The misuse of Cook and Hines was borderline criminal

[buffblue]

7 hours ago, Logic said:

I know, I know, it's "everybody's fired up and venting on TSW" week. 

As I sit here this morning and read all of the talk of the Bills not surrounding Josh Allen with enough weapons, I'm getting irritated. Don't get me wrong, they could have used another good receiver because Davis and McKenzie didn't step up as hoped, and they obviously need OL reinforcements....BUT...

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

All offseason, it was clearly a top priority to add a pass catching back with speed. They ultimately drafted one with a high pick AND traded draft capital for a second one. Both guys, Cook and Hines, were ultimately wasted in an un-creative offense that seemed to completely refuse to utilize their unique talents. 

Ok, so you want to send Diggs and Davis deep every play? Fine. But for an offense that supposedly "lacks weapons underneath" and lacks weapons in general, the inability and refusal to use Cook and Hines as pass catching threats, or to use their speed to stretch the defense horizontally, or to provide pre-snap eye candy that gives the defense a moment of pause...it's just outrageous. You lack talent in the slot? Fine. How about splitting Nyheim Hines into the slot and actually using him as a receiver, not just a never-thrown-to decoy? You're telling me Cook and Hines can't consistently win routes against linebackers?!

Cook, Hines, and heck, even throw Isaiah McKenzie in there. All of these guys have speed, quickness, and can turn a 3 yard play into a 30 yard play with their explosiveness. Even if Dorsey had done nothing else but use them constantly in pre-snap motion (I think we saw this ONE WEEK with Hines, and then never again) and the occasional jet sweep, there HAS to be some value in having fast running backs who can catch the ball well. How about some Texas routes? How about literally ANYTHING designed to get these guys open in space?

The thing that worries me going forward is that even if the Bills DO add more potent offensive weapons, Dorsey won't have the faintest clue how to use them. He certainly didn't seem to know how to use Cook or Hines. Putting up 10 points in the most important game of the year while explosive guys like Hines and Cook largely ride the pine? Unacceptable. Ridiculous. Unconscionable. Here's hoping Dorsey takes a good, long look in the mirror this offseason and comes back much improved next year.

Outstanding post. Really makes you wonder about our coaches ability to develop and utilize the players we have

[Coach Tuesday]

18 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Just too vanilla in both the passing and running game. Josh was rarely throwing to open receivers, that is a scheme issue. When the Bills were at their best in the run game, they were running gap scheme stuff. The offensive felt like entry level vanilla Nate Hackett garbage. 

They had an incredibly tough time scheming guys open, no question. 

[hondo in seattle]

7 hours ago, Logic said:

I know, I know, it's "everybody's fired up and venting on TSW" week. 

As I sit here this morning and read all of the talk of the Bills not surrounding Josh Allen with enough weapons, I'm getting irritated. Don't get me wrong, they could have used another good receiver because Davis and McKenzie didn't step up as hoped, and they obviously need OL reinforcements....BUT...

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

All offseason, it was clearly a top priority to add a pass catching back with speed. They ultimately drafted one with a high pick AND traded draft capital for a second one. Both guys, Cook and Hines, were ultimately wasted in an un-creative offense that seemed to completely refuse to utilize their unique talents. 

Ok, so you want to send Diggs and Davis deep every play? Fine. But for an offense that supposedly "lacks weapons underneath" and lacks weapons in general, the inability and refusal to use Cook and Hines as pass catching threats, or to use their speed to stretch the defense horizontally, or to provide pre-snap eye candy that gives the defense a moment of pause...it's just outrageous. You lack talent in the slot? Fine. How about splitting Nyheim Hines into the slot and actually using him as a receiver, not just a never-thrown-to decoy? You're telling me Cook and Hines can't consistently win routes against linebackers?!

Cook, Hines, and heck, even throw Isaiah McKenzie in there. All of these guys have speed, quickness, and can turn a 3 yard play into a 30 yard play with their explosiveness. Even if Dorsey had done nothing else but use them constantly in pre-snap motion (I think we saw this ONE WEEK with Hines, and then never again) and the occasional jet sweep, there HAS to be some value in having fast running backs who can catch the ball well. How about some Texas routes? How about literally ANYTHING designed to get these guys open in space?

The thing that worries me going forward is that even if the Bills DO add more potent offensive weapons, Dorsey won't have the faintest clue how to use them. He certainly didn't seem to know how to use Cook or Hines. Putting up 10 points in the most important game of the year while explosive guys like Hines and Cook largely ride the pine? Unacceptable. Ridiculous. Unconscionable. Here's hoping Dorsey takes a good, long look in the mirror this offseason and comes back much improved next year.

 

If you don't have a good offensive line, you must have a good short passing game.  It does seem like we had decent weapons for Josh to throw short to.  We just didn't utilize them.   Hines in particular had 63 catches just a couple years ago.  He has hands that can catch and he has jets on his feet.  Dorsey schemes were hard to understand at times.

