The misuse of Cook and Hines was borderline criminal

[Sherlock Holmes]

33 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Not sure what happened with Hines
 

With cooki, when it was all said, and done, he was showing more as a runner than he was a passer

Well Cook didn't get many opportunities to throw the ball...the best passing RB hands down is McCaffery.

[colin]

Just now, Logic said:

See, but to me, the first two things you mention -- bad WR play and bad OL play -- are all the MORE reason to get your running backs going.

Like..."oh, our receivers are struggling? Our protection is bad, leading to Josh running for his life?"...those seem like the EXACT type of factors that would make you go "let's get the ball quickly to our speedy running backs in space and let them make plays.

I dunno, maybe I'm taking crazy pills.

 

crazy pills or not, you bring up a good point.  i think it came down to what they chose to spend time on, and it all went to fixing what could not be fixed.

 

it would also explain why allen went deep, cuz he doesn't have to worry about these clowns messing up a route.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Daboll/Dorsey couldn’t find a way to use 2 RBs and now we want Dorsey to use 3 RBs?

 

 

[Mango]

36 minutes ago, pigpen65 said:

Yeah it would have been cool to run some stuff on offense the Bengals had never seen before. Like change things up. Make game planning harder for them instead of doing everything exactly the same from game to game. I don't know, I'm no Dorsey. 

 

There were dozens of posters all season long that were convinced the Bills struggles on offense during the regular season was because they were saving it for the playoffs.

 

[BillsFanSD]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

 

There were dozens of posters all season long that were convinced the Bills struggles on offense during the regular season was because they were saving it for the playoffs.

 

I was getting irritated with the offense toward the end of the season, but I was one of those people who was hoping that maybe we were just holding back some wrinkles for use in the playoffs.  Nope, I was wrong.  There were no wrinkles.  

 

My opinion of Dorsey dropped quite a bit between the Miami and Cincinnati games.  I don't feel bad for giving him the benefit of the doubt (what was I supposed to do? -- it's not like he's under my control or anything) but I can certainly update my priors accordingly.

[Logic]

Just now, Mango said:

 

There were dozens of posters all season long that were convinced the Bills struggles on offense during the regular season was because they were saving it for the playoffs.
 

That ***** got out of control. 

People legitimately thought we were saving this excellent bag of tricks all season long, just to roll it out in the playoffs and shock our opponents. 

Preposterous.

Someone earlier mentioned a disconnect between Beane and the coaching staff with regard to use of personnel, and I think that hits the nail on the head pretty squarely.

Guys like Hines, Cook, and Shakir all had things to offer this offense -- and at times, these things were direly needed! -- and Dorsey just couldn't/wouldn't make it happen. And that's not even to mention the inability of Hodgins to get snaps on offense.

To have talent and speed like Hines and Cook, and to just NOT use it and have it sitting on your bench, shows a real lack of imagination and creativity and adaptability to personnel. It's very concerning.

[Sestak4ever]

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

That ***** got out of control. 

People legitimately thought we were saving this excellent bag of tricks all season long, just to roll it out in the playoffs and shock our opponents. 

Preposterous.

Someone earlier mentioned a disconnect between Beane and the coaching staff with regard to use of personnel, and I think that hits the nail on the head pretty squarely.

Guys like Hines, Cook, and Shakir all had things to offer this offense -- and at times, these things were direly needed! -- and Dorsey just couldn't/wouldn't make it happen. And that's not even to mention the inability of Hodgins to get snaps on offense.

To have talent and speed like Hines and Cook, and to just NOT use it and have it sitting on your bench, shows a real lack of imagination and creativity and adaptability to personnel. It's very concerning.

👍 100%

[DrDawkinstein]

45 minutes ago, ßookie_tech said:

Unreal how this offense can't execute a screen. I started paying attention around week 8. Saw maybe 1 screen play go for more than 5 yards.  Good to have in the arsenal to help slow a pass rush. But who needs that?

 

You saw a screen?!? Gonna need a link because I dont even remember us attempting one.

 

Screens, slants, etc dont exist to Dorsey/Allen. The best way to beat a blitz and slow down a pass rush is to hold the ball for 5 seconds while you wait for plays to develop 40 yards downfield.

[Logic]

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I think we just need to burn another 2nd on the pass-catching RB position, we'll get it right eventually.

Right. Just like we do on DEs. 👍🤦‍♂️

[Negan]

It would have been nice to use a screen game or something outside the box...

