Time to go all in on the OL - The grades

[Gunsgoodtime]

4 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

So true. Yea... our NFL draft history for WR's... 

 

2022

Khalil Shakir - 5th round - Definitely can be a solid slot guy in the future, showed promise at the end of the season. 

 

2021

Marquez Stevenson - 6th round - Cleveland practice squad (never understood this pick, he had 300 yards his senior season at Houston)

 

2020

Gabe Davis - 4th round - CAN be a WR1a

 

2019

NONE

 

2018

Ray-Ray McCloud - 6th round - We waived him in 2020, now playing in the NFC Championship game

Austin Proehl - 7th round - Huh?

 

2017

Zay Jones - 2md round - Traded him for a 5th round pick. He had 546 yards last year for Vegas

 

Thanks for this.  Just confirms my belief this administration does not value offense.  Its really upsetting how they have handled the offense.  Having Josh Allen as your qb makes it much worse too 

[SectionC3]

12 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I mean that’s how the Chiefs did it. The Chiefs went all in on pass protection for Mahomes and they did a youth movement in their defense seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

I made a similar suggestion, though not as neatly put as you did, in a different thread.  Double down on helping Josh in the draft, and let the chips fall where they may on the other side of the ball.  Maybe you have another point, too: paying STers decent money may now be a thing of the past.  Guys like Matakevich might not be around too much longer.  The punter probably will be a minimum wage player next year.  Beyond that, time for the kids to step up.  

[Bill from NYC]

1 minute ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

Really? I can think of like 10 other games the Bills have lost that are worse than this one.  I'm shocked that people are shocked that the Bengals whopped the Bills the way they did. 

We have the best and most talented QB in the history of the franchise. Our defense (including our supposedly star studded secondary) got dog walked by an inferior team with 3 subs on the OL, and our offense (especially the perpetually inept OL) couldn't do jack siht.....this at home.

 

Yes, this game pissed me off.

[ArdmoreRyno]

2 minutes ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

Thanks for this.  Just confirms my belief this administration does not value offense.  Its really upsetting how they have handled the offense.  Having Josh Allen as your qb makes it much worse too 

 

Aside from Josh, we have not selected ANY offensive player in the 1st round since Sammy in 2014. 

Since 2015 in the first two rounds? 

 

OFFENSIVE PLAYERS: 4 (Josh Allen, Zay Jones, Cody Ford, James Cook)
DEFENSIVE PLAYERS: 11

 

[Gunsgoodtime]

1 minute ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

Aside from Josh, we have not selected ANY offensive player in the 1st round since Sammy in 2014. 

Since 2015 in the first two rounds? 

 

OFFENSIVE PLAYERS: 4 (Josh Allen, Zay Jones, Cody Ford, James Cook)
DEFENSIVE PLAYERS: 11

 

And the DL is still basically a bunch of nobody's.  Only players that Bills fans recognize.  They have not only failed at using resources on the Offense, they have failed using the picks that they used on Defense.  I never really considered firing Beane or McDermott until now.  It seems to be all coming out for fans to see, and its infuriating to see honestly 

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, BillyBilliams said:

Can you believe Bobby Hart played 97 snaps as an eligable receiver?  Are you ***** KIDDING ME?  

 

The Bills were actually quite good running the ball when they brought Bobby Hart in as a blocking TE. 

 

We should have gone to that yesterday and shoved the ball down their throat. It worked on the first series in Cinci, because they stay in nickel. 

 

If we had done that enough, they would have pulled Hendrickson out and maybe added a LB. And that's when you go to play action. 

 

But back to the thread. Dawkins and Morse are average starters. 

 

Bates is a slightly below average starter.

 

And Saffold and Brown grade out as backups. 

 

Draft two G's, one that has C experience and an OT to compete with Brown. 

[AuntieEm]

2 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

It's borderline criminal what this coaching staff apparently thinks Josh should be able to work with.

 

If it weren't for Josh's mobility, this year's Bills probably set a new record for sacks taken in a season.

