Jim Johnson was McD’s mentor. Where’s his defense?

[BADOLBILZ]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Personally I disagree but I don't think it is an unreasonable view. Leslie's defense relies on confusion on the back end and I think the loss of Hyde, injury to Poyer and diminishment of White just restricted what he could do. I would rather the regime ride and die with what they have. Rather than a coordinator change where in a year's time we hear the "natural progression from year 2 in the system."

 

I think we are in a position with Frazier that is not unlike the last few years of Ben Roethlisberger career for Pittsburgh............when you can get a team to 11-0 like Ben did in 2020 it's hard to justify replacing him.    

 

But the proof was late in seasons.   He wasn't good at the end of seasons anymore.

 

The Bills have been thoroughly dissected in the playoffs defensively each of the last 3 seasons.

 

If you can't see 64 year old Leslie as the DC for another 3-4 year contract then I think you don't extend him a new deal as DC..........it's time to move on.

 

I'd also agree with Eric Eager that climbing the same hill to the same type of futile conclusion with the same people sometimes makes it necessary to make changes that don't necessarily reflect the competence of the departed.

 

Tampa had to move on from Dungy to get over the hump.    It was time for Andy Reid to leave Philly when he did and they've had 3 different winning HC's and a SB since.  

 

Those guys are HOF coaches who could not inspire confidence due to past postseason failures.............that, IMO, is very squarely where Frazier sits.

 

And if McD isn't proactive about it.........I think that he could be lumped in with Leslie next year when it happens again.........which we don't want to see, IMO. 

 

It's not an easy call but his contract is up...........IMO it's just time for Leslie to be replaced.  

[JMM]

4 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

As a HC who once had to strip playcalling duties away from his coordinator, I think it’s time to move on from Frazier and the nickel defense he runs even on the goal line. Seems like it plays more like Dungy’s Tampa 2 and less like Jim Johnson’s anyway.

This! We run a Tampa 2 for the most part. That requires a impact DT (Sapp), which we don't have. Ed teases. And a great rangy MLB. Again Maine has been a tease.  It's a passive D compared with others. I've never liked it. For us older fans it reminds me of the Walt Corey D's back in the glory days. 

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't disagree the Bills had brain freeze in that moment and blew it. That is beyond debate.

Right.  Just like both the offense and defense were completely out coached vs KC the previous season.  And the offense and defense getting completely out coached a week ago.  Yes, our D had their fair share of blown coverages last week, but the D played so far off the entire game. Looking at the game plan, I see coaching scared. Just like vs KC the previous 2 seasons.  Literally giving them 5-15 yards on every play.  I just can’t buy into it anymore.  I don’t believe in the process on D.  If our pass rush isn’t running rampant, the D is stale and has very few answers.  

[Aussie Joe]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think there was at times this year. But that was down to personnel available to do as much disguise as they like on the back end. 

 

As for adjustments.... the Bills do them well and did to a lesser extent even on Sunday. They are a second half defense and that is consistent over multiple years. 

 

The third and longs is primarily a result of a sub standard pass rush. 

 

In respect of the third and longs … yes that is a factor, but I also point to the secondary play …

 

With the adjustments … there are games you can point to every season where they have been dominated and blown out on the scoreboard …although this year we had to wait until the last game of the season… it doesn’t happen regularly but it happens …

 

“Letting it ride” is to me a risky strategy given what we have observed this season, although it appears that’s the path they are going down…

 

I think that should mean that MCD has tied his own fate to this ultimately succeeding along with Leslie’s..

 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I think we are in a position with Frazier that is not unlike the last few years of Ben Roethlisberger career for Pittsburgh............when you can get a team to 11-0 like Ben did in 2020 it's hard to justify replacing him.    

 

But the proof was late in seasons.   He wasn't good at the end of seasons anymore.

 

The Bills have been thoroughly dissected in the playoffs defensively each of the last 3 seasons.

 

If you can't see 64 year old Leslie as the DC for another 3-4 year contract then I think you don't extend him a new deal as DC..........it's time to move on.

 

I'd also agree with Eric Eager that climbing the same hill to the same type of futile conclusion with the same people sometimes makes it necessary to make changes that don't necessarily reflect the competence of the departed.

 

Tampa had to move on from Dungy to get over the hump.    It was time for Andy Reid to leave Philly when he did and they've had 3 different winning HC's and a SB since.  

 

Those guys are HOF coaches who could not inspire confidence due to past postseason failures.............that, IMO, is very squarely where Frazier sits.

