but has been inconsistent.
 

Besides Diggs, the Bills have been using lower round picks for WR’s, but use 2nd and 3rd round picks on RB’s, which makes no sense!

 

(Didn’t mention Zay Jones as I’m not quite sure if he was a McDermott pick or if it was a Whaley pick, since that was Whaley’s last draft with the Bills). 
 

IMO, all these assets used on having eight D-linemen for each game is huge a waste. It’s an outdated approach and because of it, the Bills have not invested properly on offense as they need a couple good O-linemen along with at least two more WR’s to compliment Diggs. The approach of getting cheap FA contracts and low round picks on offense is not getting the job done.

You are 100% spot on....our coaches have built up the wrong side of the ball first

[NastyNateSoldiers]

16 hours ago, Buddo said:

I'm not sure that the 8 d-linemen strategy is that wrong tbh. The idea being to keep them fresh enough to keep getting after it.

 

It also might be partly necessary, due to the ability, at times, for the Offense to score very quickly.

 

The problem with it, is more that some of the personnel, simply aren't performing well enough.

 

Epenesa and Basham, aren't living up to their draft positions atm, and while they aren't out of time yet, that clock is ticking very loudly.

 

The only guys who are performing well enough, from what I can see, are Miller, Rousseau, Jones, Oliver, and Lawson.

 

Note I said 'well enough' and not 'well'.

 

The first 4 are going to be our erstwhile starters, or best group, but after that, the rest aren't up to snuff.

 

Ideally you would want those top 4 names, on the field at all times, but that isn't going to happen.

 

Becase the other 3 main guys, Settle, Epeneas and Basham, aren't doing well enough, it messes with being able to put your main 4 out there, as much as you would like, as you have to mix and match some.

The strategy is not the problem the problem is the assets that are put into the strategy. I’m not a big fan of this strategy because it shows the type of personality McD and Frazier have there conservative by nature . But to put in all this money and picks into something and it not work in borderline devastating to this teams overall development . Essentially there throwing more money and picks into bkups on defense then they do for the offense and that’s outrageous. 
 

Starting next season when Allen and Diggs contracts kick in we will really feel the poor management for this team as a whole. They just don’t use high asset’s on bkup dline they use them on other positions on defense as well. Bernard is a classic example a 3rd rd Pk for Milano bkup. Milano just signed a 4yr deal why are they drafting his bkup in the 3rd when there’s still good players left on the board like Dylan Parham who ended up starting for Raiders this yr and was really good for them. The Boogie Pk was also overkill as Creed Humphrey was sitting a plate for the Bills . These are massive mistakes because not only are we passing on talent that can help us into the future we’re also letting our rivals reap the benefits of our poor decisions . The Chiefs drafted Creed the next Pk after we took Basham they must’ve been doing cartwheels and dancing in there draft room because we let them just have a top rated center in the draft. Beane and McD are running this team into the ground and are wasting the golden yrs of Josh Allen’s career which btw because of his playing style won’t reach more then 10yrs. Cam Newton lasted 8yrs before he fell off the cliff his body couldn’t take the punishment anymore I’m afraid Josh is heading in the same direction.

[BillMafia716ix]

I’m a fan of rotating the lineman when we have the personnel to do so. Problem is we don’t. AJ Epenesa and Boogie Basham haven’t performed consistently enough to warrant us rotating lineman in and out

[Xwnyer]

I think the starters of keeping special teams players like Kumerow of Hodgins is more of an issu. 

[SUNTANBILLS FAN]

17 hours ago, CoudyBills said:

 Not at all.  The Bills using those 8 defensive linemen resulted in lots of sacks, tons of pressures, and a great run defense.  Oh wait, it was ***** instead?  Yep, it harmed the team in other areas.  Well maybe not, it's not like they had anybody else who could play.

Welll I hope I don't get another ban but I've been saying all along the d line rotation sucks, soft zone on 3 and forever sucks. And we'll Fraizer is a nice guy but his schemes suck

[VaMilBill]

I do wonder if it’s the scheme that isn’t allowing our d line to get pressure/ sacks. It feels like we play very straight up all the time. Rarely do we see stunts or moving players around the line like we saw with chris Jones last night. Albeit, we don’t have a chris Jones. 
 

but I would be willing to bet that the first priority is to play sound defense and defend a gap. After that you can rush the passer. This doesn’t allow for as many sacks. Maybe it’s another Frazier defensive concept that is stunting the production of our d line. 
 

or maybe they just very average players. Rousseau included. 

