With Oliver Value Goes Beyond the Stat Line

[Rich Stadium Original]

Let me start right off that Oliver is not on a level with Williams, Jones, or Donald, but to judge his value solely by the stat line is misleading.

It is pretty common knowledge that Oliver played injured the last half of the season (as did most of the D line) where he saw a disproportional number of double teams than the rest of his linemates. In a Frasier defense, thats kind of the plan. Clog up the middle freeing up the LBs to make a tackle.

Unfortunately, your DE (insert whichever name you like) was routinely beat 1 on 1 by the opposing tackle or tight end, and the pulling lineman blew up your LB, which in most cases was Taron Johnson, resulting in a big run.

Dont forget the 1st half of the season, where you couldn't double team BOTH Miller and Oliver, so there was a lot more pass rush pressure up the middle, and success against the run.

  Removing Oliver from the center of the line when Miller is back means less success defending the middle of the line..it frees up an offensive lineman from the other team.

  The real disaster on the D line is the complete whiff in drafting a bunch of 1st and 2nd round edge rushers that are anything but....

[IndyMark]

I think you misunderstood.  We would put another player in the 3DT slot, not just remove Ed and leave it blank.

 

The preference would be someone a bit larger and sturdier whom can perform in less than ideal conditions.

 

I do not think anyone said remove Oliver and leave blank?  'Cuz there is no way you are saying Ed is irreplaceable, are you?

 

Spoiler alert = he is quite replaceable.

[dorquemada]

I dont know.  At times, Oliver moved with violence and had to be accounted for, but it feels like that was at best a few plays a game, and the rest of the time he was getting blown up or a RB was blasting past him.  He seems too small to play on the IDL

[Toledo Bill]

In your topic replace Oliver’s name with Daquan Jones.

[Malazan]

The Bills have a lot of players whose 'value' goes beyond the stat line. I'd like a few more players whose value is in the stats. 

[dorquemada]

3 minutes ago, Malazan said:

The Bills have a lot of players whose 'value' goes beyond the stat line. I'd like a few more players whose value is in the stats. 

 

Right, there's no such thing as a moral victory

[Rich Stadium Original]

Larger and sturdier doesnt equate to more talent. I think Oliver is in a similar situation as Diggs..the amount of double teams he is seeing should be freeing up somebody else to pick up their game, and it isnt.  I'm not sure IF you can find anybody right now with more bang/buck with the current cap situation.

[dorquemada]

3 minutes ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Larger and sturdier doesnt equate to more talent. I think Oliver is in a similar situation as Diggs..the amount of double teams he is seeing should be freeing up somebody else to pick up their game, and it isnt.  I'm not sure IF you can find anybody right now with more bang/buck with the current cap situation.

 

This is also true.  What is his hit?  $10m?  You probably keep him and maybe draft a big body in the later rounds

[Billz4ever]

29 minutes ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Larger and sturdier doesnt equate to more talent. I think Oliver is in a similar situation as Diggs..the amount of double teams he is seeing should be freeing up somebody else to pick up their game, and it isnt.  I'm not sure IF you can find anybody right now with more bang/buck with the current cap situation.

For an interior D-lineman, he's undersized.  He's often unable to shed blockers and gets pushed around against the run.

 

Obvious passing downs are the only place he's decently effective.  I'm guessing we were hoping for more than just a situational player when we took him 9th overall. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Billz4ever

[John from Riverside]

Oliver has been hurt all year when healthy is a difference maker

[IndyMark]

10 minutes ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Larger and sturdier doesnt equate to more talent. I think Oliver is in a similar situation as Diggs..the amount of double teams he is seeing should be freeing up somebody else to pick up their game, and it isnt.  I'm not sure IF you can find anybody right now with more bang/buck with the current cap situation.

 

Again, another goofy comparison on Ed. In another thread someone mentioned Ed and Aaron Donald were the same size and with that they would take Ed.  Now a comparison with Diggs and double teams. I am at a loss. What is the play here? An unending line of excuses for his lack of impact?  Leading up the Bengals game with 3 back up linemen some here were just sure "Big" Ed was gonna eat, he was gonna have a day, he will be the game changer.  Guess what? .5 of an assist on a tackle.  That is what.  Was he injured?  As many NFL'ers state at that time of the season, who isn't injured? 

 

If he was that injured why play him?  No way a 75% healthy Oliver is better than a 100% anyone who can play DL. It does not work that way. 

 

Also, just to be accurate, no where did I state larger and sturdier equals more talent.  What I stated is we would benefit from that, simply to due to the physics of the IDL position.  Evidence?  See the Eagles.  They are considerably larger at the DT position and with talent that becomes an issue for an offense.  Ed has shown his talent limitations, and sure under the ideal conditions at times he can play well. We should not be ok with that, as a top 10 pick.  He should be a force on his own, but he needs too many things to be ideal for him to truly be a disruptor and he is not large enough to make it happen under less than ideal conditions.

 

I get it.  The down votes and googly eyes will come.....I am ok with that.     

 

 

[947]

Oliver has always been dominant in stretches, he has a couple amazing games every year. He also has 5-6 games every year that he's invisible. Every year it seems we hear that he's been playing hurt, 4 years of that is a trend.

 

The silly D-Line rotation prevents him from ever putting up notable sack numbers. I suspect if he moves on & plays 80% of snaps like a normal team would do, he'll be viewed as a better player.

