Joe Marino Breakdown

[newcam2012]

Folks here is a great listen. Honest and straight forward. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by newcam2012
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[Brand J]

He’s usually been a bit of a homer and valued players more than their worth, but I thought he hit it all on the head here. 

[LABILLBACKER]

Good synopsis...really the only things I disagreed on was he was a little easy on the OL.  And looks like he's willing to give Dorsey a sophomore season.  If this organization doesn't emphasize the offense on both FA & the draft it will waste another year of our generational qb.

[LifeLongBillsFan]

4 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Folks here is a great listen. Honest and straight forward. 

 

 

 
Nice summary and perspective.

I love the how he feels grateful - alway be grateful … it will set you mind up for success.

 

[BobbyC81]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Good synopsis...really the only things I disagreed on was he was a little easy on the OL.  And looks like he's willing to give Dorsey a sophomore season.  If this organization doesn't emphasize the offense on both FA & the draft it will waste another year of our generational qb.

But the defensive line still wasn’t good enough.  They’re also going to need a safety since Poyer will probably leave and we don’t know when or if Hamlin will come back.  If Edmunds leaves, you need a LB, unless they’re satisfied with Dodson, Bernard and Spector.  CB may be the only defensive position not needing reenforcements, with Tre expected to return closer to his past and the 2 rooks to go with Jackson and Johnson.

Edited January 24, 2023 by BobbyC81

[Utah John]

It's natural after a playoff loss to be looking at what's not good enough, but it would be good to review the things that went well also. 

 

Which veteran players were better than previous years, or better than expectations?  Miller turned out to be pretty good punter, and Bass has been rock solid, getting better and better each year.  Mitch Morse continues to play well.  Matt Milano has turned into a real star, and the Bills did well to sign him already for a team friendly salary.  Knox became a better receiver and a better blocker, and I'm glad he's on the team.  Rousseau had a better year than last year.  Hines had a few big players on ST but never got integrated into the O.  DaQuan Jones was usually our best D lineman not named Von Miller.  Unfortunately that's about it for the good news. 

 

As for players who didn't improve, Allen was injured and he had to screw around with his throwing motion, which really did hurt his passing.  At the end of the year, teams spied Allen and suddenly he couldn't break off those runs, and at the same time he started missing easy throws he always makes.  (The overthrow to Diggs on the Bills first possession of the Bengals game showed that Allen is just not himself.  I think the Bills would still have lost if they had scored on that play, which was right there for the taking, but you've got to take the chances that come your way.)  Diggs did not disappoint.  His production was down largely because Gabe Davis sucked so much and Allen struggled from time to time, but Diggs was always there, getting open and making catches. 

 

Which draft picks worked out?  I think Elam was meh, not a star at least not yet, but he was playing in a very unsettled secondary.  He could turn into a consistent, long-term JAG, but that's about it.  Cook got better and better through the season, but he's so small I'm concerned he's at risk for injury -- and his game is all about quickness so if he wrecks a knee and loses even a little bit, he's done.  Shakir and Benford, also good.  I don't know if Shakir will ever be a serious threat but he's better than any of our other options for WR3.  (Wouldn't it be nice to have Isaiah Hodgins?  Look what he did with the Giants when he got his opportunity.)  Terrel Bernard -- I had to look him up, he was so invisible this year. A third rounder.  Jeez. And Matt Araiza, also jeez. Wasn't there another O lineman we could have drafted for depth with that pick?  We got a perfectly good punter off the street.  Oh yeah, Luke Tenuta was a O lineman.  He couldn't stick with the Bills OR the Colts, and he's barely playing for the Packers.

 

Overall, is that a good enough draft?  I just don't think so. 

 

As for disappoinments, there's a long list.  Gabe Davis is at the top.  I think he must have had at least one dropped pass in every game, but some of that is down to having to make contested catches because he's so bad at getting separation.  Ed Oliver continues to vanish completely sometimes for entire games.  Edmunds is doing what Frazier wants, taking up space, but he's a responsive player who chases down the opponent after the opponent makes a play.  He is NOT a threat to make plays for a loss, or to stop an RB in the hole before he gets the first down.  Maybe he could be that guy, with a different D scheme under a different D coordinator. Jordan Poyer, man, hats off to him for holding things together when he wasn't injured, but (a) he WAS injured a lot, and (b) that's not surprising considering his age, and (c) even when he was there, he wasn't as good as last year.  Hyde's absence probably had a lot to do with it.  

 

Finally, the coaching was less good than last year.  Teams have been figuring the Bills out for a couple of years.  The D is the same as always, so other teams have figured out how to attack it.  And on offense, other teams have figured out our pass routes and are playing to stop what we do best.  And they have all seen how helpful it is to spy Allen, as I mentioned.  Where's the innovation on either D or O?

