Who is your choice for DC?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

Resources in the draft and UFA have been devoted for several seasons now on the DL.  Lots of money spent there overseen by the HC.

 

As to the run defense, it began unraveling mid-season when they had everyone good  in the front 7:

 

Game 7 vs. GB: 208 yards on 31 carries

Game 8 at NYJ: 174 yards on 34 carries

Game 9 vs. MIN: 147 yards on 25 carries

Game 14 vs MIA: 188 yards on 25 carries

 

Something is amiss in how they run this scheme, which is irksome considering how much they invest there and supposed depth.  Many teams may run that scheme, but it doesn't require a 8-9 man DL rotation like McD's does.  

 

Eagles run an 8 guy rotation. 

[RyanC883]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Again, the Eagles aren't having any problems running the same defensive scheme. The difference is they have DUDES across their defensive line and we don't.

 

So you're saying it's a Bean, not a Frazier issue?  

 

Frazier needs to recognize he does not have the guys on the line and adapt.  Bean needs to get a better job finding guys.  

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I don't think a lot of people recognize how contingent that is on who you have in at those Safety positions. Losing Hyde hurt - there was considerable drop off with Jaquon Johnson in there - Demar started coming into his own when he took it over and you saw improvements in what we could call and how we could disguise looks each week but then he went out. If you're not a starter you're hardly getting any reps - it forces your hand to play more vanilla when you are having to start guys who don't regularly get reps throughout the week.

 

Again, I have tried explaining this before. Maybe they will take it better from you because you are not some upstart Brit who is self taught about the game  

[Buffalo Junction]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Eagles run an 8 guy rotation. 

And almost the entire rotation is former first rounders and probowlers. The amount of talent they have on the D-line is insane. It kind of makes one wonder about the talent difference and how to go about making a d-line rotation hyper effective. 

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Fair.  I've said before and I'll freely acknowledge, I struggle to see what's really happening on the field as far as coverage from the TV broadcast.  I can see things, but I need all-22 and sometimes several watches. 

 

One thing I think I saw repeatedly throughout the game, though, was the Bengals using motion to pull the D out of position and then running into the gap their motion helped to create.  Now, it may be that if the front were solid, that wouldn't have mattered, I don't know.  And it could be more a function of who we had in the backfield, not being able to play as a unit and adjust correctly when one defender moved.

 

You kind of hint at agreement with that when you mention the limitations the D faced by losing Hyde, then Hamlin.  Marlowe didn't cut it, and when Jaquan Johnson came in (roughly half the game) then Poyer went out, it was defensively over.

 

Do you disagree with this?

"One perception (or misperception) that I have, is that McDermott/Frazier's scheme depends upon having a couple of key pieces.

 

One is the piece Star Lotulelei was supposed to be but wasn't, but DaQuan Jones was, this season: the huge man who can hold the point of attack and move it back to anchor.  Those guys seem hard to find, and hard to have capable backups for.  Tim Settle was not that guy."

 

 

 

I would like to know this also, as I have searched and can not find information to this point.

This scheme relies on penetrators up front. McDermott/Frazier want to create disruption/havoc by having guys get upfield as quickly as possible on the snap of the ball in order to reset the line of scrimmage. Ironically, for as much as gets talked about us playing soft and not aggressive, this is a very aggressive philosophy to have. However, it can be very boom or bust because of the different levels you are creating (unless the entire DL wins - then you're just blowing the entire thing up). The thought process behind it is that even if one guy wins and gets into the backfield, it'll cause confusion for the ball carrier and could disrupt the blocking scheme. However, it could also create wider gaps depending on who wins and what concept the offense is running. The penetration is suppose to draw double teams in order for the backers to remain clean, but if your penetrators aren't winning then teams will just chip and work up to the second level (this is what we say a lot of in years past and why DaQuon has been the best thing for Edmunds). Now with the 1 tech position you're referring to you absolutely need a bigger bodied guy because he will be doubled every single play, but in an ideal world they are still looking for a big athlete (Jordan Phillips) who is quick off the ball and get penetrate. That position isn't a huge cog in what makes the thing go though.