 

   It is like buying a 250 million dollar painting and have it hanging at your weekend cabin which you leave unlocked for hikers to use the bathroom.  

[NewEra]

55 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Right, FA likely not the answer with Bills’ cap situation.  Draft is reportedly poor for interior OL, but OT might be decent.  Maybe can find a T that can move inside.  
 

I still have hope that if Brown is healthy enough to train in the offseason, he might improve.  Missing all offseason and training camp due to back injury can’t have helped him this year.

I have hope too….. but that doesn’t mean we can go into next season with Brown as our starting RT.  That would be a major mistake imo.  As was starting him yesterday.  I think Quessenberry was better  than Brown this season. 

[Wraith]

31 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

Aside from Josh, we have not selected ANY offensive player in the 1st round since Sammy in 2014. 

Since 2015 in the first two rounds? 

 

OFFENSIVE PLAYERS: 4 (Josh Allen, Zay Jones, Cody Ford, James Cook)
DEFENSIVE PLAYERS: 11

 

Yikes

[MAJBobby]

3 hours ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

Honestly sick of watching our quarter billion dollar QB run for his life on every play. When Josh has time to throw the ball, he might be one of the best QB's in league history... but we've invested so much into building a defense to stop Kansas City, which has been great during the regular season, we've done nothing to protect JA. 

 

I absolutely love Dion, but he's really-really bad. I just watched the edited down replay from the NFL today and he held or was smoked on EVERY DOWN. It's been an issue all for him. Somehow he's graded 24th in regards to tackles by PFF.

 

Let's review our draft picks for our OL the past few years... 

 

2022

Luke Tenuta - 6th round - released in the pre-season

 

2021

Spencer Brown - 3rd round - allowed 36 QB pressures in 2021. Allowed 42 pressures in 2022. He's currently ranked 76th in the NFL at the tackle position. There are teams with 4 tackles ranked higher than Spencer. 

Tommy Doyle - 5th round - Has never started in 2 years. Tore his ACL this year against Miami. His pass blocking grade is worse than Spencer's

Jack Anderson - 7th ground - Practice squad and now he's on the Giants roster. Was on the 2 deep for a while and graded out better than Brown and Doyle pass blocking in '22. 

 

2020

NONE DRAFTED

 

2019

Cody Ford - 2nd round - Now with the Cardinals. One of the worst rated guards in the NFL ever since he was drafted by Buffalo. 

 

2018

Wyatt Teller - 5th round - Traded to Cleveland in 2020 for 2 picks (ended up being Fromm and Hodgins). Teller is now one of the best guards in the NFL (2x All-Pro). He's rated 17th overall in the NFL. Side note: Cleveland has two of the best guards in the league with Teller and Bitonio.

 

Let's review the 2 deep.... 

 

Dion Dawkins - 24th rated tackle

Rodger Saffold - 74th rated guard

Mitch Morris - 24th rated center

Ryan Bates - 42nd rated guard

Spencer Brown - 76th ranked guard

 

David Quessenberry - 68th ranked tackle

Bobby Hart - NR (guard) - Only played 128 snaps this year

Greg Van Roten - 52nd ranked guard

Ike Boettger - NR (guard) - Only played 6 snaps this year due to injury

 

 

WHY DON'T WE INVEST IN OUR OFFENSIVE LINE?!?!?! We have 2 guys on the team we've drafted since 2018 on the line. TWO. I won't even begin to go over who has been drafted for other teams that are solid starters now, after some of our busts draft picks.

 

FREE AGENTS

Ben Powers - G - Baltimore 

Isaac Seumalo  - G - Philly

Dalton Risner - G - Denver

Mike McGlinchey - T - SF

Orlando Brown Jr. - T - KC

Kaleb McGary - T - Atlanta

Jawaan Taylor - T - Jax

Kelvin Beachum - T - Arizona

 

Hey you have 2 on this list that I absolutely want the Bills to buy.  Risner and Taylor.  

