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[Ethan in Cleveland]

29 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

It’s really unfortunate that good interior linemen went one pick after two of our most head scratching picks. Two years ago…creed Humphrey went one pick after picking Basham. He’s now a pro bowl center. Last year…Parham went one pick after bernard. He made the all rookie team. Meanwhile…interior oline is arguably our biggest weakness two years later. 

And there is no revisionism there. There were tons of people screaming for Humphrey at the time. It made perfect sense, but instead Beane took tub of goo Basham who has barely saw the field his rookie year and in season two was only slightly better than bust Epenesa  

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

We should have drafted Nakobe Dean in round 2 instead of Cook.  The only reason why he's not starting in Philly is because TJ Edwards is ahead of him on the depth chart.  He would have started in the middle here giving flexibility with Edmunds.  It would have given us three solid starting LBs after Miller went down.  That's the risk when you shoot-the-moon on a 33-year old LB.  We didn't realize the benefit, we absorbed the risks with Von Miller's signing.  I for one would enjoy seeing what Edmunds could do on the edge regularly.  

Why? He struggles to get off blocks and playing with power. Not really a good combination when fighting lineman every play.

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

Well, a quick check shows that Dylan Parham, Las Vegas Raiders, made the NFL.com all rookie team — drafted right after Bernard, 90th overall. I'm not gonna continue this exercise but I'm pretty sure history shows a lot of good lineman in the third and fourth rounds.. Yes, hindsight is 20/20 but management should have known O-line was a greater need than a very undersized linebacker with middling speed.

 

12 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Parham was right there. I get that LB was a depth need but the team needed both depth at guard and someone to take over for Saffold long term.

 

https://www.silverandblackpride.com/2023/1/26/23553641/raiders-news-dylan-parham-struggled-rookie

https://raiderswire.usatoday.com/2023/01/17/dylan-parham-had-up-and-down-rookie-season-with-raiders/

 

I dunno about "all rookie team", who picks it and what the criteria are.  I think he's a bit on the small side for an NFL G?  6'3" 310?  And of course the Raiders were not a good team this year either at passing or running the ball so there's a lower bar for getting a lot of snaps with them.  But reaction to his play this season was, to say the least, mixed.

 

The point is, while in general, I'm sure there are talented G to be found in the 3rd and 4th round, in specific if we'd drafted Parham, I don't think he'd have seen the field much for the Bills, and if he did, fans might well be asking "Why did we spend a 3rd round pick on an undersized guard who can't see the field and who is surrendering pressure at the highest rate for his position when he does?  What a waste of a pick!"

 

I don't understand the Terrel Bernard pick any better than anyone else, but I had a quick look and I didn't see anyone drafted a couple picks before or 10-15 picks afterwards who seemed like a slam-dunk improvement.  Maybe there's someone there who will emerge next season.

 

This is not because I'm a huge Bills Drafting Apologist.  I'm still salty about Boogie Basham in 2021 when Creed Humphrey was on the board 2 picks later.  But, little though I follow college football, I thought it was clear Creed Humphrey was going to be a very very good OL.

 

I think if we want to be salty about last year's draft and OL, the place to be salty might be drafting Kaiir Elam at 23 with Tyler Smith and Tyler Linderbaum right behind him.  I don't know if Linderbaum is named to an "all rookie team", but he played C all season for a team that lives and dies with their OL and was named a "Pro Bowl Snub".

https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/tyler-linderbaum-afc-biggest-pro-bowl-snubs
Tyler Smith took over for Tyron Smith in Dallas and won praise.

 

I think that's a better example of the Bills drafting for need (needed a corner, so they took Elam) vs. really looking at the qualities of the players.  Just me maybe, and of course you could prove right about Dylan Parham.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

People can bellyache about Beane. But nothing beats the stupidity of the Bills desperately needing a DT, having Ngata fall into their laps, and passing on him for a terrible safety in Donte Whitner. Glad we aren’t back in that era! 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I don’t care about  PFF data. You didn’t know anything about Lloyd? Really? Edmunds at the edge?

 

Anyway, Lloyd played 80% of the defensive snaps, a lot of which came next to another rookie in Chad Muma for a playoff team. Dean is an undersized player who sat the bench and still got hurt (his durability was always a concern.) 

