Discussion about Sean Payton

[SectionC3]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Knox has been open more than "from time to time" his separation numbers are among the best in the league for tight ends, his catch % is the best of his career.... the under usage of Dawson Knox is on Dorsey and Josh. 

I’ll add Spencer Brown to the list of those complicit, but otherwise I agree with you.  

[BarleyNY]

2 minutes ago, ExWNYer said:

 

 

On top of the draft pick compensation, Payton reportedly wants $20M - $25M to become someone's HC. Does anyone realistically think that Beane (picks) and the Pegulas (cash) would be willing to ante up that kind of compensation? I don't. It's just a fan pipe dream. I'd be happy with cutting loose Leslie Frazier for starters and going from there.

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

[Cray51]

6 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

McKenzie is not it.  Hence Allen pushing for Beasley mid-year. 

 

The slot guy next year is a share between Diggs and Shakir.  Boom.  Done.  Be creative.  Move people around.  The big need this offseason is a boundary WR who can make a contested catch now and again, unlike one of the current occupants of said position.  

If I remember correctly, Diggs was incredibly productive this season from the slot. 

 

If we can draft a top end rookie WR to play with Davis on the outside, and leverage Diggs in the slot, we could be a REAL challenge

[DCOrange]

37 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Sean Payton is under contract. What’s the expected compensation? Yes, he’s a much better coach than McD and I’d swap him out today. But that means blowing it all up in the FO too. Again, I’d be okay with that for Payton. I don’t see another available HC that I’d do it for tho. 

Spend more than a 1st round pick for the right to pay him $25 mil per year and his track record as a coach is making it to 1 Super Bowl in 15 years with his team going all in more often than not. I’d probably rather have McDermott even if we didn’t have to give up the farm for Payton, but considering the cost to get him, it’s a no brainer to pass. 

[Cray51]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

What's your definition of significant?

[Brand J]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Knox has been open more than "from time to time" his separation numbers are among the best in the league for tight ends, his catch % is the best of his career.... the under usage of Dawson Knox is on Dorsey and Josh. 

If Knox is effectively being schemed open, but the QB isn’t throwing him the ball, how is that on the OC? Too many complain about Dorsey - and I’m not saying he didn’t have his faults - but I do see open players on the field. That’s not a scheme issue. I don’t see our QB always making the best decisions on where to go with the ball. 

[BarleyNY]

1 minute ago, Cray51 said:

In what aspects is McDermott not a very good to great coach?  5 playoff appearances in 6 years, 3 straight division titles, players love him, handles situations professionally, brings in FA talent with Beane, great at utilizing timeouts and challenges (something he has improved drastically over the years).  He is absolutely a top 8 coach in the league.

 

Payton is an unknown outside of his stint with Brees.  Do I think he is also a great coach?  Yes.  But would I trade a first round pick which could be used to bring in a stud young WR or top Guard for him?  Absolutely not.  That is an absolute waste of capital.  We need more talent around Josh, plain and simple.

 

Do I think Frazier needs to go or change scheme?  Yea, thats a conversation worth having.  But to dump McD when he has shown consistency in success (something that a lot of people have taken for granted even though we just had a 25 year playoff win drought) is a terrible idea.  McD has at least another season to show what we can do, and when he is hear next season and we are at the top of the division again, I wont be surprised

McDermott has certainly done very good things for the Bills overall. But he’s not a great coach yet. He has not earned that. Maybe he will grow into one, but the major issues with his teams - and HIS defenses in particular - in the playoffs keep him from reaching the “great coach” level. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

 

So while I do think Sean Payton is an upgrade on McDermott, he has a sketchy playoff history himself. He lost Conference Championship game to Rex Grossman. He lost a playoff game as reigning champions to a 7-9 division winner. He lost twice to average Minnesota teams quarterbacked by Keenum and Cousins. All while having Drew freaking Brees. 