 

As far as the motions - the four man front is a lot easier to manipulate with motions than the 3 man front because of the lack of balance. This is why you see Taron travel with motions so often even when we're in zone coverage because we're trying to avoid making him a box fitter in the run game (ideally he'd always be a C gap fitter - but this obviously isn't realistic). So yeah, we saw motions and movement, but nothing outside of what we've seen all season from opponents.

[Trock]

Let McD call the plays for a year.  

[Sherlock Holmes]

42 minutes ago, nosejob said:

Sorry I'm not up to date. Could you expand your answer by a word or two? Thanks

He was interim coach at Wisconsin.

[Coffeesforclosers]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again, I have tried explaining this before. Maybe they will take it better from you because you are not some upstart Brit who is self taught about the game  

 

You may be from the people's republic of limeychusetts Gunner, but on the whole we don't hold that accident against you. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This scheme relies on penetrators up front. McDermott/Frazier want to create disruption/havoc by having guys get upfield as quickly as possible on the snap of the ball in order to reset the line of scrimmage. Ironically, for as much as gets talked about us playing soft and not aggressive, this is a very aggressive philosophy to have. However, it can be very boom or bust because of the different levels you are creating (unless the entire DL wins - then you're just blowing the entire thing up). The thought process behind it is that even if one guy wins and gets into the backfield, it'll cause confusion for the ball carrier and could disrupt the blocking scheme. However, it could also create wider gaps depending on who wins and what concept the offense is running. The penetration is suppose to draw double teams in order for the backers to remain clean, but if your penetrators aren't winning then teams will just chip and work up to the second level (this is what we say a lot of in years past and why DaQuon has been the best thing for Edmunds). Now with the 1 tech position you're referring to you absolutely need a bigger bodied guy because he will be doubled every single play, but in an ideal world they are still looking for a big athlete (Jordan Phillips) who is quick off the ball and get penetrate. That position isn't a huge cog in what makes the thing go though.

 

As far as the motions - the four man front is a lot easier to manipulate with motions than the 3 man front because of the lack of balance. This is why you see Taron travel with motions so often even when we're in zone coverage because we're trying to avoid making him a box fitter in the run game (ideally he'd always be a C gap fitter - but this obviously isn't realistic). So yeah, we saw motions and movement, but nothing outside of what we've seen all season from opponents.

 

Which I think is partly why you have seen a switch back to the 3 man front (which at one point was very out of fashion, even Belichick went to a 4-3 for a spell), as the Shanahan system with the multiple motion guys has spread across the league. Indeed going back to our last game with San Fran in 2020 even Frazier and McDermott went to some bear front stuff in that game. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by GunnerBill

[HoofHearted]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Finally. Someone who watched the same football game I did. 

 

I hope you have better luck getting this message across then I have. You are 100% on the money. 

I won't lol. Bills fans are frustrated with another early exit in the post-season and want to see heads roll. I get it. It's a lot easier to point fingers and blame than it is to admit we just got beat by a better more physical team on Sunday.

Edited January 25, 2023 by HoofHearted

[GETTOTHE50]

just no more nickel please for the love of all things holy I can't take it anymore

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Leslie Frazier's contract is now up and if McDermott and Beane are smart, he will not be resigned. I personally would like Vic Fangio. He had solid defenses in San Francisco and Chicago when he was with both teams. He's older but would be one of my top choices

Fangio runs a 4-3 under disguised with 34 personnel… we don’t have 3-4  personnel 

 

I don’t think he’s coming here… he doesn’t have the guys to run what he wants effectively 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

just no more nickel please for the love of all things holy I can't take it anymore

 

We run "nickel" in the sense of our personnel but in a lot of our looks, especially on early downs, Taron basically plays as a linebacker. 

[MrEpsYtown]

Another guy I would not mind is Vance Joseph. Wilks, Flores, Joseph in that order for me. I feel McDermott will never hire a 3-4 guy like Fangio. Those other guys have coached in multiple schemes. Issue with Joseph is that I do not think Von is a big fan. 
 

But Wilks should be the guy

[HoofHearted]

22 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

So you're saying it's a Bean, not a Frazier issue?  

