Buscaglia: Both Bills Coordinators are likely to be back in 2023

[Thurman#1]

23 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Disagree.  We were facing a team with 3/5 of the starting O-line out and we got manhandled.  A D-Line should be licking their chops to know they're facing an offense in that kind of situation.  

 

The offense struggling was no big surprise. We've seen this offense do this since the 2nd half of the Packers game.  When Diggs is our only real threat at receiver and Josh can't get him the ball, that's what's going to happen.  

 

You're saying the offense should've been able to win a shootout with them, even though it's obvious their offense has more legit weapons, and our defense had no answer.

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I didn't have a problem with the Saffold signing. But it was clear as day, to anyone who watches football how horrible he was, and they never made any effort to replace him at all. I know their depth wasn't great, but their was no attempt. Is Van Roten better? I dunno. Ike Boettger when he came back? At this point yeah. They got rid of Quentin Spain quick and should have replaced Saffold in the same manner. 

 

Another weird thing to me, why put the two most inexperienced linemen on the line next to each other on the right? I mean stick Bates between Dawkins and Morse and Saffold/Van Roten next to Brown. 

 

The whole process around Saffold was weird and illogical. 

 

A Titans friend of mine came over for the Bills/Cinci game and he didn't know that Saffold was on the Bills, he started laughing once he saw Saffold and started making fun of him.  He had nothing good to say about his time in Tennessee.   

 

Morse and Dawkins are the only relatively consistent OL-men that we have.  The rest are mediocre and below-average.  But this is what happens when you stock your OL talent from the budget bargain bin in free agency with 1-2 year signees.  

 

31 is old for a C and given Morse's 6 concussions, I'd make plans for the future there.  Both are only signed for two more seasons as it is.  Rookie OL-men rarely come in and play to above-average levels.  And what if either goes down due to injury?  Morse already missed a few games and he was injury prone before he came here, now he's entering his back-9, with 6 concussions.  I mean looking at it from his point of view, Jr. Seau comes to mind.  

 

To your point, when you have Allen, the entire approach, or non-approach we could say, to "building" the OL is weird and illogical.  

[Haslett_Stomp]

Watching the 49ers offense operate with a 3rd string QB magnifies the ineptitude of the Bills offensive scheme(s).

[schoolhouserock]

Lots of speculation in this thread about some sort of a “blame game” going on behind the scenes between the various coaches.

 

The truth is that we don’t really know the interpersonal dynamics among the various coaches.

 

We could speculate about other ways this shook out…

 

For example, maybe Jim Salgado wanted to do something other than coach safeties?

 

Or perhaps the Bills determined that a major shift in approach to their defensive backfield was warranted and they felt coach Salgado wasn’t the right person to aid that transition?

 

Everything doesn’t always have to be the worst case scenario!

 

 

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

 

Yes, we sacrifice the guy coaching the position where we were missing one all-pro almost all season and the other all-pro was playing hurt all year.

 

Make it make sense.

 

 

Yeah, I wish that instead of the guys who were there in the meetings watching the actual coaching and talking to the players making the call there, instead of the fans who have very little first-hand knowledge.

 

Oh, wait ...

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

 

Our DL vs. the Bengals featured 3 former 1st rounders and 2 former 2nd rounders, 2 and 2 if we only count the ones on Beane's watch.  

 

It's quite possible that he doesn't know what he's doing.  

9 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

So we can't really blame Frazier, but. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . we can fire the Safeties coach ?

 

 

 

LOL, like I joked, nothing really changes until we fire one of the Quality Control Assistant coaches.  

 

Again, loyalty is good, but when it supersedes the business/performance aspect of the enterprise, ... 

[Thurman#1]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Our DL vs. the Bengals featured 3 former 1st rounders and 2 former 2nd rounders, 2 and 2 if we only count the ones on Beane's watch.  

 

It's quite possible that he doesn't know what he's doing.  

 

LOL, like I joked, nothing really changes until we fire one of the Quality Control Assistant coaches.  

 

Again, loyalty is good, but when it supersedes the business/performance aspect of the enterprise, ... 

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

True, Daq being out hurt and of course Von, but that still leaves us with Groot, Ed, Shaq, Boog, and AJE (not mentioning Settle or Phillips since we didn't draft them and Phillips was playing with 1 arm).

 

That's a whole lot of first and 2nd round picks right there that got pushed up and down the football field by a backup O-Line.

 

But I certainly agree with you they didn't look like the same team.  Oh, how I dream of last year's team with a Von Miller on it and the possibilities if :13 seconds doesn't happen.

[Livinginthepast]

1 hour ago, Bandito said:

The Bills scored 10 pts against the Bengals. 

And the Bengals scored 27 points on us, and actually it should have been 31. So your point was? 

[newcam2012]

15 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

That's another way to look at it. Certainly valid points. 

 

What's really concerning is the ease and dominance that Cinci beat the Bills in their own building. Hard to overlook, minimize, or excuse that despite the injuries you have mentioned. It was very clear the Bills didn't belong on the same field with the Bengals. Was it lack of talent? Surely that's part of it.

