Jim Kubiak analysis in The Buffalo News (paywall) - the Bills o-line was horrible

[BuffaloRebound]

8 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

What if's he calling that because that's what he's good at. How many times have we seen josh miss open guys on short passes?

I think most of those misses are because the short pass is his 4th or 5th option and by then the pass rush is on him. How often does he miss when the ball is out of his hands quickly?  The bigger question is whether there’s anybody on the current Bills coaching staff Josh respects enough to listen to because right now Josh is a wild stallion relying only on his immense talent.  Somebody’s gotta reign him in and teach him how to play championship football. 

[dorquemada]

14 minutes ago, Dan said:

Quoted for truth. 
 

It seems they’ve been trying to get the right players to perfect the defensive scheme they installed 5 years ago.   But they don’t realize the league figured that scheme out long ago. Time to move on. 
 

Similar to the offense, they go figured out about week 4.  Dorsey didn’t adapt, and the line especially was exposed. 

 

Paraphrasing the line about Communism;

 

The Scheme Cannot Fail, It Can Only Be Failed

[Scott7975]

18 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

What if's he calling that because that's what he's good at. How many times have we seen josh miss open guys on short passes?

 

Josh was 11/15 throwing between behind the LoS and within 5 yards of the LoS against Cinci. 8/10 1 TD last week against Miami. Not all misses are on Josh either.  I can think of a couple on Cook for example that lead to INTs.  I can also think of some of the bad throws he has had that probably stick out in your mind but he completes short passes more than you think.  Josh can throw short just fine.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Scott7975

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

… and Dorsey was consistently outschemed. Allen was bad too, but the circumstances created by the o-line debacle account for some of that. https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/jim-kubiak-josh-allen-runs-out-of-the-magic-that-helped-cover-bills-deficienies/article_246b2c2c-9c37-11ed-a844-dba9b7f6ece2.html

 

 

 

All correct. And water is wet too. Seriously though the defense and the coaching is getting a lot of heat. The biggest problem on this football team is the hideous offensive line play.

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

I think most of those misses are because the short pass is his 4th or 5th option and by then the pass rush is on him. How often does he miss when the ball is out of his hands quickly?  The bigger question is whether there’s anybody on the current Bills coaching staff Josh respects enough to listen to because right now Josh is a wild stallion relying only on his immense talent.  Somebody’s gotta reign him in and teach him how to play championship football. 

Or he need to make this adjustment himself. He's a veteran in the league now, so he can go to the coaching staff himself. I love Josh Allen, but at some point you have to hold the only player on offense who touches the ball on every play accountable.

[Livinginthepast]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

It was the Jags game last year without the 3 turnovers and with a much better offense on the other side. Or for another example watch Mahomes against the Buccaneers in the Super Bowl. Any offense becomes dysfunctional when the OL is getting beaten that badly on most plays.

 

Another thing that frustrates me about this article is it made me realize how stale our defense has become. Frazier's scheme has gotten figured out and easy to counter. Lou Anurumo's versatile scheme had us reeling all game long.

 

Playoff games are won in the trenches and in coaching. We were totally outmatched in both on offense and defense.

Im convinced that if both Frazier and Dorsey had allowed  Josh and the defensive captain to call the plays on the field and taken the coaching out of the game entirely, the results would have been better.  Both the coordinators were outcoached and outwitted by their opposite numbers. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Livinginthepast

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I really don't want to die on the "Josh Allen Sucks" hill, because I love the guy and how he plays. But he does have trouble hitting receivers in stride on short routes. I just watched Joe Burrow Tom Brady us to death with 5 yard passes with YAC and I was left wondering if Josh is willing or able to play like that. I wonder that because it's what wins in the biggest games. Mahomes plays the same way, but he's flashier doing it. To put a finer point on it, I can't think of an offense that won the SB that was as dependent on the deep passing game as the Bills are. 

 

*ding*ding*ding*ding

Willing

 

It's true that Josh struggled a bit in the first weeks after his elbow injury, when he had to revert to his previous throwing motion.  But it's not generally true, and hasn't been since 2019.

 

Something is off with either play design, or how Josh was being coached, this season.  It's like when Daboll left the building and Dorsey moved upstairs, they were all scared to ruin the "special plays Josh can make" if they got in his grill and told him to take the open checkdowns and let his guys get YAC, and no one was left who would rein him in. 

 

I will say this, to my eyes a lot of the season the intermediate options were lacking.  Teams were flooding the middle of the field and giving Josh only the short checkdown or the deep shot.  But it's not that he can't hit those short checkdowns, it's that he won't. 

 

Except that he did, last season, and even in some games this season.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Beck Water

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

All correct. And water is wet too. Seriously though the defense and the coaching is getting a lot of heat. The biggest problem on this football team is the hideous offensive line play.

 

Allen and the playcalling are a close second.  Here's another analysis with no paywall:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2023/lou-anarumo-cincinnatis-defensive-wizard

[Scott7975]

11 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I really don't want to die on the "Josh Allen Sucks" hill, because I love the guy and how he plays. But he does have trouble hitting receivers in stride on short routes. I just watched Joe Burrow Tom Brady us to death with 5 yard passes with YAC and I was left wondering if Josh is willing or able to play like that. I wonder that because it's what wins in the biggest games. Mahomes plays the same way, but he's flashier doing it. To put a finer point on it, I can't think of an offense that won the SB that was as dependent on the deep passing game as the Bills are. 

 

Because those guys werent being covered.  Our DBs played off in zone and left huge holes in the zones that the receivers for the Bengals set up in.  Our receivers were covered like glue most of the game.