 

Frazier needs to recognize he does not have the guys on the line and adapt.  Bean needs to get a better job finding guys.  

I'm not in the building - I don't know specifically where the disconnect is. I know there's guys who are schematically being put in position to make plays and they aren't executing. Some of it can be traced back to technique issues, but some of it comes down to lack of size/strength/athleticism at times as well.

 

Find me the scheme that works without defensive linemen though. I'd be all ears for that one!

[BILLSINATL]

1 hour ago, nosejob said:

What has he been doing?

Interim HC for Wisconsin. Was/Is DC. Rumor was he is a canidate for DC job at Bama

[BillsVet]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Eagles run an 8 guy rotation. 

 

They also have a QB whose cap hit is under 2M this year.  It's doable to feature an expensive DL rotation, but not if you're paying the QB and skill players.

 

Buffalo can run the DL rotation because they skimp on skill players. 

[Beck Water]

45 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This scheme relies on penetrators up front. McDermott/Frazier want to create disruption/havoc by having guys get upfield as quickly as possible on the snap of the ball in order to reset the line of scrimmage. Ironically, for as much as gets talked about us playing soft and not aggressive, this is a very aggressive philosophy to have. However, it can be very boom or bust because of the different levels you are creating (unless the entire DL wins - then you're just blowing the entire thing up). The thought process behind it is that even if one guy wins and gets into the backfield, it'll cause confusion for the ball carrier and could disrupt the blocking scheme. However, it could also create wider gaps depending on who wins and what concept the offense is running. The penetration is suppose to draw double teams in order for the backers to remain clean, but if your penetrators aren't winning then teams will just chip and work up to the second level (this is what we say a lot of in years past and why DaQuon has been the best thing for Edmunds). Now with the 1 tech position you're referring to you absolutely need a bigger bodied guy because he will be doubled every single play, but in an ideal world they are still looking for a big athlete (Jordan Phillips) who is quick off the ball and get penetrate. That position isn't a huge cog in what makes the thing go though.

 

As far as the motions - the four man front is a lot easier to manipulate with motions than the 3 man front because of the lack of balance. This is why you see Taron travel with motions so often even when we're in zone coverage because we're trying to avoid making him a box fitter in the run game (ideally he'd always be a C gap fitter - but this obviously isn't realistic). So yeah, we saw motions and movement, but nothing outside of what we've seen all season from opponents.

 

I'm a little confused as to what your intended meaning is.  Are you saying the 1TDT position (DaQuan/Settle) isn't a big cog in what makes the thing go?

Or that Jordan Phillips (3TDT usually) isn't?

 

If it's nothing we haven't seen all season, how did Miami and how did the Bengals appear more able to exploit more motion in the run game?

Was it just because we weren't keeping the backers clean?

 

[Eastport bills]

3 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Leslie Frazier's contract is now up and if McDermott and Beane are smart, he will not be resigned. I personally would like Vic Fangio. He had solid defenses in San Francisco and Chicago when he was with both teams. He's older but would be one of my top choices

If he would come aboard that would be the guy. He’s like The Godfather to all the successful DCs . Brian Flores, although not much of a people person, would be the type of no nonsense,insistent on physicality coach that would be my next choice.

[BillsVet]

34 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I won't lol. Bills fans are frustrated with another early exit in the post-season and want to see heads roll. I get it. It's a lot easier to point fingers and blame than it is to admit we just got beat by a better more physical team on Sunday.

 

It's not merely an exit, it's a debilitating loss to a team that was dead last in the NFL in 2019 and went to the SB last year.  They've lapped Buffalo. 

 

Yes, some are calling for heads to roll, but others have wisely observed that much of this loss occurred in the off-season.  Targeting players who could not execute  has been an issue, particularly in UFA, for multiple off-seasons now.  

 

The frustration is not just over the loss, but that McBeane's plan has finally been revealed as inherently flawed.  You can't keep preaching process and then have a season end like that without some fall out.  The answers will not be easy, but they've escaped from making substantial changes to stick to that plan.   Those days are over after the past 2 playoff losses.