[Inigo Montoya]

2 hours ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

Honestly sick of watching our quarter billion dollar QB run for his life on every play. When Josh has time to throw the ball, he might be one of the best QB's in league history... but we've invested so much into building a defense to stop Kansas City, which has been great during the regular season, we've done nothing to protect JA. 

 

I absolutely love Dion, but he's really-really bad. I just watched the edited down replay from the NFL today and he held or was smoked on EVERY DOWN. It's been an issue all for him. Somehow he's graded 24th in regards to tackles by PFF.

 

Let's review our draft picks for our OL the past few years... 

 

2022

Luke Tenuta - 6th round - released in the pre-season

 

2021

Spencer Brown - 3rd round - allowed 36 QB pressures in 2021. Allowed 42 pressures in 2022. He's currently ranked 76th in the NFL at the tackle position. There are teams with 4 tackles ranked higher than Spencer. 

Tommy Doyle - 5th round - Has never started in 2 years. Tore his ACL this year against Miami. His pass blocking grade is worse than Spencer's

Jack Anderson - 7th ground - Practice squad and now he's on the Giants roster. Was on the 2 deep for a while and graded out better than Brown and Doyle pass blocking in '22. 

 

2020

NONE DRAFTED

 

2019

Cody Ford - 2nd round - Now with the Cardinals. One of the worst rated guards in the NFL ever since he was drafted by Buffalo. 

 

2018

Wyatt Teller - 5th round - Traded to Cleveland in 2020 for 2 picks (ended up being Fromm and Hodgins). Teller is now one of the best guards in the NFL (2x All-Pro). He's rated 17th overall in the NFL. Side note: Cleveland has two of the best guards in the league with Teller and Bitonio.

 

Let's review the 2 deep.... 

 

Dion Dawkins - 24th rated tackle

Rodger Saffold - 74th rated guard

Mitch Morris - 24th rated center

Ryan Bates - 42nd rated guard

Spencer Brown - 76th ranked guard

 

David Quessenberry - 68th ranked tackle

Bobby Hart - NR (guard) - Only played 128 snaps this year

Greg Van Roten - 52nd ranked guard

Ike Boettger - NR (guard) - Only played 6 snaps this year due to injury

 

 

WHY DON'T WE INVEST IN OUR OFFENSIVE LINE?!?!?! We have 2 guys on the team we've drafted since 2018 on the line. TWO. I won't even begin to go over who has been drafted for other teams that are solid starters now, after some of our busts draft picks.

 

FREE AGENTS

Ben Powers - G - Baltimore 

Isaac Seumalo  - G - Philly

Dalton Risner - G - Denver

Mike McGlinchey - T - SF

Orlando Brown Jr. - T - KC

Kaleb McGary - T - Atlanta

Jawaan Taylor - T - Jax

Kelvin Beachum - T - Arizona

 

 

Nice post OP, I appreciate the time you spent putting it together.  

 

Beane did bring in some free agents to try to shore up the line.  During Josh's second year in 2019 Beane signed Morse, Spain, Feliciano, Nseke, and Spencer Long. They did improve the O-line play compared to Josh's rookie season. They brought in Daryl Williams in 2020 and he played well for one season. Bobby Hart headlined last year's 2021 O-Line free agents. This year was Saffold, Quessenberry, and Van Roten.  Of all these free agents the only one who has been consistently solid is Morris.  Daryll Williams had one good year and then fell off precipitously.

 

There is no question that the O-Line play as a whole has regressed this year.  I think everyone realizes that the O-Line needs an overhaul including Beane.  I suspect he will make some investments there this off season.

 

I think Beane is a great GM.  I think he hoped to get more out of the O-Line than he got this year.  I think he knows he is going to have to shore up the O-Line to protect Josh and win a championship.  The Cincy game sucked but we still have the foundation to be a Super Bowl team.  I trust Beane will get some fresh blood on the O-Line.