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, whorlnut said:

Is Dorsey to blame?  Partly. I put a lot of it on McD. He is the HC and why wasn’t he in Dorsey’s ear all week telling him to use those guys?  Maybe he was, but I can’t imagine Dorsey completely neglecting cook and Hines if his HC wasn’t demanding more out of them. 

Yes. Dorsey is to blame.

 

This is the biggest difference between Dorsey and Daboll.

 

People forget, Isiah McKenzie was nothing in the league until Daboll got a hold of him. He was a speedy flawed player, a fifth round pick cut from the team that drafted him.

 

What did Daboll do with a speedy threat on a team that only had John Brown as a burner?  He put him on the field. He put him in motion. He did end-arounds, end-around fakes to screen passes or runs the other way. He did the jet motion touch pass crap the Chiefs did with Hill. He added another wrinkle that defenses had to account for, and that they had to watch out for when rushing the passer. They crashed a little bit less hard think McKenzie could come around the edge and get 12 because of how fast he was.

 

McKenzie went from out of the league, to a gadget utility #5 WR.  He was used by his great OC to IMPROVE the offense. He didn't get the ball 100 times (nor was he annihilating defenses when he did), but he was a huge part of gameplans, of setting up things for later in the season, for slowing down pass rushers, etc.

 

What did Kenny D do with a similar player in Hines?  Swing routes, and check downs.  Zero motion. Zero threat to touch the ball.

 

When people talk about Andy Reid and KC, they talk so much about "scheming guys open."  Usually in the context of downfield.   Honestly, that gives too much credit to Reid, and too little to stars like Kelce.  What Andy Reid does VERY well is design plays that are EASY. Easy yards. The jet touch pass. Motioning McKinnon to pirouette in the backfield (who has taken on the gadget role from Tyreek) prior to catching a quick ball for 7 yards and a first.

 

This year, we have had no easy plays. No money plays.  We got yards and points because Josh is awesome. And that's why when you watch KC you see just how easy it is for them to create drives, and you watch our offense and it looks like they are trying to push a boulder 80 yards down the field.

 

Ken Dorsey sucks.  It sounds like they are keeping him, so I hope he gets better, because he actually sucks right now.

[whorlnut]

37 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yes. Dorsey is to blame.

 

This is the biggest difference between Dorsey and Daboll.

 

People forget, Isiah McKenzie was nothing in the league until Daboll got a hold of him. He was a speedy flawed player, a fifth round pick cut from the team that drafted him.

 

What did Daboll do with a speedy threat on a team that only had John Brown as a burner?  He put him on the field. He put him in motion. He did end-arounds, end-around fakes to screen passes or runs the other way. He did the jet motion touch pass crap the Chiefs did with Hill. He added another wrinkle that defenses had to account for, and that they had to watch out for when rushing the passer. They crashed a little bit less hard think McKenzie could come around the edge and get 12 because of how fast he was.

 

McKenzie went from out of the league, to a gadget utility #5 WR.  He was used by his great OC to IMPROVE the offense. He didn't get the ball 100 times (nor was he annihilating defenses when he did), but he was a huge part of gameplans, of setting up things for later in the season, for slowing down pass rushers, etc.

 

What did Kenny D do with a similar player in Hines?  Swing routes, and check downs.  Zero motion. Zero threat to touch the ball.

 

When people talk about Andy Reid and KC, they talk so much about "scheming guys open."  Usually in the context of downfield.   Honestly, that gives too much credit to Reid, and too little to stars like Kelce.  What Andy Reid does VERY well is design plays that are EASY. Easy yards. The jet touch pass. Motioning McKinnon to pirouette in the backfield (who has taken on the gadget role from Tyreek) prior to catching a quick ball for 7 yards and a first.

 

This year, we have had no easy plays. No money plays.  We got yards and points because Josh is awesome. And that's why when you watch KC you see just how easy it is for them to create drives, and you watch our offense and it looks like they are trying to push a boulder 80 yards down the field.

 

Ken Dorsey sucks.  It sounds like they are keeping him, so I hope he gets better, because he actually sucks right now.

You missed the point. If it was such a burning issue in meetings, then why didn’t McD step in and demand more of it? I too think Dorsey deserves some blame, however, McD is the HC and should be able to force it. Besides…if Dorsey was so much to blame and Incompetent, then why are they essentially endorsing him for a second season at OC?  

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

You missed the point. If it was such a burning issue in meetings, then why didn’t McD step in and demand more of it? I too think Dorsey deserves some blame, however, McD is the HC and should be able to force it. Besides…if Dorsey was so much to blame and Incompetent, then why are they essentially endorsing him for a second season at OC?  

Does this happen?  Did Andy Reid ever step in and make defensive changes if his defense was playing like crap?  Never ever heard of that happening in the NFL.  John Harbaugh didn't make Greg Roman change his offense.  They just fired him.  So I'm not sure where you're getting the "just force it man!"

 

They are endorsing Dorsey (lol) likely because Josh likes him, he runs an offense that Josh is comfortable with in regards to terminology, and because they think he can get better.