 

One guy played and flashed in the NFL. One guy sat the bench and still got hurt and was really good in college. i am definitely not the one joking here
 

 

 

Not trying to get into a tiff here, but Lloyd did nothing statistically, I didn't look at PFF, I looked at his stats.  15 starts at LB, 0 sacks, 0 TFL, 2 QB Hits.  IDK, maybe he's Milano light for Milano's first four years, pass defense only.  That's not the point.  Dean is five times the overall LB that Lloyd is.  From appearances it looks as if Lloyd is a pass-defending LB like Milano.  Not sure that's really what we need and what's going to improve the D.  We sorely lack run-stopping and overall well-rounded LBs.  

 

I'm not trying to lock horns with you here.   But Dean played behind Edwards, one of the best MLBs in the league.  He, Edwards, contributes heavily to Philly's D.  

 

Either way, I'd have taken Fortner over Cook any day because we needed, and still do, OL.  Cook was a luxury pick that we both reached for and couldn't afford.  He has shown no particular ability to be the full-time ball carrier in college and did we really need another receiving option short, that Allen often ignores.  No.  HIs catch% is unimpressive otherwise.  Poor use of a draft pick.  

Edited January 29, 2023 by PBF81

[SCBills]

This past draft is so strange…

 

Kaiir Elam looks like he could be a future CB1, but we only have limited looks because of McD’s bizarre obsession with a rotation this year. 
 

James Cook, ditto, future RB1, but we stuck with the lesser talented RB for much of the time in Singletary due to experience and trust.  
 

Khalil Shakir looks like a dynamic WR… took forever to find a role for him.  
 

Those are 3 very real potential building blocks that we may have hit on.  Nevermind the Benford draft pick who, at least looks like good CB depth, at best he may be a legit Safety next year.  
 

One could surmise we may go into ‘23 with 4 starters from that draft … and real reason to be excited about all of them.  
 

Then there’s the Bernard pick.  Just infuriating.  Made no sense at the time and a year later the picture doesn’t look any less blurry for his role on this team … unless his role, as a 3rd rounder, was always depth/ST linebacker.. in which case, wow…

[Beck Water]

20 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

And there is no revisionism there. There were tons of people screaming for Humphrey at the time. It made perfect sense, but instead Beane took tub of goo Basham who has barely saw the field his rookie year and in season two was only slightly better than bust Epenesa  

 

Not that this is saying a lot for Epenesa, but some people would argue that Epenesa was significantly better than Basham this year

Unless you're comparing Basham this year to Epenesa last year? Which, since the rest of the line was very different, may not be fair.

 

 

[PBF81]

22 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Why? He struggles to get off blocks and playing with power. Not really a good combination when fighting lineman every play.

 

Just trying to find his role.  He seems to struggle doing everything.  He's like Oliver, shows up for some games, in others you never hear his name called.  

 

I wasn't trying to suggest that he'd be the next Von Miller, but the reason why we're discussing this is because Beane can't draft.  Again, the reason why we had so many 2 LB sets is because we simply didn't have another LB capable of starting after Miller went down, not surprisingly at 33 and with recent injury issues prior to coming here.  

 

I'm not bullish on Edmunds, he's an average to above-average LB and an inconsistent one at that.  He posts great games sometimes, and stinkers at others.  They didn't pick up his 5th year for a reason.  We traded up to get him.  Not a great decision.  

 

He did improve this season, but it's also a contract year, so who knows whether that improvement will stick.  

Edited January 29, 2023 by PBF81

[First Round Bust]

6-1 - 220 - same size as Milano - position switch to the outside ?  but does he have the footspeed - Milano switched positions from college safety to OLB as well

 

This season - special teams replacement for Matakevich who made 3.2M as special teamer for sure but backup MLB to Edmunds....Dodson ?  6 feet - 237 lbs 

[Success]

He's the Bills' Rocky Bleier.  Needs some time.

 

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Kaiir Elam looks like he could be a future CB1, but we only have limited looks because of McD’s bizarre obsession with a rotation this year. 

 

That's something else that we're really not talking about.  

 

The entire d rotates except for the LBs where we have zero depth, hell, we don't even have three reliable starters at LB.  

 

But players like Oliver should be expected to take at least 80% of the snaps.  Oliver had 50% and Rousseau had 44%.  Both 1st rounders.  That's ridiculous.  