 

[billsfan89]

I would easily sign a vet RT to compete with Brown then draft Oline 3 out of the first 4 picks in the draft. That should along with a depth signing or two massively help out the Oline and set it up for the future.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

Nice post OP, I appreciate the time you spent putting it together.  

 

Beane did bring in some free agents to try to shore up the line.  During Josh's second year in 2019 Beane signed Morse, Spain, Feliciano, Nseke, and Spencer Long. They did improve the O-line play compared to Josh's rookie season. They brought in Daryl Williams in 2020 and he played well for one season. Bobby Hart headlined last year's 2021 O-Line free agents. This year was Saffold, Quessenberry, and Van Roten.  Of all these free agents the only one who has been consistently solid is Morris.  Daryll Williams had one good year and then fell off precipitously.

 

There is no question that the O-Line play as a whole has regressed this year.  I think everyone realizes that the O-Line needs an overhaul including Beane.  I suspect he will make some investments there this off season.

 

I think Beane is a great GM.  I think he hoped to get more out of the O-Line than he got this year.  I think he knows he is going to have to shore up the O-Line to protect Josh and win a championship.  The Cincy game sucked but we still have the foundation to be a Super Bowl team.  I trust Beane will get some fresh blood on the O-Line.

 

Williams had one pretty good season, got paid, and then mailed it in with first class postage.

[Billsguy]

IMO, the game is won or lost in the trenches. Clearly, both OL and DL are not good enough. I would prioritize the OL as the top problem to address. There are several other areas of need, but you have to protect your franchise player first.

 

I think the jury is still out on James Cook, but I have seen enough of Singletary. He has no burst or explosiveness, no speed, no power, and mediocre evasiveness.

I think the jury is still out on Khalil Shakir, but after Diggs the WR corp is not good enough. Gabe Davis was a huge disappointment. The others are journeymen. 

 

Greg Rousseau shows promise, but Epenesa, Basham, and the others are not good enough. The linebackers as a group are not playmakers. Just check out the athleticism and explosiveness of the 49er's linebackers as an example. No comparison. 

 

No point in going on and on, but Beane and McD have built a team incapable of winning the Super Bowl at this point. The four teams left in the playoffs are all superior to the Bills.

 

 

[Thrivefourfive]

How does one even become a 74th rated guard? There’s only two guards on the line. So these guys are 3rd string guards and they are STARTING for the Bills???

[BillsShredder83]

7 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

A bunch of years ago, Cowherd quoted an anonymous NFL scout saying the OL is the hardest position group to project to the NFL from college. This was due to the proliferation of single read spread offenses in college. No one is asked to hold a block while a QB runs through his progressions. The OTs that are easy to project go in the top of the first round while the others are all crapshoots. 

all the more reason to hit the well more than 3xs in 5 freaking years

[The Jokeman]

7 hours ago, BillyBilliams said:

Can you believe Bobby Hart played 97 snaps as an eligable receiver?  Are you ***** KIDDING ME?  

It's because we don't have a backup TE worth a damn on this roster. Morris at best is a number 3.

[Governor]

I’m very happy that the board’s eyes have finally been opened in regards to this regime. Let’s call it what it is. It’s a cult.

 

I think you give McD one more year but as fans we have to make it extreme painful for him. All of his power should be stripped. I’ll allow clapping but that’s it.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Governor

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

Honestly sick of watching our quarter billion dollar QB run for his life on every play. When Josh has time to throw the ball, he might be one of the best QB's in league history... but we've invested so much into building a defense to stop Kansas City, which has been great during the regular season, we've done nothing to protect JA. 

 

I absolutely love Dion, but he's really-really bad. I just watched the edited down replay from the NFL today and he held or was smoked on EVERY DOWN. It's been an issue all for him. Somehow he's graded 24th in regards to tackles by PFF.

 

Let's review our draft picks for our OL the past few years... 