 

If he was a genuine FA maybe. But giving up a 1st round pick for Payton to "get you over the hump" when his track record of losing to less talented teams in the post season reads like that? Not for me. 

[ExWNYer]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

 

I don't disagree and I know that coaches salaries don't count against the salary cap but I just don't see the Pegulas parting with that kind of scratch just for a HC. Maybe I'm wrong about that but that's just my opinion or gut feeling. If you told me that they were onboard and Payton would sign, I would gladly say, "Thanks for the memories and getting us back on track, Sean McDermott. Good luck to you in your future endeavors." As has been floated by others, I'm am starting to get a Marty Schottenheimer vibe from McDermott...good enough to get a franchise viable and on the right path but not good enough to ever win the big one.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

If Knox is effectively being schemed open, but the QB isn’t throwing him the ball, how is that on the OC? Too many complain about Dorsey - and I’m not saying he didn’t have his faults - but I do see open players on the field. That’s not a scheme issue. I don’t see our QB always making the best decisions on where to go with the ball. 

 

I said it is on both. Are they not having him as the primary read enough? Is he the read but Josh is forcing things downfield more? I don't know. Either is possible. What was noticeable was multiple games where they went to Knox on designed plays in the script then got away from it. It felt to me like McDermott was saying to Dorsey in the week "you gotta use Dawson" so he did in the first 15.... and then got away from him. 

[BarleyNY]

10 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Spend more than a 1st round pick for the right to pay him $25 mil per year and his track record as a coach is making it to 1 Super Bowl in 15 years with his team going all in more often than not. I’d probably rather have McDermott even if we didn’t have to give up the farm for Payton, but considering the cost to get him, it’s a no brainer to pass. 

Won a Super Bowl. Didn’t just make it there. I don’t care what his salary would be. Payton likely would elevate this offense and we’d see a change on the defensive side of the ball. He’d give this team a chance. Right now we’re sticking with a group that’s responsible for repeated awful defensive performances in the playoffs, a horrid offensive game plan for two straight playoff games this season and the 13 second debacle. So it is more that Payton is probably the best option out there right now and that’s way better than a group of coaches and FO personnel that I’ve lost faith in. 

[Wayne Cubed]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I said it is on both. Are they not having him as the primary read enough? Is he the read but Josh is forcing things downfield more? I don't know. Either is possible. What was noticeable was multiple games where they went to Knox on designed plays in the script then got away from it. It felt to me like McDermott was saying to Dorsey in the week "you gotta use Dawson" so he did in the first 15.... and then got away from him. 

 

It definitely could be Josh but then a part of me thinks it's Dorsey's scheme and this 'big play' vertical offense. And I'm not sure he's being held accountable for missing the wide open guys? So is that Dorsey too, could be. You look at Zac Taylors offense last night and so much of it was very very smart and guys were wide open and not NFL wide open, literally wide open. I don't know if Josh is like Joe B and can make reads as quickly, I know he can make the throws.

[BarleyNY]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So while I do think Sean Payton is an upgrade on McDermott, he has a sketchy playoff history himself. He lost Conference Championship game to Rex Grossman. He lost a playoff game as reigning champions to a 7-9 division winner. He lost twice to average Minnesota teams quarterbacked by Keenum and Cousins. All while having Drew freaking Brees. 

 

If he was a genuine FA maybe. But giving up a 1st round pick for Payton to "get you over the hump" when his track record of losing to less talented teams in the post season reads like that? Not for me. 

That’s a fair take. My issue is more that he’s probably the best out there and that I’ve lost faith in this group of coaches and FO personnel. It’s not so much getting Payton specifically. I just want an upgrade. 
 

Edit: And, yes, I know a full overhaul is not happening this off-season. Right now I’m venting. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by BarleyNY

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

It definitely could be Josh but then a part of me thinks it's Dorsey's scheme and this 'big play' vertical offense. And I'm not sure he's being held accountable for missing the wide open guys? So is that Dorsey too, could be. You look at Zac Taylors offense last night and so much of it was very very smart and guys were wide open and not NFL wide open, literally wide open. I don't know if Josh is like Joe B and can make reads as quickly, I know he can make the throws.