 

It's going to be tough to stay on top of the AFCE.  The Dolphins are getting better, and if they replace Tua with Lamar Jackson, holy crap that's going to be hard to stop.  The Jets D is excellent but the Jets are still the Jets so they keep on screwing things up.  The Pats are stuck in pretty-good land, not good enough to make the playoffs but good enough to be a tough out, and never drafting high enough.  All things considered we're probably looking at 10-12 wins a year for the next few  seasons.   We'll make the playoffs but will never get a top seed, and will be on the road at KC or Cincy or the Chargers, who will continue to improve despite their many boneheaded moves.  

 

I'm 67 and it's beginning to dawn on me that I will NEVER see the Bills win a Lombardi during my lifetime.  2021 was the year.  The 13 seconds took away the best chance we'll ever have with Allen and the McDermott staff.  From here on, we'll have a good team but a slowly deteriorating one. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 hour ago, BobbyC81 said:

But the defensive line still wasn’t good enough.  They’re also going to need a safety since Poyer will probably leave and we don’t know when or if Hamlin will come back.  If Edmunds leaves, you need a LB, unless they’re satisfied with Dodson, Bernard and Spector.  CB may be the only defensive position not needing reenforcements, with Tre expected to return closer to his past and the 2 rooks to go with Jackson and Johnson.

Forget the defense. Let it suck. It does anyway against competent offenses. All resources to the offense or it's a failed off-season 

[Mopreme]

3 hours ago, Utah John said:

It's natural after a playoff loss to be looking at what's not good enough, but it would be good to review the things that went well also. 

 

Which veteran players were better than previous years, or better than expectations?  Miller turned out to be pretty good punter, and Bass has been rock solid, getting better and better each year.  Mitch Morse continues to play well.  Matt Milano has turned into a real star, and the Bills did well to sign him already for a team friendly salary.  Knox became a better receiver and a better blocker, and I'm glad he's on the team.  Rousseau had a better year than last year.  Hines had a few big players on ST but never got integrated into the O.  DaQuan Jones was usually our best D lineman not named Von Miller.  Unfortunately that's about it for the good news. 

 

As for players who didn't improve, Allen was injured and he had to screw around with his throwing motion, which really did hurt his passing.  At the end of the year, teams spied Allen and suddenly he couldn't break off those runs, and at the same time he started missing easy throws he always makes.  (The overthrow to Diggs on the Bills first possession of the Bengals game showed that Allen is just not himself.  I think the Bills would still have lost if they had scored on that play, which was right there for the taking, but you've got to take the chances that come your way.)  Diggs did not disappoint.  His production was down largely because Gabe Davis sucked so much and Allen struggled from time to time, but Diggs was always there, getting open and making catches. 

 

Which draft picks worked out?  I think Elam was meh, not a star at least not yet, but he was playing in a very unsettled secondary.  He could turn into a consistent, long-term JAG, but that's about it.  Cook got better and better through the season, but he's so small I'm concerned he's at risk for injury -- and his game is all about quickness so if he wrecks a knee and loses even a little bit, he's done.  Shakir and Benford, also good.  I don't know if Shakir will ever be a serious threat but he's better than any of our other options for WR3.  (Wouldn't it be nice to have Isaiah Hodgins?  Look what he did with the Giants when he got his opportunity.)  Terrel Bernard -- I had to look him up, he was so invisible this year. A third rounder.  Jeez. And Matt Araiza, also jeez. Wasn't there another O lineman we could have drafted for depth with that pick?  We got a perfectly good punter off the street.  Oh yeah, Luke Tenuta was a O lineman.  He couldn't stick with the Bills OR the Colts, and he's barely playing for the Packers.

 

Overall, is that a good enough draft?  I just don't think so. 

 

As for disappoinments, there's a long list.  Gabe Davis is at the top.  I think he must have had at least one dropped pass in every game, but some of that is down to having to make contested catches because he's so bad at getting separation.  Ed Oliver continues to vanish completely sometimes for entire games.  Edmunds is doing what Frazier wants, taking up space, but he's a responsive player who chases down the opponent after the opponent makes a play.  He is NOT a threat to make plays for a loss, or to stop an RB in the hole before he gets the first down.  Maybe he could be that guy, with a different D scheme under a different D coordinator. Jordan Poyer, man, hats off to him for holding things together when he wasn't injured, but (a) he WAS injured a lot, and (b) that's not surprising considering his age, and (c) even when he was there, he wasn't as good as last year.  Hyde's absence probably had a lot to do with it.  

 

Finally, the coaching was less good than last year.  Teams have been figuring the Bills out for a couple of years.  The D is the same as always, so other teams have figured out how to attack it.  And on offense, other teams have figured out our pass routes and are playing to stop what we do best.  And they have all seen how helpful it is to spy Allen, as I mentioned.  Where's the innovation on either D or O?