 

I remember we were using more toss sweeps earlier in the year, and that play seemed to be decent with Morse pulling, but it seems Dorsey got away from that which is quite mind boggling.

 

 

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You saw a screen?!? Gonna need a link because I dont even remember us attempting one.

 

Screens, slants, etc dont exist to Dorsey/Allen. The best way to beat a blitz and slow down a pass rush is to hold the ball for 5 seconds while you wait for plays to develop 40 yards downfield.

I saw a screen to Singletary late in the game and it had success, but Dorsey hardly at all called that play during the season.  

 

How about a Tightend screen to Knox who is ok after the catch and has worked in the past Dorsey!

Edited January 25, 2023 by Negan

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I know, I know, it's "everybody's fired up and venting on TSW" week. 

As I sit here this morning and read all of the talk of the Bills not surrounding Josh Allen with enough weapons, I'm getting irritated. Don't get me wrong, they could have used another good receiver because Davis and McKenzie didn't step up as hoped, and they obviously need OL reinforcements....BUT...

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

All offseason, it was clearly a top priority to add a pass catching back with speed. They ultimately drafted one with a high pick AND traded draft capital for a second one. Both guys, Cook and Hines, were ultimately wasted in an un-creative offense that seemed to completely refuse to utilize their unique talents. 

Ok, so you want to send Diggs and Davis deep every play? Fine. But for an offense that supposedly "lacks weapons underneath" and lacks weapons in general, the inability and refusal to use Cook and Hines as pass catching threats, or to use their speed to stretch the defense horizontally, or to provide pre-snap eye candy that gives the defense a moment of pause...it's just outrageous. You lack talent in the slot? Fine. How about splitting Nyheim Hines into the slot and actually using him as a receiver, not just a never-thrown-to decoy? You're telling me Cook and Hines can't consistently win routes against linebackers?!

Cook, Hines, and heck, even throw Isaiah McKenzie in there. All of these guys have speed, quickness, and can turn a 3 yard play into a 30 yard play with their explosiveness. Even if Dorsey had done nothing else but use them constantly in pre-snap motion (I think we saw this ONE WEEK with Hines, and then never again) and the occasional jet sweep, there HAS to be some value in having fast running backs who can catch the ball well. How about some Texas routes? How about literally ANYTHING designed to get these guys open in space?

The thing that worries me going forward is that even if the Bills DO add more potent offensive weapons, Dorsey won't have the faintest clue how to use them. He certainly didn't seem to know how to use Cook or Hines. Putting up 10 points in the most important game of the year while explosive guys like Hines and Cook largely ride the pine? Unacceptable. Ridiculous. Unconscionable. Here's hoping Dorsey takes a good, long look in the mirror this offseason and comes back much improved next year.

 

This is why when people say they haven't given Allen enough weapons, it's just not true, look around the league and you'll see teams would love to have Diggs/Knox/Davis/Cook/Hines/Shakir/Beasley, I just don't think Dorsey utilized them at all. There should have been so many designed plays for Cook/Hines and Knox but there wasn't much creativity imo. He gets a pass I guess for being new at this but I really hope there is alot more creativity if they keep him.

[Mango]

19 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

I was getting irritated with the offense toward the end of the season, but I was one of those people who was hoping that maybe we were just holding back some wrinkles for use in the playoffs.  Nope, I was wrong.  There were no wrinkles.  

 

My opinion of Dorsey dropped quite a bit between the Miami and Cincinnati games.  I don't feel bad for giving him the benefit of the doubt (what was I supposed to do? -- it's not like he's under my control or anything) but I can certainly update my priors accordingly.

 

 

I think some of the offense is on Allen. He is just so unwilling to get rid of the ball quickly and/or take what is underneath. None of the Bengals game is on Allen though. I am talking season at large.

Allen is a stud with some kinks. Ultimately it is Dorsey's job to reign him in and he didn't. I think there is also a little bit of "we have been figured out". Unsure how much of that is the offense or Allen himself. 

[Logic]

Just now, Negan said:

It would have been nice to use a screen game or something outside the box...

 

I remember we were using more toss sweeps earlier in the year, and that play seemed to be decent with Morse pulling, but it seems Dorsey got away from that which is quite mind boggling.

 

 

It just seemed like Dorsey used all three running backs the same way, which is to say, they either ran the ball (and the run game generally lacked creativity) or ran a basic curl or leaked into the backfield to be a checkdown option.