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Just trying to find his role.  He seems to struggle doing everything.  He's like Oliver, shows up for some games, in others you never hear his name called.  

 

I wasn't trying to suggest that he'd be the next Von Miller, but the reason why we're discussing this is because Beane can't draft.  Again, the reason why we had so many 2 LB sets is because we simply didn't have another LB capable of starting after Miller went down, not surprisingly at 33 and with recent injury issues prior to coming here.  

 

I'm not bullish on Edmunds, he's an average to above-average LB and an inconsistent one at that.  He posts great games sometimes, and stinkers at others.  They didn't pick up his 5th year for a reason.  We traded up to get him.  Not a great decision.  

 

He did improve this season, but it's also a contract year, so who knows whether that improvement will stick.  

Miller is a LB in name only in this defense because of his number. He's a DE here. We run so many 2 LB sets because we run nickel pretty much as our base. Not because Von went down. We've ran nickel pretty much since McDermott got here. 

[PBF81]

6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Not that this is saying a lot for Epenesa, but some people would argue that Epenesa was significantly better than Basham this year

Unless you're comparing Basham this year to Epenesa last year? Which, since the rest of the line was very different, may not be fair.

 

One of the most important things is consistency.  Take great players, the Bosa's, or the Watt's.  They play hard and well almost all the time.  

 

Our best players in the F7, besides Milano who's taken a number of years to develop into that player, don't show up with any consistency.  Somewhere hear or elsewhere I read that after Miller went out, our entire D regressed in a big way.  

 

Beane has drafted almost no consistent players.  Milano wasn't one of Beane's draftees.  

3 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Miller is a LB in name only in this defense because of his number. He's a DE here. We run so many 2 LB sets because we run nickel pretty much as our base. Not because Von went down. We've ran nickel pretty much since McDermott got here. 

 

Agreed, but that fuels my statements about the LB-ing corps even more.  I threw him in there to eliminate people saying that we had three until he went out.  

 

We've had only two decent LBs the entire time that Beane's been here, if even two, as it's taken Milano what, five seasons to develop to where he is now.  

 

Again, the point being that we have only two LBs, and if Edmunds leaves, ... then what, rhetorically.  

[John from Riverside]

41 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

And there is no revisionism there. There were tons of people screaming for Humphrey at the time. It made perfect sense, but instead Beane took tub of goo Basham who has barely saw the field his rookie year and in season two was only slightly better than bust Epenesa  

In retrospect, that would’ve absolutely been the right pic he could’ve played guard until Morse was ready to retire

 

Oh well time to go onto the next draft

[Beck Water]

14 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Yes, I know he looked terrible this season in limited play.

3rd rounder in a potential Super Bowl year.

We needed OL and WR badly.

Why did we draft him?

 

The Bills play a base 4-2-5 defense… 4 down linemen, two linebackers, 5 DBs including a Nickel (Taron) who acts as a linebacker at times. Was Bernard intended as insurance against a Taron or Edmunds injury? Was he intended to be used as a core special teamer and traditional OLB in 4-3 looks?

 

I didn’t understand this pick at the time and still don’t … unless it was always the plan to groom him to replace Edmunds… which also seems odd in a SB year.

 

So… what do you think was the ideal outcome Beane had in mind?

 

Try to keep the snarky/defeatist answers to a minimum.

 

Slept on it and the best I can come up with is that the Bills drafted him to groom as an eventual replacement for Taron Johnson or Matt Milano.

Milano similar physical makeup - 6'0" 223 when drafted.  Similar evaluation as being a "tweener" between safety and LB

 

If so, that's an example of a trend under Beane, they try to draft guys with high physical ceilings and develop them (AJE, where they asked him to transform his body completely and then re-learn how to play in a new body) rather than guys who can contribute fairly immediately.

 

13 hours ago, JohnNord said:

It’s looking like a pretty bad pick.  I don’t believe Bernard was drafted to replace Edmunds.  My guess is maybe they thought he could be the 3rd LB in a 4-3?  I just know he struggled badly when he saw time this season.  

 

I don't believe he was drafted to replace Edmunds either.  The one game where Bernard saw significant time, was the first NYJ game where he played for Milano.   To be fair, he had very novice secondary playing behind him - Hamlin and Jaquan Johnson at safety, Christian Benford as one of the CB.