[Low Positive]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

 

Because those guys werent being covered.  Our DBs played off in zone and left huge holes in the zones that the receivers for the Bengals set up in.  Our receivers were covered like glue most of the game.

That's the adjustment that the Bengals made midseason to mitigate their own poor OL play. The Bills kept taking 7 step drops.

[ddaryl]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, obviously you do or you wouldn't type it, but it's kind of hard to have a discussion if you don't provide evidence or examples to bolster what you say.

 

I watch Cover1 film breakdowns, I read Jim Kubiak's QB analysis which includes film breakdowns, anything other guys put out like Kurt Warner or Brett Kollman, I subscribed to NFL+ premium and watched all-22 myself about halfway through the season, I'm not a football guru but

1) that's not what I see

2) that's not what people who know ball and break down the film (see above) are saying.

 

A lot of times when Allen did scramble, it was to the outside, not up the middle.

 

 

 

Where were all the short crossing patterrns, where were the quick slants.. They were very rare. Our screen game was mostly to the outside. How many dump offs did we see between the hashmarks?

I too watched film and yes there were players open on the shorter routes but most time they were off to sides. Lots of tiimes we had 3 WRs 15 to 20 yards down field

this was by design so I ask why? You think Allen is incapable of throwing short? Allen was not getting the ball out quick enough and took a lot of sacks this year. Our OL is below average, but he was also waiting for plays to develop and while he was waiting pressure came and he either fired the long ball or took the sack. A good OC would have better designed outlets... Our dsesigned outlet was Allen scambles and that was shut down.  

I started asking about crossing patterns and quick slants mid season and it never changed.

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

Or he need to make this adjustment himself. He's a veteran in the league now, so he can go to the coaching staff himself. I love Josh Allen, but at some point you have to hold the only player on offense who touches the ball on every play accountable.

 

There's some validity to this, but there's also a valid point that one purpose of the coaching staff is to bring the best performance out of the players, help set them up and enable them to perform, and provide the insight of an external observer.  If the offensive coaching staff isn't doing this, then what are they doing?

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Allen and the playcalling are a close second.  Here's another analysis with no paywall:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2023/lou-anarumo-cincinnatis-defensive-wizard

 

They were allowed to get away too long being a "station to station" offense. It came back to bite them on Sunday, for sure. 

[Low Positive]

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

There's some validity to this, but there's also a valid point that one purpose of the coaching staff is to bring the best performance out of the players, help set them up and enable them to perform, and provide the insight of an external observer.  If the offensive coaching staff isn't doing this, then what are they doing?

The problem may be that one of Josh's best friends in the building is the OC who's supposed to coach him.

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They were allowed to get away too long being a "station to station" offense. It came back to bite them on Sunday, for sure. 

 

Agreed.  But a lot of that is on Allen.  Look at that first clip, the first play of the game, Allen doesn't even bother to check the defense pre-snap (part of that is because Dorsey takes too long to get the plays in).  Had he surveyed the defense he would've seen they were taking away McKenzie and would've pumped to him and then fed Motor on the dumpoff to the backside which could've gone to the bloody house.

[BuffaloRebound]

6 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

Or he need to make this adjustment himself. He's a veteran in the league now, so he can go to the coaching staff himself. I love Josh Allen, but at some point you have to hold the only player on offense who touches the ball on every play accountable.

I mean that’s a lot to ask.  Elway needed Shanahan to show him the way.  Elway is my favorite comp to Allen because there’s nothing on a football field those 2 couldn’t do.  They could beat most teams just winging it, but need more structure to take the next step. Cincy was scheming up blitzes on almost every play.  Could they have done that if we were pushing them around with a power run game?  The Ravens were pounding it down their throats so much that they had to take Hendrickson off the field.  

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I don’t know what more Allen can do honestly. He’s the only player I ever forgive for this offense 

He can't do it all nor should be expected to. He's sometimes reckless but again thats because he's forced to be Superman.  He has one of the worst OL's in the NFL ranked around 27-28.  Our run game is a joke. Our WR2 is struggling.  Our TE is hardly elite. McD & Beane have failed our generational qb in every possible way.

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

That's the adjustment that the Bengals made midseason to mitigate their own poor OL play. The Bills kept taking 7 step drops.

 

 

3, 5, and 7 step drops apply to play from under center. 

 

The Bills run >70% of their offensive plays from shotgun

 

I don't watch that many Bengals games, but from what I have watched, they have always run a short rhythm passing game

Zac Taylor came from the LA Rams.  That short rhythm passing game bolstered by a strong run game seems to have been a McVay/Shanahan staple.

 

 

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

The problem may be that one of Josh's best friends in the building is the OC who's supposed to coach him.

 

Could be, although from things Josh has said in interviews (including his day-after presser) he has implied that he knows he is not running the offense the way Dorsey designed or intended it to be run at times.  And Daboll and Allen were clearly also very very close.

 

Whatever the answer, I agree with what I see as your underlying point that for some reason, coaching of Josh is lacking this year.  Perhaps Daboll was more able to say things in a way that Josh was willing to hear, or more able/willing to get in his grill as necessary.

 

I have the impression that Dorsey may not have a "middle ground" between over-the-top "Holy Spirit Comes Out of Him" yelling and patient "learning experience"

 

It also sounds to me that perhaps we can agree that despite the good numbers, overall the offense did NOT operate as smoothly and efficiently this year as last.

[HOUSE]

1 hour ago, Sargent Hulka said:

No, that O-line sucked all year. Allen's impressive running skills hid it. That was taken away in the playoffs.

You took me seriously, hey guys I got one