 

And if McD isn't proactive about it.........I think that he could be lumped in with Leslie next year when it happens again.........which we don't want to see, IMO. 

 

It's not an easy call but his contract is up...........IMO it's just time for Leslie to be replaced.  

Spot on, especially the bolded.  

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Tampa had to move on from Dungy to get over the hump.    It was time for Andy Reid to leave Philly when he did and they've had 3 different winning HC's and a SB since.  

 

Yeah I think a lot of people are afraid of a new coach because they fear they might be worse than what we have now. They could be, but they also could be better.

 

In addition to your examples of Dungy and Reid, the Patriots fired Pete Caroll who had a winning record and 3 playoff games with them... to hire Bill Belichick.

 

 

 

The 49ers also fired a multiple NFCCG and SB coach... and now they have one of the brightest minds in the game today who has had them in 3 of the last 4 NFC Championship games.

[Billever76]

22 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yeah I think a lot of people are afraid of a new coach because they fear they might be worse than what we have now. They could be, but they also could be better.

 

In addition to your examples of Dungy and Reid, the Patriots fired Pete Caroll who had a winning record and 3 playoff games with them... to hire Bill Belichick.

 

 

 

The 49ers also fired a multiple NFCCG and SB coach... and now they have one of the brightest minds in the game today who has had them in 3 of the last 4 NFC Championship games.

We simply need a hc who understands the offense is more important than Defense side of the ball...you can fill out your offense with high round picks and a big fa vet signing and field an average defense and win the superbowl in today's NFL..you can't doing it the opposite way

Edited January 28, 2023 by Billever76

[BillsVet]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

And if McD isn't proactive about it.........I think that he could be lumped in with Leslie next year when it happens again.........which we don't want to see, IMO. 

 

It's not an easy call but his contract is up...........IMO it's just time for Leslie to be replaced.  

 

A mid-season swoon each of the past few years makes me wonder if what you say here is already happening.  

 

I gave McD credit for how he handled the Damar Hamlin situation, but how they've fared these last 2 playoffs and maybe even the HOU WC loss were not good looks for the HC or his DC.  

 

Agree that some things are going stale and need to be refreshed. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Billever76 said:

What was the excuses for the other years?

 

It has to be better.

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Right.  Just like both the offense and defense were completely out coached vs KC the previous season.  And the offense and defense getting completely out coached a week ago.  Yes, our D had their fair share of blown coverages last week, but the D played so far off the entire game. Looking at the game plan, I see coaching scared. Just like vs KC the previous 2 seasons.  Literally giving them 5-15 yards on every play.  I just can’t buy into it anymore.  I don’t believe in the process on D.  If our pass rush isn’t running rampant, the D is stale and has very few answers.  

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

[Billever76]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It has to be better.

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

I can say all 50 of those games dont add up as important as those 3 games...superbowl windows and franchise qbs have a limited shelf life...either you grasp that opportunity and sieze it or let it slip through your hands and wonder what could have been.....

[Thrivefourfive]

4 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Why are we acting like the defense is bad?

 

A practice squad safety, 1 arm and 1 legged safety, clearly not back Tre White, 4th string DT, practice squad DE and practice squad DT all played high amounts of snaps vs Bengals. 

Because we are what we are. Injuries happen. Awful coaching and awful playing is the controllable substance that defines this “bad” defense in these playoffs, and last years playoff against KC, and the year before’s playoffs.

[Billever76]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It has to be better.

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

I'd also argue and say an average defense can perform as good as our 3 playoff losses and if we invested into the offense like we have the defense most likely 1 of those losses is turned into a win

[Einstein]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

 

Those 3 games are worth more than the 50 games.

 

Belichick isnt considered the greatest coach of all time because he won a bunch of regular season games. Its those hands covered in diamond studded SB rings that did that.

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

I can say all 50 of those games dont add up as important as those 3 games...

 

You can say that. It isn't a crazy view. I just don't agree.

27 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

I'd also argue and say an average defense can perform as good as our 3 playoff losses and if we invested into the offense like we have the defense most likely 1 of those losses is turned into a win

 

This I don't disagree with. The Bills have over invested in defense. I have been on that train for a while. And for all the clamour about defensive failures in our season ending games... only once (2021) has the offense genuinely held up its part of the bargain. There is serious investment needed there. 

21 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Those 3 games are worth more than the 50 games.

 

Belichick isnt considered the greatest coach of all time because he won a bunch of regular season games. Its those hands covered in diamond studded SB rings that did that.