 

But still, if it was supposed to be a benchmark of "how is he doing on that eventually replace Milano?" growth, the answer was "back in the pot with you!"

Edited January 29, 2023 by Beck Water

[frostbitmic]

1. Special Teams are 1/3 of the game, McD likes him some special team players. (Matakevitch replacement)

 

2. Backup to both Edmunds and Milano.

 

3. Potentially changing to a 4-3 defense next year and getting away from the cover nobody passive defense that makes sure the opponent doesn't throw a 20 yard pass on 3rd and 5.

Edited January 29, 2023 by frostbitmic

[bigK14094]

Cook is a part time player at least.  He is a zero yards after the first hit, but his speed gets him a lot of good yards sometimes.  Not the back for the goal line or any short yardage.  singletary can get a  couple of yards after first contact, so he is a must resign imho.  As for this lb, well, he will be  gone soon enough, once his contract runs out.

Yes, the draft plans seems a litle sketchy and out of sync.  Now, I understand that picking 27th or whatever you don't get the big hit first rounders, but rouseau and Elam can play in the league.  Maybe not all pros right now, but capable starters after their first year.  No excuse after that as drafting for need is legit.  And, if Taiwan Jones is on the roster again next year I am going to scream/

[MrEpsYtown]

49 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Not trying to get into a tiff here, but Lloyd did nothing statistically, I didn't look at PFF, I looked at his stats.  15 starts at LB, 0 sacks, 0 TFL, 2 QB Hits.  IDK, maybe he's Milano light for Milano's first four years, pass defense only.  That's not the point.  Dean is five times the overall LB that Lloyd is.  From appearances it looks as if Lloyd is a pass-defending LB like Milano.  Not sure that's really what we need and what's going to improve the D.  We sorely lack run-stopping and overall well-rounded LBs.  

 

I'm not trying to lock horns with you here.   But Dean played behind Edwards, one of the best MLBs in the league.  He, Edwards, contributes heavily to Philly's D.  

 

Either way, I'd have taken Fortner over Cook any day because we needed, and still do, OL.  Cook was a luxury pick that we both reached for and couldn't afford.  He has shown no particular ability to be the full-time ball carrier in college and did we really need another receiving option short, that Allen often ignores.  No.  HIs catch% is unimpressive otherwise.  Poor use of a draft pick.  

I hear ya. No locking horns here either. Dean to me is more of a will. I dont see him holding up at mike, where Lloyd does. I do think the Eagles give Dean a shot if Edwards is gone, but I still think he is too small. Lloyd was a premium run defender in college and I think he will continue to improve and form a pretty good tandem with Muma. 
 

And yes, we have missed out on a number of second round/third round linemen beculause we looked elsewhere and it hurts. 

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I hear ya. No locking horns here either. Dean to me is more of a will. I dont see him holding up at mike, where Lloyd does. I do think the Eagles give Dean a shot if Edwards is gone, but I still think he is too small. Lloyd was a premium run defender in college and I think he will continue to improve and form a pretty good tandem with Muma. 
 

And yes, we have missed out on a number of second round/third round linemen beculause we looked elsewhere and it hurts. 

 

All in all, the holes we have are due to the lack of effective drafting.  That's the main point that we seem to agree on.  You never know how players turn out over time.  

[Sisyphean Bills]

9 minutes ago, bigK14094 said:

Cook is a part time player at least.  He is a zero yards after the first hit, but his speed gets him a lot of good yards sometimes.  Not the back for the goal line or any short yardage.  singletary can get a  couple of yards after first contact, so he is a must resign imho.  As for this lb, well, he will be  gone soon enough, once his contract runs out.

Yes, the draft plans seems a litle sketchy and out of sync.  Now, I understand that picking 27th or whatever you don't get the big hit first rounders, but rouseau and Elam can play in the league.  Maybe not all pros right now, but capable starters after their first year.  No excuse after that as drafting for need is legit.  And, if Taiwan Jones is on the roster again next year I am going to scream/

I dunno. It's hard to feel like any RB is a "must" in today's NFL. There's plenty of evidence that after a handful of productive seasons, the best move is to trade the one you have in and drive a new one off the draft lot.