[colin]

3 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

I do wonder if it’s the scheme that isn’t allowing our d line to get pressure/ sacks. It feels like we play very straight up all the time. Rarely do we see stunts or moving players around the line like we saw with chris Jones last night. Albeit, we don’t have a chris Jones. 
 

but I would be willing to bet that the first priority is to play sound defense and defend a gap. After that you can rush the passer. This doesn’t allow for as many sacks. Maybe it’s another Frazier defensive concept that is stunting the production of our d line. 
 

or maybe they just very average players. Rousseau included. 

 

 

i think we can get pressure if we have a monster or two up front, like w did w von and like mcd did in carolina w greg hardy.

 

my biggest issue is we have incongruent coverages along w our front 6 strategy way too often, and good qbs figure it out quickly.  we seem to be unable to add in the right amount of wrinkles.  it's either vanilla, or too many checks so we get guys running scott free like vs cinci.

 

the real issue w platooning the DL for this team is that we end up w street FA guys and practice squad players coming in and performing about as well as our 2nd and 1st round picks because how much of a statement can you make in 21 snaps?

 

meanwhile, we have just the lowest level of trash on our OL, fat bodies giving up and saying they are tired, while a quarter of a billion dollars qb runs around and tries to find the one single nfl wr we have signed.

 

the bad news is where we are new, the good news is a couple lucky big men draft picks and some wise investing and we fix most of our talent issues, we just gotta hope the coaching side gets corrected.

[BillsVet]

It's a good question...that's been asked for more than a year, but now receives scrutiny because it has not worked in crucial moments.  

 

You can spend on on a DL, but there's got to be give somewhere else.  For 2023 (and it's early), Buffalo is 8th in defensive spending, but only one of the teams ahead have a major QB contract (GB) and they're not a model of efficiency. 

 

The time to assess scheme value and positional priorities was last off-season before Josh's extension hit their books.  But they didn't and signed 4 UFA DL (not including Von) within the first week of UFA last March.  Ironically, it was the last one of that group, D. Jones, who was their best. 

 

What is clear is that overall spending on defense, draft and UFA dollars, is impeding their offense more than many here could see until the Cincinnati game.  Each of the final 4 teams had several top-end offensive skill players, but Buffalo did not.  

 

Good to see the conversation around DL and defense in general, but it's a day late and a dollar short.  Now McBeane have themselves in a hole they created looking up at another AFC team built more solidly in less time than theirs. 

 

 

 

 

[djp14150]

10 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I'm going to quibble a bit...  Buffalo is a 4-2 team, not a 4-3 team.  We rarely trot out 3 LBs.  

 

But this detail doesn't change the argument.  It's still 4 down linemen.  

 

 

i know… they have less LBs on the roster and shift a spot to DBs.

[Beck Water]

21 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

A big staple of the McDermott/Frazier defense is rotating the front four of the defense throughout the game. IMO, this philosophy has hurt the team, especially on offense given the amount of assets the Bills used just on the front four alone, let alone the defense as a whole. 
 

Since McDermott became the HC, the Bills had 7 first round picks, by which 5 were used on defense. 2 first round picks were used on the D-line [Oliver, Rousseau] and 2 second round picks [Basham, Epeneza]. Not to mention a huge FA signing in Von Miller. Basham and Epeneza have underperformed to date and weren’t worth the second round picks. In order for Oliver to be effective, he needs a good DT next to him and someone else to take on double teams, otherwise, he’s been ineffective (especially once Miller was lost for the season). Rousseau is good, but has been inconsistent.
 

Besides Diggs, the Bills have been using lower round picks for WR’s, but use 2nd and 3rd round picks on RB’s, which makes no sense!

 

(Didn’t mention Zay Jones as I’m not quite sure if he was a McDermott pick or if it was a Whaley pick, since that was Whaley’s last draft with the Bills). 
 

IMO, all these assets used on having eight D-linemen for each game is huge a waste. It’s an outdated approach and because of it, the Bills have not invested properly on offense as they need a couple good O-linemen along with at least two more WR’s to compliment Diggs. The approach of getting cheap FA contracts and low round picks on offense is not getting the job done.

 

I think the amount of resources invested in DL (not just draft but FA $$) absolutely has hurt other aspects of the team. 