 

Too much randomness in sample size. Especially as you are talking games against elite QBs. You can't expect the D to shut those down multiple times. Maybe 1 time in 3 it should have... but that is about the realistic ratio.

 

It is why I also am not absolving our O of blame. In the last 4 playoff exits they have underperformed 3 times. In the modern NFL it is harder to play great defense than great offense. For a great regular season offense to go under season average 3 of 4 season ending playoff games is not good enough.

Edited January 28, 2023 by GunnerBill

[BBills_88]

2 hours ago, vincec said:

I think they started off that way but they have gotten less and less aggressive each year. It seems like a conscious change in concept.

Yeah, that sucks. 

[NewEra]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It has to be better.

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

Timing has a lot to do with it.  Coming up big when it counts.  When it matters most.  Our playoff wins are against teams we were clearly better then.  Facing teams that were underdogs against or on a level playing field-  this defense is 0-4   Come up big just once in 4 years…… that’s isn’t too much to ask.  
 

Leslie Frazier has been a DC for 14 years and has made 1 championship game.  Prior to joining Buffalo, his passing defenses finished inside the top 10 1 time, when they were 9th.  
 

In 8 seasons he was in the top half of the league 2 times, when they did Uber 9th and 13th.  Always in the bottom half in interceptions.

 

in 8 seasons he was inside of the top 10, never.  He finished 10th once.  28th, 21th, 12th, 13th, 10th, 18th, 25th and 26th.  
 

his results in Buffalo, coaching under a defensive HC on a team that has devoted the majority of its assets to his defense, has been much better.  Until he gets brutally exposed in our finale.  I just can’t overlook how truly terrible our D has been in the last 3 season ending losses.  I don’t believe our coordinators have put our players in position to win the game (minus Daboll vs KC last year).  Our d has been embarrassed and no one is held accountable.  Like Mixon said, we ain’t Baltimore.  
 

I don’t think Frazier is a bad DC.  I think he’s a very good coach.  I just don’t think he’s a championship caliber coach and some of the players might be second guessing him.   I don’t think he’s capable of stifling a championship caliber team in the playoffs.  I think McD could be a championship coach, but he’s hitched his wagon to Frazier which could lead to next year being his last chance to accomplish his end goal as a Bill.  

[NewEra]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You can say that. It isn't a crazy view. I just don't agree.

I think the 50 games should be filtered and sorted by top 10 offenses. We’ve had some good showings on D, but it’s not representative of our league rank imo.  Playing the jets, fins and pats offenses x2 also helps.  
 

our d just hasn’t impressed me unless we’re close to 💯 healthy.  I feel like it relies on great play and execution more than most great defenses.  Our league rank says we’re a great d.  My eyes haven’t seen a great bills d since Frazier has been here.  A couple very good D’s.  

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Timing has a lot to do with it.  Coming up big when it counts.  When it matters most.  Our playoff wins are against teams we were clearly better then.  Facing teams that were underdogs against or on a level playing field-  this defense is 0-4   Come up big just once in 4 years…… that’s isn’t too much to ask.  
 

Leslie Frazier has been a DC for 14 years and has made 1 championship game.  Prior to joining Buffalo, his passing defenses finished inside the top 10 1 time, when they were 9th.  
 

In 8 seasons he was in the top half of the league 2 times, when they did Uber 9th and 13th.  Always in the bottom half in interceptions.

 

in 8 seasons he was inside of the top 10, never.  He finished 10th once.  28th, 21th, 12th, 13th, 10th, 18th, 25th and 26th.  
 

his results in Buffalo, coaching under a defensive HC on a team that has devoted the majority of its assets to his defense, has been much better.  Until he gets brutally exposed in our finale.  I just can’t overlook how truly terrible our D has been in the last 3 season ending losses.  I don’t believe our coordinators have put our players in position to win the game (minus Daboll vs KC last year).  Our d has been embarrassed and no one is held accountable.  Like Mixon said, we ain’t Baltimore.  
 

I don’t think Frazier is a bad DC.  I think he’s a very good coach.  I just don’t think he’s a championship caliber coach and some of the players might be second guessing him.   I don’t think he’s capable of stifling a championship caliber team in the playoffs.  I think McD could be a championship coach, but he’s hitched his wagon to Frazier which could lead to next year being his last chance to accomplish his end goal as a Bill.  