 

It was also a LOT of quick game. I counted one quick game play from the Bills last night and it was after the game was gone. 

[LabattBlue]

42 minutes ago, papazoid said:

bills will hold out hope that frazier gets a HC gig and they get the 3rd round comp picks

Never in a million years is it going to happen. We are stuck with Frazier unless McD grows some balls and fires him, or Frazier eventually retires. 

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I said it is on both. Are they not having him as the primary read enough? Is he the read but Josh is forcing things downfield more? I don't know. Either is possible. What was noticeable was multiple games where they went to Knox on designed plays in the script then got away from it. It felt to me like McDermott was saying to Dorsey in the week "you gotta use Dawson" so he did in the first 15.... and then got away from him. 

Yes, I know you said it’s on both, but I’m putting it more on the execution. The players. It’s on Dorsey to get people open or call well-timed plays against certain defenses that yield positive results. If Josh has options - open options - but he isn’t taking them, that’s not on the coordinator. He can sit down with Josh and they can all “learn” from the moment, but if the same issues arise game after game then at some point you have to put most of the blame on the players. For those who want to blame the OC equally, or more so, they’ll rebuttal with “if those plays weren’t working then he needed to run some others!” 
 

People debated whether Belichick or Brady was behind the Pats success and I rolled my eyes. Belichick is a great defensive coordinator, possibly the greatest of all time. His defenses stepped up in many big SB moments BUT Brady was the one who made clutch plays when they were absolutely needed. He did that all season and in the playoffs, Belichick doesn’t win 7 rings without the GOAT. McD can’t win a ring as a defensive coordinator if his defense is a liability and never steps up in the big moments and his QB doesn’t make the throws - clutch or otherwise - that are there to be made. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BarleyNY said:

That’s a fair take. My issue is more that he’s probably the best out there and that I’ve lost faith in this group of coaches and FO personnel. It’s not so much getting Payton specifically. I just want an upgrade. 

 

And he is the only upgrade in this field, so I get it. I'd still retain the regime another year, but failure to address their repeating issues - pass rush and oline - and I'd move on. Ben Johnson OC, Detroit.... he is the one I have my eye on. 

[TheBeaneBandit]

18 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

In what aspects is McDermott not a very good to great coach?  5 playoff appearances in 6 years, 3 straight division titles, players love him, handles situations professionally, brings in FA talent with Beane, great at utilizing timeouts and challenges (something he has improved drastically over the years).  He is absolutely a top 8 coach in the league.

 

Payton is an unknown outside of his stint with Brees.  Do I think he is also a great coach?  Yes.  But would I trade a first round pick which could be used to bring in a stud young WR or top Guard for him?  Absolutely not.  That is an absolute waste of capital.  We need more talent around Josh, plain and simple.

 

Do I think Frazier needs to go or change scheme?  Yea, thats a conversation worth having.  But to dump McD when he has shown consistency in success (something that a lot of people have taken for granted even though we just had a 25 year playoff win drought) is a terrible idea.  McD has at least another season to show what we can do, and when he is hear next season and we are at the top of the division again, I wont be surprised

His one remaining big weakness is loyally to well, weakness. Frazier gotta go.

[Wayne Cubed]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It was also a LOT of quick game. I counted one quick game play from the Bills last night and it was after the game was gone. 

 

And I think for me, it's what I find the most frustrating. I can't remember the Bills ever running a quick game offense, this season. I remember we've talked about how getting Josh a few quick completions used to settle him down.

[BarleyNY]

14 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

What's your definition of significant?

In this case simply a group of coaches who can put together decent game plans in the post season would be an upgrade. For example, McDermott is a defensive coach and his Bills defenses in the playoffs have been atrocious against good offenses. That’s been consistent.