 

 

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Does this happen?  Did Andy Reid ever step in and make defensive changes if his defense was playing like crap?  Never ever heard of that happening in the NFL.  John Harbaugh didn't make Greg Roman change his offense.  They just fired him.  So I'm not sure where you're getting the "just force it man!"

 

They are endorsing Dorsey (lol) likely because Josh likes him, he runs an offense that Josh is comfortable with in regards to terminology, and because they think he can get better.

 

 

Oh ok…how did that work out when Frazier’s d wasn’t performing well and McD took over play calling duties one game early in his tenure?  The point is…the GM went and got Hines for a reason.  If they wanted him more involved, I can almost guarantee McD has those conversations with Dorsey. 

[FireChans]

Just now, whorlnut said:

Oh ok…how did that work out when Frazier’s d wasn’t performing well and McD took over play calling duties one game early in his tenure?  The point is…the GM went and got Hines for a reason.  If they wanted him more involved, I can almost guarantee McD has those conversations with Dorsey. 

So McD used to coach defense.  They run "his" defense. So him taking over defensive playcalls is not the same as taking over offensive playcalls.

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I think the porous OL required the RB to stay in to block on many plays.

well if they think you are looking to throw with 5 step drops repeatedly, of course they are coming , and of course O line needs help
 speaking of solid chip blocks ...

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

Unreal how this offense can't execute a screen. I started paying attention around week 8. Saw maybe 1 screen play go for more than 5 yards.  Good to have in the arsenal to help slow a pass rush. But who needs that?

 

I have been saying for years we should dust off those old Chan Gailey game films and copy some of those screens. Those were damn good screens and 

I'm sure Cook could rum them as well as Fred Jackson.   they still have them somewhere.  Maybe in a box next to Terry's Corvette.

 

 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 hours ago, Steptide said:

I saw this on Twitter last night. You think he can't figure it what to do with running backs? This is more concerning to me

 

 

that’s the worst option - back coming out has nobody, knox open in the seam. 
 

chosing the 11/10 difficulty throw instead of the layup … 😞 

[whorlnut]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

So McD used to coach defense.  They run "his" defense. So him taking over defensive playcalls is not the same as taking over offensive playcalls.

It’s funny that you think the offense is a free-for-all and McD has no input. It’s pretty bad if you really think this. 

[JaCrispy]

While I agree with the OP’s sentiment, are we sure part of the problem wasn’t Josh Allen?

 

I mean, how many times have people said guys were open underneath all season long, and Josh just ignored it for the low percentage big play?

 

I even recall Josh saying he doesn’t like handing off too much, or “ “dinking and dunking” down the field because he gets bored…This is a potential issue as sometimes a certain matchup will require him to do so, to be successful…

 

Is that kind of mentality another symptom of “Sugar High” Josh?  Is it a symptom of “Arm Arrogance”?

 

Either way I’m very curious to know if Josh Allen has the patience and (wisdom of the game) to be a championship QB…

 

One of the things that made Brady great, and what I saw from Burrow is they alway took the high percentage throws and kept the chains moving…I wanna see Josh show he’s capable of that, instead of throwing a 50 yard bomb on 3rd and 2…👍

[BillsFan130]

Translation: Dorsey Sucks.

 

Your post is spot on and I agree 100 percent 

[billsfan3482]

28 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I have been saying for years we should dust off those old Chan Gailey game films and copy some of those screens. Those were damn good screens and 

I'm sure Cook could rum them as well as Fred Jackson.   they still have them somewhere.  Maybe in a box next to Terry's Corvette.

 

 

 

 

 We can watch any game during the season, non bills related and say, wow look at that play, or why cant we run that or have it in our playoff.

If this is a copy cat league, he should be taking plays from every  game/team. Our offense is bland and uncreative.

 

I think Reich would be great.  He'd give us a run game and I think would work great with allen.

Edited January 26, 2023 by billsfan3482

[Mark Vader]

8 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You saw a screen?!? Gonna need a link because I dont even remember us attempting one.

 

Screens, slants, etc dont exist to Dorsey/Allen. The best way to beat a blitz and slow down a pass rush is to hold the ball for 5 seconds while you wait for plays to develop 40 yards downfield.

Does that pass to Beasley against the Dolphins that went for nearly 30 yards count as a screen, or was that a slant?

 

Either way, it was a thing of beauty. Made me wonder why we were never doing that.

[RocCityRoller]

maybe Hines is not found gold?

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

It’s funny that you think the offense is a free-for-all and McD has no input. It’s pretty bad if you really think this. 

I’m sure he is involved. I don’t think he can take over like he does on defense. Because he’s a defensive coach. And it’s his defense. It’s not his offense. He

doesnt have an offense

[steven50]

The process is to blame. The process means every player must be brought along slowly and methodically. Players have to be swapped in and out even when one is clearly having a much better game/season then the other etc.

 

The process is good for building a team up, not so much for that time of the year when a "there is no tomorrow" attitude is called for.

 

 

[Jeff1954]

Great post and really relevant points and questions raised in the discussion.

Does anybody know whether Dorsey is going to give a press conference so these questions can be asked of him?