 

Secondly, it's hard to swallow how out coached and out schemed the Bills coaching staff was. To this day, I have no idea what they did differently from that Monday night game. They learned nothing from the Bengals two dominate drives? To put it bluntly, Fraizer and Dorsey got taken to the woodshed. Coach McD had no answers, a poor game plan, and little effective game time adjustments. The coaching staff equally lost this game. That really shouldn't be erased, acceptable, or diminished. Yet, Beane comes out and says he's not placing too much emphasis on one game. Go back and look what he's said in previous end of season pressers. He has repeatedly stated you are as good as your last game. That game will tell you what your weaknesses are and where you need to improve. Talk about a 180? How can we fans feel confident with such a glaring contradiction? 

[Billz4ever]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

This was Groot's 2nd season and we've seen some good improvement from him. Willing to give him more time.

 

Disagree on Ed completely. This was his 4th season and he has totally underperformed his draft position at the 9th overall pick.  I'm hoping we can trade him.

[Billz4ever]

5 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

That's another way to look at it. Certainly valid points. 

 

What's really concerning is the ease and dominance that Cinci beat the Bills in their own building. Hard to overlook, minimize, or excuse that despite the injuries you have mentioned. It was very clear the Bills didn't belong on the same field with the Bengals. Was it lack of talent? Surely that's part of it.

 

Secondly, it's hard to swallow how out coached and out schemed the Bills coaching staff was. To this day, I have no idea what they did differently from that Monday night game. They learned nothing from the Bengals two dominate drives? To put it bluntly, Fraizer and Dorsey got taken to the woodshed. Coach McD had no answers, a poor game plan, and little effective game time adjustments. The coaching staff equally lost this game. That really shouldn't be erased, acceptable, or diminished. Yet, Beane comes out and says he's not placing too much emphasis on one game. Go back and look what he's said in previous end of season pressers. He has repeatedly stated you are as good as your last game. That game will tell you what your weaknesses are and where you need to improve. Talk about a 180? How can we fans feel confident with such a glaring contradiction? 

Yep, outcoached is every aspect.

 

So, we stay with all the same coaches. What changes are they going to make from this embarrassment to when we play Cincy next season?  It's clear Frazier didn't do anything different from the 1st quarter of the Monday night game.

 

Is this like where you discipline your kid and tell them they made poor decisions and they promise to make better decisions in the future?

 

Frazier is one of the most inflexible coaches I've ever seen. Even when what he's doing clearly isn't working, he's slow to change things up.

 

 

[newcam2012]

20 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

Depends on your perspective and expectations. The Bills looked good statistically with regards to the regular season. They won 13 games and the AFC East title. Certainly there's a positive. They are a good team. 

 

 

The playoffs were a much different story. The Bills were very fortunate to beat the Dolphins. We know the Cinci story. To say the Bills fell short is a vast understatement. The way they lost should open up everyone's eyes. Did you hear a solid plan from Beane or McD?  My take is they are running it back with the same coaches and hoping for a healthy return of players while others improve. What did you hear? 

 

Are you are ok with nice regular season? A nice record and early playoff exits? That exactly what this regime has given us. Six years ago that was more than acceptable. Fast forward to today and I think its safe to say the standards have changed. Now is the time to seriously question whether the Beane McD regime has run its course. I believe they have earned another shot but my confidence they can progress is dwindling. 

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Depends on your perspective and expectations. The Bills looked good statistically with regards to the regular season. They won 13 games and the AFC East title. Certainly there's a positive. They are a good team. 

 

 

The playoffs were a much different story. The Bills were very fortunate to beat the Dolphins. We know the Cinci story. To say the Bills fell short is a vast understatement. The way they lost should open up everyone's eyes. Did you hear a solid plan from Beane or McD?  My take is they are running it back with the same coaches and hoping for a healthy return of players while others improve. What did you hear? 

 

Are you are ok with nice regular season? A nice record and early playoff exits? That exactly what this regime has given us. Six years ago that was more than acceptable. Fast forward to today and I think its safe to say the standards have changed. Now is the time to seriously question whether the Beane McD regime has run its course. I believe they have earned another shot but my confidence they can progress is dwindling. 

We've got a pretty brutal schedule next season, especially on the road.  We're going to find out pretty quick what this team is made of.  With what appears to be them making as few changes as possible, 13 wins next year may be a pipedream. Just making the postseason could be a struggle.

 

Home: Dolphins, Patriots, Jets, Broncos, Raiders, Cowboys, Giants, Buccaneers, Jaguars

Away: Chiefs, Chargers, Dolphins, Patriots, Jets, Eagles, Bengals, Commanders

[DCofNC]

I can understand looking at reality and saying, Dorsey wasn’t perfect, but we see potential, let’s let him run it back and get some more weapons for him.  
 

