Sean McDermott vs Sean Payton

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, LeviF said:

Payton turned Brees into a HOFer. 

 

Sean McDermott is turning Josh Allen into Dan Marino 2.0.

 

Be honest, do you think Brees and Josh Allen are the same, talent-wise?

Dan Marino is a Hall of Famer and considered the best passer of all time lol

 

You’re acting like he was Brian Brohm lol

[LeviF]

49 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Dan Marino is a Hall of Famer and considered the best passer of all time lol

 

You’re acting like he was Brian Brohm lol

this point is not hard to get. 
 

how many rings does Marino have despite the talent that I already said he had?

 

That is my point. Marino and josh so far = generational talents wasting away on inferior teams 

[Buffalo716]

Just now, LeviF said:

this point is not hard to get. 
 

how many rings does Marino have despite the talent that I already said he had?

 

That is my point. Marino and josh so far = generational talents wasting away on inferior teams 

The 90s bills teams were loaded and have none 

 

sometimes it takes as much luck as talent unfortunately 

[Nextmanup]

6 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

Grass is always greener on the other side for some...

If/when we bow out of the playoffs another year or 2 leading to coaching changes, all the "you guys are nuts!" people will be the FIRST to say, "This was justified; good decision by the franchise; need a new voice in the locker room."

 

LOL

 

It's just that some of us are a bit ahead of the slower fans.

 

 

[LeviF]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

The 90s bills teams were loaded and have none 

 

sometimes it takes as much luck as talent unfortunately 

Yeah, maybe. But I have a forbidden take on Jim Kelly and Marino and a hypothetical where the Bills are a proper dynasty in the late 80s/early 90s. 
 

Of course the NFC was a buzzsaw back then. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

38 minutes ago, LeviF said:

this point is not hard to get. 
 

how many rings does Marino have despite the talent that I already said he had?

 

That is my point. Marino and josh so far = generational talents wasting away on inferior teams 

 

Yes it is hard to get as makes little sense.  First comparing QB's has little to do with how good the coach is or isn't. I guess Brian Billick must be the greatest coach of all time as he turned Trent Dillfer into SB winning QB.

 

So are you saying Miami didn't win any because Marino was no good or Shula was no good.  How exactly did Marino become this loser?   Was it his fault or coaching?  Either one of them, you're wrong on as both were excellent.  There was probably more questions on how good Allen would be coming out of college than Brees.  Allen was doing pretty well under Daboll, so maybe Dorsey is turning him into mush, but not McD.  OK so you can blame McD for hiring Dorsey but he was the consensus  favorite for the job.  He had very little if anything to do with Allen's development good or bad as he's a defensive coach.

 

If you want to compare coaches, compare their record which are pretty much the same.  You want a different coach and think McD isn't very good. OK can't argue with that, but don't try and show that Peyton is any better. 

 

What you could have said and would be true so far:  McDermott is Peyton 2.0  That would be a fair assessment.

[LeviF]

2 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Yes it is hard to get as makes little sense.  First comparing QB's has little to do with how good the coach is or isn't. I guess Brian Billick must be the greatest coach of all time as he turned Trent Dillfer into SB winning QB.

 

So are you saying Miami didn't win any because Marino was no good or Shula was no good.  How exactly did Marino become this loser?   Was it his fault or coaching?  Either one of them, you're wrong on as both were excellent.  There was probably more questions on how good Allen would be coming out of college than Brees.  Allen was doing pretty well under Daboll, so maybe Dorsey is turning him into mush, but not McD.  OK so you can blame McD for hiring Dorsey but he was the consensus  favorite for the job.  He had very little if anything to do with Allen's development good or bad as he's a defensive coach.

 

If you want to compare coaches, compare their record which are pretty much the same.  You want a different coach and think McD isn't very good. OK can't argue with that, but don't try and show that Peyton is any better. 

 

What you could have said and would be true so far:  McDermott is Peyton 2.0  That would be a fair assessment.

Maybe it’s the coaching. Maybe it’s not. But my point, as quoted by you above, is that Josh Allen is a generational talent wasted on an inferior team, much like Marino was. We can quibble whether Shula outlasted his usefulness in the league but it’s undeniable that Marino’s career did not pay off for the dolphins the way everyone expected it to, especially after the 1984 season. 
 

Miami had an inferior roster compared to other good teams of the 80s and 90s. So do the Bills now. I can lay two big playoff losses squarely at the feet of McDermott. These are not in dispute. 
 

If McD has nothing to do with Josh’s development, maybe it’s time the Bills actually hired someone who can take a little responsibility for the offense. 

[ghostwriter]

How many Super Bowls did he win with Brees? 

[JerseyBills]

McD is untouchable 

Just stop it. 

We need better coordinators 

Frazier gave up 40+ last year..

If it was competitive,would have gave up 30+ this year

 

Bring on some elite coordinators and call it a day

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

26 minutes ago, LeviF said:

Maybe it’s the coaching. Maybe it’s not. But my point, as quoted by you above, is that Josh Allen is a generational talent wasted on an inferior team, much like Marino was. We can quibble whether Shula outlasted his usefulness in the league but it’s undeniable that Marino’s career did not pay off for the dolphins the way everyone expected it to, especially after the 1984 season. 
 

Miami had an inferior roster compared to other good teams of the 80s and 90s. So do the Bills now. I can lay two big playoff losses squarely at the feet of McDermott. These are not in dispute. 
 

