Jim Johnson was McD’s mentor. Where’s his defense?

[oldmanfan]

I’ve been frustrated as many have by the defensive issues seen in the post seasons the past 4 years.  I know McD learned at the feet of Jim Johnson, the famed DC for the Eagles.  So I went back and reviewed some of Johnson’s philosophies.

 

Like our current D, Johnson believed in making offenses take their time getting downfield, believing that opened up more chances for the opposing offense to make mistakes.  But once past the 50 yard line, then Johnson would get aggressive.  He was a big believer in zone blitz schemes, was probably the inventor of it.  He had very creative blitz calls, would sometimes send two corners out of the blue.  He’d move guys around on the line to create mismatches.  And his D always ranked near or at the top, despite personnel changes every year.

 

So I’m wondering why McD’s team has strayed so far away from his mentor’s philosophy.  We rarely see creative blitz packages.  We rarely move personnel around to creat mismatches; we just play the same 4 man rush and it hasn’t worked in the playoffs.  Our defense is passive; Johnson attacked.  
 

I wonder if McD has acceded to Frazier’s philosophy.  If so, then a good reason to let Frazier go and get back to his mentor’s concepts.  I don’t see us winning the Lombardi unless we change our defensive philosophy.

[Brand J]

As a HC who once had to strip playcalling duties away from his coordinator, I think it’s time to move on from Frazier and the nickel defense he runs even on the goal line. Seems like it plays more like Dungy’s Tampa 2 and less like Jim Johnson’s anyway.

[Yobogoya!]

Yeah I mean our base defense is fine and dandy, but like you say: the lack of well designed or creative pressure packages is a big issue. I suppose it doesn’t help that a primary candidate for a blitz, our middle linebacker Edmunds, is so brutally horrible at it. 
 

This is where a talented DC separates themselves from the pack. If you know your front four struggle to generate pressure and you can’t figure out a way to compensate for that, what are you even doing? Anyone can call base defense all drive while a talented QB is picking you apart. 

[Billl]

 

Here are the players who played the most defensive snaps against the Bengals:

Lawson

Rousseau

Oliver

Settle

Milano

Edmunds

Johnson

Elam

White

Marlowe

Poyer

 

Poyer and White were clearly less than 100%.  There is not a DC in the history of the league who could take that group of players and consistently slow down Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Hurst.  Had Von, Hyde, Poyer, and White all been available and close to 100%, it’s a different conversation.  Instead, Frasier brought a knife to a gun fight.

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Why are we acting like the defense is bad?

 

A practice squad safety, 1 arm and 1 legged safety, clearly not back Tre White, 4th string DT, practice squad DE and practice squad DT all played high amounts of snaps vs Bengals. 

[Sierra Foothills]

Injuries undoubtedly played a big part in the underachievement of the Bills defense this year.

 

Set atop the failure at Kansas City last year and you have the basis for a belief that the defense needs to be revamped.

 

59 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I’ve been frustrated as many have by the defensive issues seen in the post seasons the past 4 years. I know McD learned at the feet of Jim Johnson, the famed DC for the Eagles. So I went back and reviewed some of Johnson’s philosophies.

 

Like our current D, Johnson believed in making offenses take their time getting downfield, believing that opened up more chances for the opposing offense to make mistakes. But once past the 50 yard line, then Johnson would get aggressive.  He was a big believer in zone blitz schemes, was probably the inventor of it.

 

FWIW, the names most associated with the invention and development of the zone blitz are Bill Arnsparger, Dick LeBeau, and Dom Capers.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

Here are the players who played the most defensive snaps against the Bengals:

Lawson

Rousseau

Oliver

Settle

Milano

Edmunds

Johnson

Elam

White

Marlowe

Poyer

 

Poyer and White were clearly less than 100%.  There is not a DC in the history of the league who could take that group of players and consistently slow down Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Hurst.  Had Von, Hyde, Poyer, and White all been available and close to 100%, it’s a different conversation.  Instead, Frasier brought a knife to a gun fight.