And yes, other teams do rotate on DL and need to have decent depth, but the starters may take more like 70% -80% of the snaps

 

The problem, though, hasn't been the resources per se but that so many of them have not worked out - Star Lotulelei signed for the big bucks, maybe gave the Bills a single? strong year, Vernon Butler zero good year, Harrison Phillips 3rd round pick, Ed Oliver 1st round.  So we had to move on and overpay for different FA.  Then the draft picks.  Overall, we had 3-1st round picks (Oliver, Shaq, Rousseau) and 3 2nd round picks (Epenesa, Basham, Jordan Phillips) in that game, and couldn't get there.

 

Zay Jones was 100% a McDermott pick.  At the time our WR coach had been Zay Jones college coach and that was His Guy.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Beck Water

[Tipster19]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:15 PM, Jerry Jabber said:

A big staple of the McDermott/Frazier defense is rotating the front four of the defense throughout the game. IMO, this philosophy has hurt the team, especially on offense given the amount of assets the Bills used just on the front four alone, let alone the defense as a whole. 
 

Since McDermott became the HC, the Bills had 7 first round picks, by which 5 were used on defense. 2 first round picks were used on the D-line [Oliver, Rousseau] and 2 second round picks [Basham, Epeneza]. Not to mention a huge FA signing in Von Miller. Basham and Epeneza have underperformed to date and weren’t worth the second round picks. In order for Oliver to be effective, he needs a good DT next to him and someone else to take on double teams, otherwise, he’s been ineffective (especially once Miller was lost for the season). Rousseau is good, but has been inconsistent.
 

Besides Diggs, the Bills have been using lower round picks for WR’s, but use 2nd and 3rd round picks on RB’s, which makes no sense!

 

(Didn’t mention Zay Jones as I’m not quite sure if he was a McDermott pick or if it was a Whaley pick, since that was Whaley’s last draft with the Bills). 
 

IMO, all these assets used on having eight D-linemen for each game is huge a waste. It’s an outdated approach and because of it, the Bills have not invested properly on offense as they need a couple good O-linemen along with at least two more WR’s to compliment Diggs. The approach of getting cheap FA contracts and low round picks on offense is not getting the job done.

Great post and a great take on current affairs! No, I don’t think that the Bills should invest resources heavily on the DL anymore, not with the results that they have been getting. We have Von and Rosseau and if we keep Oliver then this is good enough of a nucleus for the DL. Bring back Shaq and Phillips and be done, the rest can be FAs, lower draft picks and possibly a trade. 

[Jerry Jabber]

4 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

Great post and a great take on current affairs! No, I don’t think that the Bills should invest resources heavily on the DL anymore, not with the results that they have been getting. We have Von and Rosseau and if we keep Oliver then this is good enough of a nucleus for the DL. Bring back Shaq and Phillips and be done, the rest can be FAs, lower draft picks and possibly a trade. 

I agree 100% If the Bills pick a defender in any of the first three rounds this year, it would be a huge mistake.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I watched Chris Jones play every snap yesterday. It was also stated that the Chiefs do NOT use spots up for Special Teams guys who don't play.

[Billever76]

12 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

The strategy is not the problem the problem is the assets that are put into the strategy. I’m not a big fan of this strategy because it shows the type of personality McD and Frazier have there conservative by nature . But to put in all this money and picks into something and it not work in borderline devastating to this teams overall development . Essentially there throwing more money and picks into bkups on defense then they do for the offense and that’s outrageous. 
 

Starting next season when Allen and Diggs contracts kick in we will really feel the poor management for this team as a whole. They just don’t use high asset’s on bkup dline they use them on other positions on defense as well. Bernard is a classic example a 3rd rd Pk for Milano bkup. Milano just signed a 4yr deal why are they drafting his bkup in the 3rd when there’s still good players left on the board like Dylan Parham who ended up starting for Raiders this yr and was really good for them. The Boogie Pk was also overkill as Creed Humphrey was sitting a plate for the Bills . These are massive mistakes because not only are we passing on talent that can help us into the future we’re also letting our rivals reap the benefits of our poor decisions . The Chiefs drafted Creed the next Pk after we took Basham they must’ve been doing cartwheels and dancing in there draft room because we let them just have a top rated center in the draft. Beane and McD are running this team into the ground and are wasting the golden yrs of Josh Allen’s career which btw because of his playing style won’t reach more then 10yrs. Cam Newton lasted 8yrs before he fell off the cliff his body couldn’t take the punishment anymore I’m afraid Josh is heading in the same direction.

100% spot on