[Sharky7337]

Sorry but I have had numerous nasty high ankle sprains. And it doesn't take more them a month to be ok.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sharky7337

[colin]

like edmunds, oliver is a good player, but not a great player.

 

great players make players around them better.  poy and maybe hyde last season, tre white for his singular best season.

 

based on what we have seen this season on the DL, Von Miller and to a lesser extend Da'quon Jones are the DL we have who make the DL around them better.

 

the sad part is we put so much into it and don't have much to show on the DL.

 

the happy part is fair market value Free agents like jones can come in (and costly but good ones like miller) and simply improve our team.

 

so we gotta find more of them, and while oliver is on the squad next season and i hope he gets 15 sacks, just like edumunds he only seems to make marginal improvements because he's getting tapped out in terms of his ability to impact.

[BarleyNY]

46 minutes ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Let me start right off that Oliver is not on a level with Williams, Jones, or Donald, but to judge his value solely by the stat line is misleading.

It is pretty common knowledge that Oliver played injured the last half of the season (as did most of the D line) where he saw a disproportional number of double teams than the rest of his linemates. In a Frasier defense, thats kind of the plan. Clog up the middle freeing up the LBs to make a tackle.

Unfortunately, your DE (insert whichever name you like) was routinely beat 1 on 1 by the opposing tackle or tight end, and the pulling lineman blew up your LB, which in most cases was Taron Johnson, resulting in a big run.

Dont forget the 1st half of the season, where you couldn't double team BOTH Miller and Oliver, so there was a lot more pass rush pressure up the middle, and success against the run.

  Removing Oliver from the center of the line when Miller is back means less success defending the middle of the line..it frees up an offensive lineman from the other team.

  The real disaster on the D line is the complete whiff in drafting a bunch of 1st and 2nd round edge rushers that are anything but....

The issue with Oliver is the same as with Edmunds. Both were taken in the top half of the first round of the draft and through four seasons both flashed, but failed to live up to their draft position. Neither were extended before their fifth year option for that reason. 
 

Edmunds took a big step forward this season, but I don’t think that it was enough to keep him at the price he likely can get In FA. I think Oliver is in the same boat as Edmunds was last off-season. If I were to bet on it I don’t think he stays here past the 2023 season.

 

The whiffing on edge rushes is also a problem, but a separate one. 

[gonzo1105]

He needs to go. Sorry but he's had 4 years and he's going to have a 5th. He was Aaron Donald Lite coming out and people expected him to be a force as a pass rusher in the NFL. He has yet to be that guy. People's excuse for him and his lack of sacks in college was because the University of Houston made him a Nose which wasn't his natural position. He's had two big bodies next to him in his career to take up blockers for him in Star and now Dequan Jones. 

 

It hasn't happened. He's a solid player but we could get his type of player and production out of a DT we draft in the 3rd or 4th round. He also had half a year without Von Miller to prove he could be a dominant force that teams had to account for and he did nothing. He may have been banged up a little this year but what about the previous 3. He was the 9th overall pick in the draft. 

[somnus00]

I'm a fan of Oliver. He's been pretty good. Really good at times. But every year there is just another excuse as to why he hasn't taken the step to be the dominant force we drafted him to be.

[JMM]

The comparison to Donald is not valid and never was. When we drafted him my hope was he would be a poor man's John Randle. That to me was a better comparison. Unfortunately he doesn't appear to have the motor that made Randle A HOF. He disappears for stretches. As a penetrator you can't get swallowed up like he does.

[Charles Romes]

7 minutes ago, colin said:

like edmunds, oliver is a good player, but not a great player.

 

great players make players around them better.  poy and maybe hyde last season, tre white for his singular best season.

 

based on what we have seen this season on the DL, Von Miller and to a lesser extend Da'quon Jones are the DL we have who make the DL around them better.

 

the sad part is we put so much into it and don't have much to show on the DL.

 

the happy part is fair market value Free agents like jones can come in (and costly but good ones like miller) and simply improve our team.

 

so we gotta find more of them, and while oliver is on the squad next season and i hope he gets 15 sacks, just like edumunds he only seems to make marginal improvements because he's getting tapped out in terms of his ability to impact.

 

yes, we have a lot of these players.  And we are in the same situation with non qbs as qb purgatory teams like the Vikings who must pay the max for someone good not great. 

[Billz4ever]

3 minutes ago, colin said:

like edmunds, oliver is a good player, but not a great player.

 

great players make players around them better.  poy and maybe hyde last season, tre white for his singular best season.

 

based on what we have seen this season on the DL, Von Miller and to a lesser extend Da'quon Jones are the DL we have who make the DL around them better.

 

the sad part is we put so much into it and don't have much to show on the DL.

 

the happy part is fair market value Free agents like jones can come in (and costly but good ones like miller) and simply improve our team.

 

so we gotta find more of them, and while oliver is on the squad next season and i hope he gets 15 sacks, just like edumunds he only seems to make marginal improvements because he's getting tapped out in terms of his ability to impact.

Jones is the easily the best interior lineman we have on this roster as a 4th round pick.  It's pretty clear Ed has never and probably will never live up to his draft position.

 

He's a liability against the run because he's undersized and often can't shed his blocks.  Obvious passing downs are the only times I like seeing him in there.