 

 

And nor was Oliver close to 100% either. At times it felt like Edmunds and Milano were playing defense on their own.... and that is cos they kinda were for stages. 

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

 And his D always ranked near or at the top, despite personnel changes every year.

 

Like the Bills D you mean? 

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Why are we acting like the defense is bad?

 

A practice squad safety, 1 arm and 1 legged safety, clearly not back Tre White, 4th string DT, practice squad DE and practice squad DT all played high amounts of snaps vs Bengals. 

That was last week.  Look at the performance the three years prior in the playoffs.  It doesn’t hold up well.

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And nor was Oliver close to 100% either. At times it felt like Edmunds and Milano were playing defense on their own.... and that is cos they kinda were for stages. 

That’s an excuse for last week .  What about the previous few years, especially the 13 second debacle?

[UConn James]

38 minutes ago, Yobogoya! said:

Yeah I mean our base defense is fine and dandy, but like you say: the lack of well designed or creative pressure packages is a big issue. I suppose it doesn’t help that a primary candidate for a blitz, our middle linebacker Edmunds, is so brutally horrible at it. 
 

This is where a talented DC separates themselves from the pack. If you know your front four struggle to generate pressure and you can’t figure out a way to compensate for that, what are you even doing? Anyone can call base defense all drive while a talented QB is picking you apart. 

Edmunds for the last four years when blitzing, actually SEEKS OUT and ENGAGES with a blocker. Has anyone informed him that this is not how one blitzes? The same is true about half the time for Milano. So it’s like… are they being coached to do this? I don’t understand it. There are times before Von where it’s like we send 7 and STILL haven’t gotten even a sniff at a QB, who then calmly hit a wide open receiver. It’s infuriating.

 

McD’s response the few times reporters have asked him about Jim Johnson at pressers has been a mixture of a smile that indicates fondness and respect, but also an air of ‘I don’t do things quite the same way he did.’ McD was fired by JJ. So… I dunno.

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And nor was Oliver close to 100% either. At times it felt like Edmunds and Milano were playing defense on their own.... and that is cos they kinda were for stages. 

 

Like the Bills D you mean? 

Dane Jackson actually had a pretty good game.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Dane Jackson actually had a pretty good game.

 

He did. That is fair.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

That’s an excuse for last week .  What about the previous few years, especially the 13 second debacle?

 

The 13 second debacle was indeed a debacle. From coaching to special teams to defense. But the Bills defense has ranked highly every year too and for as great as Jim Johnson was the Eagles never got over the hump with him as DC either.

 

We are all frustrated. We all want the Bills to win a Superbowl. And of course the coaching has to do better in some of those big spots. But Jordan Poyer blew two coverages for the first 2 touchdowns. I can't remember him blowing 2 in a game even one other time in 6 years with the Bills. Some of that you just can't legislate for. Lots of things have to be better than they were last Sunday. I don't think firings is an automatic route to making those things better.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

42 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

Here are the players who played the most defensive snaps against the Bengals:

Lawson- first rounder and FA pickup

Rousseau- first rounder 

Oliver- first rounder 

Settle- pricey FA 

Milano- AP

Edmunds- first rounder

Johnson- big new contract 

Elam- first rounder

White- 1 round + massive extension 

Marlowe - trade/back up 

Poyer- AP

 

Poyer and White were clearly less than 100%.  There is not a DC in the history of the league who could take that group of players and consistently slow down Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Hurst.  Had Von, Hyde, Poyer, and White all been available and close to 100%, it’s a different conversation.  Instead, Frasier brought a knife to a gun fight.

 

I look at this differently based on the cost of this line up, they shouldn’t be a knife 

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The 13 second debacle was indeed a debacle. From coaching to special teams to defense. But the Bills defense has ranked highly every year too and for as great as Jim Johnson was the Eagles never got over the hump with him as DC either.