If McD has nothing to do with Josh’s development, maybe it’s time the Bills actually hired someone who can take a little responsibility for the offense. 

 

OK don't disagree with any of what you're saying, bu this thread was started to say Peyton isn't all that great of a choice which I agree with.  You want to make changes, find someone better than Peyton is my argument.

 

There's also a lot of these hot offensive minds who they made head coaches who are now on the unemployment line too, great as a coordinator, but failed as a HC.  A better option may be to keep McD as head coach, but get one of these offensive wizes to be the OC.

 

I also think your argument about Marino stems quite a bit on luck more than an inferior team, being at the right place at the right time avoiding injuries, getting the right match up in playoffs and all of a sudden you won the SB.  Meanwhile a deserving team never gets a crack at it.  Did Marino have an inferior team or just at the wrong place at the wrong time?  Excluding the one year the Bills went to the SB as the wild card, I think they won the division 6 out of 7 years straight so Marino was in a dog fight every year right in the prime of his career.  Was it really an inferior team or were they both great teams but just that the Bills were a little better?

 

Add to that when you have a generational talent who is paid top $$ in today's NFL it's hard to get a strong enough team around him. Manning, Rodgers, Brees all of them only won one SB (Elway twice) as is hard to build that team around them.  The team will win every year and potentially be in the running to win it all, but only one time they were at the right place at the right time and won it all.  How did Brady manage to win them all, who knows, maybe it was all on cheating??  Bengals also were helped a lot by being really terrible for a long time and having a number of top 10 draft picks, where the Bills were never quite that bad in the past 40 years.

[BLeonard]

Personally, I don't see what is so great about Payton.  Yes, he's won A (single) Super Bowl, but he's also lost in 2 NFC Championship games, lost in the Divisional round 4 times and lost in the Wild Card round twice.  On top of that, he's had 5 seasons finishing at .500 or below.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that no head coach in NFL history has won a Super Bowl with two different teams.  Could Payton be the first?  Sure.  But, I certainly wouldn't be giving up first round draft picks for the guy.

 

I can only speak for me, but I'm not ready to give up on McDermott yet.  That said, something has to change on defense.  The "bend but don't break" simply doesn't get it done in the postseason.  From what I understand, Frazier's contract expires, so you don't even have to "fire" him, just don't renew and get someone in here that attacks on defense.  If McDermott is unable or unwilling to make adjustments, then he may be the next one that needs to be shown the door.

[ghostwriter]

46 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

McD is untouchable 

Just stop it. 

We need better coordinators 

Frazier gave up 40+ last year..

If it was competitive,would have gave up 30+ this year

 

Bring on some elite coordinators and call it a day

I find it aggravating that Frazier gets all the heat but we quickly forget that defense is McD’s forte. The buck should stop with him. I understand it if McD doesn’t quite understand our offensive woes but defense? C’mon, that’s weak.

 

Btw, Payton is a terrible choice. If you want a coach from an offensive background you want either Brian Callahan or Frank Reich. Payton only won one ring with HOF QB Drew Brees and he had him for two decades.

[Chicken Boo]

Payton has a Super Bowl victory, no?

 

What are we talking about?  

 

A lot of Payton's shortcomings record-wise were Drew Brees and his turnovers, that everyone likes to gloss over.  

 

*On a side note, it would be nice to see Cook utilized in a Kamara role, like his talent warrants.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Chaos said:

Lets stipulate the Bills "were in the same bracket".  HOw do you explain choking or getting stomped in every single end of season game?

 

Aren't they the only two ways to lose? They lose a close one you can call it choking they lose big you can call it a stomping? 

 

But my point is more that as good of a coach as Payton is he has lost playoff games to teams the Saints were definitely more talented than. McDermott's Bills have always lost to teams where you went in saying it was close to a 50/50 game. 

8 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

If/when we bow out of the playoffs another year or 2 leading to coaching changes, all the "you guys are nuts!" people will be the FIRST to say, "This was justified; good decision by the franchise; need a new voice in the locker room."

 

LOL

 

It's just that some of us are a bit ahead of the slower fans.

 

That may be true. I don't think this regime should be fired now. I can see a route to me being there in a year's time, but I can see a route to me still thinking in a year's time that they should remain. 

 

Everyone has a time. That doesn't mean I believe this regime's time is now. I also don't think anyone is crazy for thinking it is.... but I do think it is an overreaction.

[Chaos]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Aren't they the only two ways to lose? They lose a close one you can call it choking they lose big you can call it a stomping? 

 

But my point is more that as good of a coach as Payton is he has lost playoff games to teams the Saints were definitely more talented than. McDermott's Bills have always lost to teams where you went in saying it was close to a 50/50 game. 

 

That may be true. I don't think this regime should be fired now. I can see a route to me being there in a year's time, but I can see a route to me still thinking in a year's time that they should remain. 

 

Everyone has a time. That doesn't mean I believe this regime's time is now. I also don't think anyone is crazy for thinking it is.... but I do think it is an overreaction.

are you seriously suggesting 13 seconds was just a close lose, and not a choke? 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

are you seriously suggesting 13 seconds was just a close lose, and not a choke? 

 

Nope. But good attempt to build a straw man. 

[nucci]

Payton is a bit overrrated. Remember he used to take Brees off the field on 3rd downs and put in Hill

[Dopey]

I’ll take the wrestler every time. 

[Mr. WEO]

As a HC, Payton is Mike McCarthy