 

Nah. It is over analysis of a defense that has played well for the most part (though I agree has generally under performed in the tough moments in the playoffs) with the purpose of defending an offense that has underperformed 3 out of 4 times too. The Bills just have to be better all around in those big spots. Over focus on Frazier given that is unfair. Personally I see them as the Dungy Colts. They keep coming up short against elite opposition in the post season. But one year they won't. And I know that patience is hard, but it's the right answer IMO. As a team (not just a defense) they need to break through that barrier.

Just now, NewEra said:

I think the 50 games should be filtered and sorted by top 10 offenses. We’ve had some good showings on D, but it’s not representative of our league rank imo.  Playing the jets, fins and pats offenses x2 also helps.  
 

our d just hasn’t impressed me unless we’re close to 💯 healthy.  I feel like it relies on great play and execution more than most great defenses.  Our league rank says we’re a great d.  My eyes haven’t seen a great bills d since Frazier has been here.  A couple very good D’s.  

 

Okay. Filter every other defense in the NFL that same way. Then rank them. I am confident Frazier will still be top 10 at worst.

[Dr. Who]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah. It is over analysis of a defense that has played well for the most part (though I agree has generally under performed in the tough moments in the playoffs) with the purpose of defending an offense that has underperformed 3 out of 4 times too. The Bills just have to be better all around in those big spots. Over focus on Frazier given that is unfair. Personally I see them as the Dungy Colts. They keep coming up short against elite opposition in the post season. But one year they won't. And I know that patience is hard, but it's the right answer IMO. As a team (not just a defense) they need to break through that barrier.

 

Okay. Filter every other defense in the NFL that same way. Then rank them. I am confident Frazier will still be top 10 at worst.

I hope you're right, because that seems like the path we are going to take. I am with those who want a change. I'd prefer a more aggressive defensive approach. Regardless, more than anything, I hope OBD got the message that oline and offense needs to be the priority this offseason.

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I’ve been frustrated as many have by the defensive issues seen in the post seasons the past 4 years.  I know McD learned at the feet of Jim Johnson, the famed DC for the Eagles.  So I went back and reviewed some of Johnson’s philosophies.

 

Like our current D, Johnson believed in making offenses take their time getting downfield, believing that opened up more chances for the opposing offense to make mistakes.  But once past the 50 yard line, then Johnson would get aggressive.  He was a big believer in zone blitz schemes, was probably the inventor of it.  He had very creative blitz calls, would sometimes send two corners out of the blue.  He’d move guys around on the line to create mismatches.  And his D always ranked near or at the top, despite personnel changes every year.

 

So I’m wondering why McD’s team has strayed so far away from his mentor’s philosophy.  We rarely see creative blitz packages.  We rarely move personnel around to creat mismatches; we just play the same 4 man rush and it hasn’t worked in the playoffs.  Our defense is passive; Johnson attacked.  
 

I wonder if McD has acceded to Frazier’s philosophy.  If so, then a good reason to let Frazier go and get back to his mentor’s concepts.  I don’t see us winning the Lombardi unless we change our defensive philosophy.

The whole year that’s exactly what the defense did. They made offenses work, their way down the field, and then got stingy year as they got closer to the red zone.
 

Right up until the Bengals game

 

I’m not happy with what happened in that playoff game but whenever you take a step back and you look at it, you have to look at the overall work a 13 and three season is nothing to scar fat. There are like 95% of the league that wish that they could do that.

 

Nobody is getting fired after a 13 and three season nobody not the head coach not the general manager, not the coordinators

 

The question that needs to be answered is what happened once we hit the playoffs

 

I still believe, and I have seen nothing to change my opinion. This team was emotionally spent the damar Hamlin situation cause this team to be spent emotionally. You don’t go from being one of the highest scoring teams in the league and giving up some of the fewest points in the league, along with finding ways to win close games all year long to what we saw last Sunday 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Yeah I think a lot of people are afraid of a new coach because they fear they might be worse than what we have now. They could be, but they also could be better.

 

In addition to your examples of Dungy and Reid, the Patriots fired Pete Caroll who had a winning record and 3 playoff games with them... to hire Bill Belichick.

 

 

 

The 49ers also fired a multiple NFCCG and SB coach... and now they have one of the brightest minds in the game today who has had them in 3 of the last 4 NFC Championship games.

They absolutely should be afraid of going backwards with a new coach a new system that requires new players
 

This team just went 13 and three there is absolutely no reason to believe that a new offensive or defensive philosophy that required retooling on both sides of the ball, would not result in a lesser record to think that you’re going to do better than 13 and three with major changes is just Folly

 

I get the people are concerned about what happened when we hit the playoffs this year I am too but first you gotta get there