 

We are all frustrated. We all want the Bills to win a Superbowl. And of course the coaching has to do better in some of those big spots. But Jordan Poyer blew two coverages for the first 2 touchdowns. I can't remember him blowing 2 in a game even one other time in 6 years with the Bills. Some of that you just can't legislate for. Lots of things have to be better than they were last Sunday. I don't think firings is an automatic route to making those things better.

A wiser HC and DC would have rushed 3 and ordered the Bills DBs to play press and immediately grab and hold onto every eligible KC receiver for dear life for two plays, forcing a hail mary from the chiefs’ own 35 with 4-5 seconds left. Maybe even do it a third time to ensure that the clock gets down to under 4 seconds , ensuring one play only. It would have worked. Instead, they played off. Mind boggling given the amount of time left, kc’s 3 TOs, the quality of the KC qb and receivers, and the distance they had to go.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

A wiser HC and DC would have rushed 3 and ordered the Bills DBs to play press and immediately grab and hold onto every eligible KC receiver for dear life for two plays, forcing a hail mary from the chiefs’ own 35 with 4-5 seconds left. Maybe even do it a third time to ensure that the clock gets down to under 4 seconds , ensuring one play only. It would have worked. Instead, they played off. Mind boggling given the amount of time left, kc’s 3 TOs, the quality of the KC qb and receivers, and the distance they had to go.

 

I don't disagree the Bills had brain freeze in that moment and blew it. That is beyond debate.

[BullBuchanan]

53 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

Here are the players who played the most defensive snaps against the Bengals:

Lawson

Rousseau

Oliver

Settle

Milano

Edmunds

Johnson

Elam

White

Marlowe

Poyer

 

Poyer and White were clearly less than 100%.  There is not a DC in the history of the league who could take that group of players and consistently slow down Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Hurst.  Had Von, Hyde, Poyer, and White all been available and close to 100%, it’s a different conversation.  Instead, Frasier brought a knife to a gun fight.

 

We have more secondary talent than the Ravens and they did just fine. We also have an all-pro linebacker and another linebacker many folks like to argue is a "top 10". I'd like to think Harbaugh would have done a FAR better job with the same group of players.

[BADOLBILZ]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The 13 second debacle was indeed a debacle. From coaching to special teams to defense. But the Bills defense has ranked highly every year too and for as great as Jim Johnson was the Eagles never got over the hump with him as DC either.

 

We are all frustrated. We all want the Bills to win a Superbowl. And of course the coaching has to do better in some of those big spots. But Jordan Poyer blew two coverages for the first 2 touchdowns. I can't remember him blowing 2 in a game even one other time in 6 years with the Bills. Some of that you just can't legislate for. Lots of things have to be better than they were last Sunday. I don't think firings is an automatic route to making those things better.

 

 

My concern is that the Bills defense will continually respond against Cinci the way the Patriots defense now responds to playing Buffalo since Josh started going off on them in the second game of 2021............uncharacteristically bad.

 

The Bengals could easily have scored TD's on 9 of the first 10 drives they played against Leslie this season.    That just doesn't add up.   They are good but they aren't THAT good.

 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

As a HC who once had to strip playcalling duties away from his coordinator, I think it’s time to move on from Frazier and the nickel defense he runs even on the goal line. Seems like it plays more like Dungy’s Tampa 2 and less like Jim Johnson’s anyway.

 

I just don't think firing Frazier will do anything. This is McD's defense.

 

(Ask a Carolina fan)

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

As a HC who once had to strip playcalling duties away from his coordinator, I think it’s time to move on from Frazier and the nickel defense he runs even on the goal line. Seems like it plays more like Dungy’s Tampa 2 and less like Jim Johnson’s anyway.

I agree Jay Jim Johnson would blitz anyone at anytime. McDermott and Frazier just don’t do that 

[mjd1001]

Its hard to argue that the defense hasn't been statistically good, it has.  It also, for the most part, has been effective over the past few years.  The issue I have is that I simply don't like the style.  The 'bend but don't break' isn't much fun for me. I'd rather give up more yards and be lower in the rankings but have a D-unit that makes more big plays and gets more turnovers.