Kromer, major disappointment and I wonder if he got sent packing from LA because he’s great at an older approach and not getting the linemen where they need to be for a more wide open O.  Purely a 2 second thought here, but the line was not good… I could see him being gone.

 

Frazier, enough is enough.  Yes, the scheme works well enough to win games when the offense scores a lot, but it’s actually counter productive to the team success.  We want JA on the field, allowing teams to dink and dunk down the field and burn clock is NOT what we should strive for.  Go for the kill, if you get burned, cool Josh, go get ‘em.  If you get the ball back quicker, cool, Josh go get ‘em.  Waiting for a good team to screw up means you lose the time of possession game and ultimately your offense has to be perfect and quick to win.  It’s a bad formula for the post season.

 

Ultimately, we need to look at the formula overall.  You are a poor weather, outdoor team.  Relying on a finesse game to score and big bombs down the field to be converted is fun, and doable, in good weather or a dome.  As soon as the wind kicked up, snow flew and we had to play in the elements, the team began to struggle.  Does everyone think it coincidence that Josh starts off on fire and flames out every year (statistically)?  Or that many of his biggest games come on the road?   I’m not saying build a Ravens offense, but I’m saying you need to look at something like the Pats ran with Brady.  Quick hitters, the wind doesn’t bother, have a run game that can punch a team in the mouth and then when they try to take it away, go to the next level.   I don’t know about you, but I thought it worked pretty well for NE.   You could easily ask Diggs to play the Welker/Edelman role where he gets to do whatever the hell he wants, but mostly focus on the quick throws and gets fed the ball 15 targets a game.  Use Knox as a Gronk type.  If you destroy the middle of the field, they have to drop LBs back a bit and then you hit them with the runnning backs, who should be more the bully types.  How KC finds Pacheco that late in the draft for a battering Ram with 4.3 speed is beyond me, but we need a guy like him or a rookie year Karlos Williams, big punisher with enough juice to make a missed tackle into 15 yards.   We need to take a page from Bellicheck and dare I say it, Doug Whaley, get guys that are bigger and faster than the guys they are playing against.  Be Physical.  We don’t need dancing bears, we need Josh to have a pocket and we need some holes opened up for the RB between the tackles.  Speed rushers never were Brady’s problem, you just step out of their path, the real key is some hogs inside that don’t let Dick Grabber come right up in Josh’s grille every pass attempt.

58 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

Yeah no.  I’m not accepting the “we draft too late” excuse.  KC is drafting after us every year and keeps replenishing talent and whooping our ass in the playoffs.  It’s poor talent evaluation and poor use of resources. 

[First Round Bust]

15 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Not a surprise.

 

Kromer is one of the best o line coaches out there.  Get the guy some players.

starting with Spencer Brown...size, outstanding-extremely high RAS score (same with Doyle), a small school project taken early due those above average metrics, then factor in the back injury-surgery....as Beane mentioned in the post-season presser...there is some upside expect but Beano my good man..after two years he seems to have the Cody Ford slow feet syndrome as he cannot effectivley block the speed rushers from that right side, and last year when they moved him to left tackle to sub for Dawkins (due to COVID) he as even worse.

Onward to year three...is hoping for technique improvments past the point of no return ? esp since its been two years with one under Kromer with no improvement or even regression...necessitates another tackle pick this draft, with early to mid-round more of a focus, and if its for gods sake draft someone with quick feet.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

 

Well, I'd say this, that at the end of the day they're not cutting it.  

[Nextmanup]

I'm not a fan of Joe B.  He doesn't know more than you or I know.

 

By the way, don't read anything into that "year 2" reference at the press conference.

 

These guys are ALL, ALWAYS going to talk as though everyone in the organization is in it, and will be in it going forward....until they get canned the next day.

 

I do think we will NOT change any coordinators, and that is a mistake.

 

It will be magnified next year.

 

 

[HeHateMe]

They should absolutely move on from Frasier... I would seriously look at upgrading from Dorsey as well.  Josh needs a better offensive system to operate in and needs more support on the o-line and WRs..

 

Running it back with the same staff is so lame and seems like a punt.

[Billz4ever]

37 minutes ago, First Round Bust said:

starting with Spencer Brown...size, outstanding-extremely high RAS score (same with Doyle), a small school project taken early due those above average metrics, then factor in the back injury-surgery....as Beane mentioned in the post-season presser...there is some upside expect but Beano my good man..after two years he seems to have the Cody Ford slow feet syndrome as he cannot effectivley block the speed rushers from that right side, and last year when they moved him to left tackle to sub for Dawkins (due to COVID) he as even worse.

Onward to year three...is hoping for technique improvments past the point of no return ? esp since its been two years with one under Kromer with no improvement or even regression...necessitates another tackle pick this draft, with early to mid-round more of a focus, and if its for gods sake draft someone with quick feet.

Scary thought, but maybe Kromer is the main reason this line worked at all this season with the talent, or lack thereof that's there.  Kromer may have been making lemonade out of lemons all season and he's getting blamed now for the line looking bad, when he had them playing over their heads much of the season.