 

It's going to be tough to stay on top of the AFCE.  The Dolphins are getting better, and if they replace Tua with Lamar Jackson, holy crap that's going to be hard to stop.  The Jets D is excellent but the Jets are still the Jets so they keep on screwing things up.  The Pats are stuck in pretty-good land, not good enough to make the playoffs but good enough to be a tough out, and never drafting high enough.  All things considered we're probably looking at 10-12 wins a year for the next few  seasons.   We'll make the playoffs but will never get a top seed, and will be on the road at KC or Cincy or the Chargers, who will continue to improve despite their many boneheaded moves.  

 

I'm 67 and it's beginning to dawn on me that I will NEVER see the Bills win a Lombardi during my lifetime.  2021 was the year.  The 13 seconds took away the best chance we'll ever have with Allen and the McDermott staff.  From here on, we'll have a good team but a slowly deteriorating one. 

Well said and doubt I will ever see the Bills win the Super Bowl in my lifetime, I’m in my early 40s.  

[chef4131]

best podcast   very informative 

[SCBills]

4 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

But the defensive line still wasn’t good enough.  They’re also going to need a safety since Poyer will probably leave and we don’t know when or if Hamlin will come back.  If Edmunds leaves, you need a LB, unless they’re satisfied with Dodson, Bernard and Spector.  CB may be the only defensive position not needing reenforcements, with Tre expected to return closer to his past and the 2 rooks to go with Jackson and Johnson.

Not directing this condescension towards you, but how about .. novel idea here.. we bring in a DC with a Defensive philosophy that doesn’t require above average talent everywhere on the field to remotely slow down a good offense in the playoffs?

 

Let Poyer walk. 
 

Let Edmunds walk.

 

Let Phillips walk. 
 

Trade Oliver. 
 

Bring back the modest contract pieces like Shaq, Klein, Dodson, Marlowe and Dane. 
 

DE: Von, Roussseau, Shaq, AJ, Basham

 

DT: Jones, Settle

 

LB: Milano, Dodson, Bernard, Klein

 

CB: White, Elam, Jackson, Benford

 

NICKEL: Johnson, Neal

 

S: Hyde, Marlowe

 

I mean…. Figure it out… there’s enough talent there.  Contractually, we have to cross our fingers that Von, White and Hyde all come back strong from their injury recovery.  There’s no way around that. 
 

Now we have money to spend in FA on Offense.  Go Offense on Day 1 and Day 2, then fill in our Defense on Day 3.  
 

Will there be weaknesses?  Probably.  
 

Figure it out. 
 

Chiefs have weaknesses all over that defense.  Maybe it gets exposed by Cincy this weekend?  Maybe not?  But it is what it is.  At least, if Mahomes was healthy, (at worst) they have a good shot to keep pace/out-score the Bengals. 

[VaMilBill]

5 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

But the defensive line still wasn’t good enough.  They’re also going to need a safety since Poyer will probably leave and we don’t know when or if Hamlin will come back.  If Edmunds leaves, you need a LB, unless they’re satisfied with Dodson, Bernard and Spector.  CB may be the only defensive position not needing reenforcements, with Tre expected to return closer to his past and the 2 rooks to go with Jackson and Johnson.

Regardless if Hamlin comes back or not, he was not very good this year. Lots of mistakes. Didn’t really show a natural talent to man the backend of our defense. We need find that diamond in the rough via free agency, IMO

[colin]

3 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Forget the defense. Let it suck. It does anyway against competent offenses. All resources to the offense or it's a failed off-season 

 

fellow south jersey bruv, this is the biggest head scratcher to me

 

in 2018 we slapped together a rag tag d squad while deep in cap jail, and they were 2nd in the nfl on d.  trash bags like star and that LB we signed from washington who had no knees left.  houghs on his last legs (decent) rook edmunds, young young milano, tre was decent, and we had our safeties, but also levi wallace.  

 

it honestly seems to me like the joy of the 1 of 11 mcd/frazier d scheme is it can run well if everyone does their job w not superior talent.  it's pretty clear that with more investment we don't get better results (save the obvious impact of a top pass rusher), so that's where we should look to save, if anywhere.

 

of course, that means we dump millions and tons of picks into the line where guys don't paly more than 40% of the snaps in a game, but have scrubs and fat bodies on the OL.

[BobbyC81]

19 hours ago, SCBills said:

Not directing this condescension towards you, but how about .. novel idea here.. we bring in a DC with a Defensive philosophy that doesn’t require above average talent everywhere on the field to remotely slow down a good offense in the playoffs?

 

Let Poyer walk. 
 

Let Edmunds walk.

 

Let Phillips walk. 
 