 

2022

Luke Tenuta - 6th round - released in the pre-season

 

2021

Spencer Brown - 3rd round - allowed 36 QB pressures in 2021. Allowed 42 pressures in 2022. He's currently ranked 76th in the NFL at the tackle position. There are teams with 4 tackles ranked higher than Spencer. 

Tommy Doyle - 5th round - Has never started in 2 years. Tore his ACL this year against Miami. His pass blocking grade is worse than Spencer's

Jack Anderson - 7th ground - Practice squad and now he's on the Giants roster. Was on the 2 deep for a while and graded out better than Brown and Doyle pass blocking in '22. 

 

2020

NONE DRAFTED

 

2019

Cody Ford - 2nd round - Now with the Cardinals. One of the worst rated guards in the NFL ever since he was drafted by Buffalo. 

 

2018

Wyatt Teller - 5th round - Traded to Cleveland in 2020 for 2 picks (ended up being Fromm and Hodgins). Teller is now one of the best guards in the NFL (2x All-Pro). He's rated 17th overall in the NFL. Side note: Cleveland has two of the best guards in the league with Teller and Bitonio.

 

Let's review the 2 deep.... 

 

Dion Dawkins - 24th rated tackle

Rodger Saffold - 74th rated guard

Mitch Morris - 24th rated center

Ryan Bates - 42nd rated guard

Spencer Brown - 76th ranked guard

 

David Quessenberry - 68th ranked tackle

Bobby Hart - NR (guard) - Only played 128 snaps this year

Greg Van Roten - 52nd ranked guard

Ike Boettger - NR (guard) - Only played 6 snaps this year due to injury

 

 

WHY DON'T WE INVEST IN OUR OFFENSIVE LINE?!?!?! We have 2 guys on the team we've drafted since 2018 on the line. TWO. I won't even begin to go over who has been drafted for other teams that are solid starters now, after some of our busts draft picks.

 

FREE AGENTS

Ben Powers - G - Baltimore 

Isaac Seumalo  - G - Philly

Dalton Risner - G - Denver

Mike McGlinchey - T - SF

Orlando Brown Jr. - T - KC

Kaleb McGary - T - Atlanta

Jawaan Taylor - T - Jax

Kelvin Beachum - T - Arizona

 

 

 

Dion isn't bad. He's very good. We don't need to replace him or even think about it.

 

Having said that, he had a bad game. No question.

 

Morse is really good too. But he has to be thinking about when to hang it up. We need to be addressing this.

 

Bates was acceptable. Not better than that. He was better at the end of last year. What happened? Replacing him is not an immediate need, but upgrading there has to be under consideration, now and for the future.

 

RT just was not good enough. But why? Last year he was better than this year and was trending up. He's not been good most of this year. Is that an injury? Has he reached his ceiling? Does he need a different style of coaching? Dunno. But this coaching staff has to be looking very hard at this situation, very hard.

 

Saffold just wasn't good enough. Don't know why, but it was pretty clear that even though he had a few good performances that we need some kind of upgrade.

 

I'd like to see them address the line pretty early in the draft, myself. It's not clear if Beane thinks this is a good idea. I do.

 

God, this was depressing.

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, dorquemada said:

I realize you can't replace the entire OL in one offseason.  Let's say we can keep 2 guys, who are they?  Is Dorkins worth keeping?

 

yes, Dawkins and Morse.

 

This might be controversial, but I think Dawkins played better last season next to Bates, so one might consider going Dawkins-Bates-Morse and looking for help at RG/RT

 

I was disappointed in Aaron Kromer.  I thought Beach Chairs helped us put together a pretty decent OL when he was here before.

 

7 hours ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Who was Morse's backup at C. Van Rotten?  Bates?  I feel like we've had decent C play when Morse has gone down.  Plus, with his concussion history, guy should retire and we can use his cap elsewhere.

 

Bates was the #2, but several times when Morse went down, Bates was already out of the game (or went down) and Van Roten replaced him.

I was NOT a fan of Van Roten at C, but I'm not sure how life looks with the #3 guy at C across the league - probably not good.