He didn't have a special package of plays for Cook and Hines, he didn't seem to have designed any plays whose goal was to get those players the ball in space. He didn't seem to have made any efforts to say "let's see if we can use these guys as receivers". He didn't go into any particular week saying "today, we're gonna give Hines 5-8 touches on offense in creative ways and see if he can spark our offense".

Ultimately, Dorsey just didn't seem to have any creative ideas up his sleeve to make use of two fast and talented players who can both catch the ball. ESPECIALLY on an offense that sends its receivers deep so often, their talent sure could have paid dividends if given time and opportunity on the field in more creative ways.

[damj]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

That pick needs to go to a backup defensive lineman and you know it. 

[Mango]

23 minutes ago, Logic said:

That ***** got out of control. 

People legitimately thought we were saving this excellent bag of tricks all season long, just to roll it out in the playoffs and shock our opponents. 

Preposterous.

Someone earlier mentioned a disconnect between Beane and the coaching staff with regard to use of personnel, and I think that hits the nail on the head pretty squarely.

Guys like Hines, Cook, and Shakir all had things to offer this offense -- and at times, these things were direly needed! -- and Dorsey just couldn't/wouldn't make it happen. And that's not even to mention the inability of Hodgins to get snaps on offense.

To have talent and speed like Hines and Cook, and to just NOT use it and have it sitting on your bench, shows a real lack of imagination and creativity and adaptability to personnel. It's very concerning.

 

We have been sitting receiving backs sense McD and Daboll got here. I am so perplexed by the constant need to go find it but never indicate any need/want for it. 

I have no idea if this is on Beane or coaching. 

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

 

This is why when people say they haven't given Allen enough weapons, it's just not true, look around the league and you'll see teams would love to have Diggs/Knox/Davis/Cook/Hines/Shakir/Beasley, I just don't think Dorsey utilized them at all. There should have been so many designed plays for Cook/Hines and Knox but there wasn't much creativity imo. He gets a pass I guess for being new at this but I really hope there is alot more creativity if they keep him.

Knox is another one.

Dawson Knox is talented enough to be the Bills de facto #2 receiver. 

People say the Bills didn't have a legitimate #2 receiver. Well guess what, all the years that Mahomes was rolling out excellent offenses with Tyreek Hill, ya know who their #2 receiver was? Travis Kelce! Knox may not be at Travis Kelce's level, but he's damned sure talented enough to operate as a featured passing game piece, and not just an afterthought, as he seems to be now.

Knox, Cook, Hines. Three talented players with valuable skillsets and the ability to help an offense. All either underused, poorly used, or not used at all. Maddening.

[gobills404]

50 minutes ago, Logic said:

It wasn’t 4 verts and the ball wasn’t supposed to go to Gabe. It was a great play design by Dorsey to get Knox open on the crosser but as usual Josh would rather go for the highlight play than the easy first down.

 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

Knox is another one.

Dawson Knox is talented enough to be the Bills de facto #2 receiver. 

People say the Bills didn't have a legitimate #2 receiver. Well guess what, all the years that Mahomes was rolling out excellent offenses with Tyreek Hill, ya know who their #2 receiver was? Travis Kelce! Knox may not be at Travis Kelce's level, but he's damned sure talented enough to operate as a featured passing game piece, and not just an afterthought, as he seems to be now.

Knox, Cook, Hines. Three talented players with valuable skillsets and the ability to help an offense. All either underused, poorly used, or not used at all. Maddening.

 

Can't agree more, scary thing is that we know this as fans how doesn't the OC?

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

It wasn’t 4 verts and the ball wasn’t supposed to go to Gabe. It was a great play design by Dorsey to get Knox open on the crosser but as usual Josh would rather go for the highlight play than the easy first down.

 

Yeah, I saw that All-22 angle where Knox is definitely open and with room to run. My meme is just poking fun. I agree that the play was there to be made and Josh didn't make it.

And don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely not absolving Josh of his contributions to the maddening offensive decisions throughout the season. There were many times this season where there were options open underneath for 1st downs and Josh instead went big play hunting. He definitely seemed to regress a bit this year with regard to situational awareness and taking what the defense gave him. Any offensive failures this season were NOT all on Dorsey, and Allen should be held accountable, too, as should the o-line, as should the receivers, etc, etc...

Nevertheless, my point in the OP still stands. Dorsey could and should have done more to make use of his talented and underused offensive weapons, Hines and Cook chief among them.