Trade Oliver. 
 

Bring back the modest contract pieces like Shaq, Klein, Dodson, Marlowe and Dane. 
 

DE: Von, Roussseau, Shaq, AJ, Basham

 

DT: Jones, Settle

 

LB: Milano, Dodson, Bernard, Klein

 

CB: White, Elam, Jackson, Benford

 

NICKEL: Johnson, Neal

 

S: Hyde, Marlowe

 

I mean…. Figure it out… there’s enough talent there.  Contractually, we have to cross our fingers that Von, White and Hyde all come back strong from their injury recovery.  There’s no way around that. 
 

Now we have money to spend in FA on Offense.  Go Offense on Day 1 and Day 2, then fill in our Defense on Day 3.  
 

Will there be weaknesses?  Probably.  
 

Figure it out. 
 

Chiefs have weaknesses all over that defense.  Maybe it gets exposed by Cincy this weekend?  Maybe not?  But it is what it is.  At least, if Mahomes was healthy, (at worst) they have a good shot to keep pace/out-score the Bengals. 

In my opinion, part of the reason the D-Line underachieves is this mass rotation approach.  Even though a player may benefit from less snaps, rotating a bunch of mediocre guys thru is unlikely to be as good as playing your best 4 most of the game.  Most of these guys are in their early 20s so they can surely play most of the snaps.

[Fleezoid]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:28 AM, Utah John said:

 

 

I'm 67 and it's beginning to dawn on me that I will NEVER see the Bills win a Lombardi during my lifetime.  2021 was the year.  The 13 seconds took away the best chance we'll ever have with Allen and the McDermott staff.  From here on, we'll have a good team but a slowly deteriorating one. 

 

I'm not far behind you and I was thinking the same thing.

 

The folks that say 'relax, we'll get there eventually'. Really? I'm starting to think, maybe not! It's been 56 years and nothing. Who's to say it won't be another 50 or more. 12 teams have never won a Super Bowl. If 10 of those teams each gets their first Suber Bowl win in the next 10 years, there's still 2 teams that will never have won it....10 years from now.

[whorlnut]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:54 AM, VaMilBill said:

Regardless if Hamlin comes back or not, he was not very good this year. Lots of mistakes. Didn’t really show a natural talent to man the backend of our defense. We need find that diamond in the rough via free agency, IMO

Since we are talking about Marino, it’s important to note that he believes Benford will be the poyer replacement. I’m more than ok with that. Promote from within. Benford has the same hybrid pedigree that Hyde had and look how that turned out. We do not need to take a safety high in the draft, nor do we need to spend FA dollars on one. The answer is likely already in the roster. 

[SCBills]

10 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Since we are talking about Marino, it’s important to note that he believes Benford will be the poyer replacement. I’m more than ok with that. Promote from within. Benford has the same hybrid pedigree that Hyde had and look how that turned out. We do not need to take a safety high in the draft, nor do we need to spend FA dollars on one. The answer is likely already in the roster. 

 

Would love that.  Bring back someone like Marlowe for a vet min and have Hyde/Benford as your starting Safeties.  

 

Can bring back Dane Jackson and have him as the 3rd outside corner backing up (hopefully) White & Elam.  

 

Taron Johnson in the slot, with Siran Neal as depth.  

 

The Secondary and DT are places we could save money this off-season and not need more than a couple Day 3 picks to stock up depth/rotation. 

 

Edmunds is the one guy who likely needs to have his replacement addressed given the absurdity of the Bernard pick last year.  We, for some reason, have Milano's backup on the roster but not Edmunds. 

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

Would love that.  Bring back someone like Marlowe for a vet min and have Hyde/Benford as your starting Safeties.  

 

Can bring back Dane Jackson and have him as the 3rd outside corner backing up (hopefully) White & Elam.  

 

Taron Johnson in the slot, with Siran Neal as depth.  

 

The Secondary and DT are places we could save money this off-season and not need more than a couple Day 3 picks to stock up depth/rotation. 

 

Edmunds is the one guy who likely needs to have his replacement addressed given the absurdity of the Bernard pick last year.  We, for some reason, have Milano's backup on the roster but not Edmunds. 

Well…I personally feel like Beane and McD need to ride or die with Bernard after using such a valuable pick on him. The prevailing thought was he was insurance in case they lost edmunds. They can’t give up on that guy after a year and continue to ignore the offense. 

[Matt_In_NH]

6 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Well…I personally feel like Beane and McD need to ride or die with Bernard after using such a valuable pick on him. The prevailing thought was he was insurance in case they lost edmunds. They can’t give up on that guy after a year and continue to ignore the offense. 

Don’t agree with ride or die.  Some picks don’t work out and you should not force yourself to use the guy anyway.  Sometimes you have to just find a different solution.