Time to go all in on the OL - The grades

[Bill from NYC]

5 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

 

Morse and Dawkins you keep.  The rest can be fired into the sun

Morse has a very serious concussion history and needs to be replaced and soon. 

 

Yes, keep Dawkins but at this point he might look better at guard, I don't know.

[The Frankish Reich]

16 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Brown is Mike McGlinchey. He is an okay player for the Niners who will be a free agent who took a long time to get good. . I really don't see an upgrade to Brown on the FA list. Jawaan Taylor is  very interesting guy in my world. Just 25 years old with some more upside to go. Kaleb McGary is probably by far the best guy on teh market. Same deal. long athletic guy who took awhile to put it together.

Good summary. And that’s why O line projects are a problem. “Took a while to put it together” = “will be an expensive free agent by the time he becomes valuable.”  
I’m a rare Tremaine Edmunds defender here. But same thing with him: very young (remember the “he’s still 19!” Thing on draft day?), very talented but very raw when we drafted him. I thought he got better hear by year, but by the time he’s actually really good (my minority view), he’ll be packing his bags. 

[Gunsgoodtime]

1 hour ago, Yobogoya! said:

Of note is that this regime has acquired only one lineman of any exceptional talent in five years… and summarily shipped him away to another team. Good grief, man…

If they can't change their mindset, they need to go for us to be able to get better

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, Governor said:

All of the resources go to McD’s silly defense. I don’t think Beane has any say. 5-6 years in and we still don’t have a single good lineman. That’s really hard to do.

 

I agree with the bolded 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[OldTimer1960]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

They overrated Saffold.  They thought they were getting a one year fix @ LG.  They thought wrong.  
 

Brown was drafted to be our RT.  He’s 6’8 and has back problems. They were hoping he’d be a solid RT.  They were wrong.

 

Bates looked to be an emerging starter.  We retained him. He was below average. 
 

Morse and Dawkins are solid starters.  Neither are great. 2 poor players- 1 below average player and 2 solid starters + a rookie OC that doesn’t really seem to have a plan = going home early. 
 

so now what?  Get a legit LG and RT.  Let brown be our swing tackle.  Might have to replace Morse too.  Beane has his work cut out for him.  Drafting OL doesn’t seem to be something our FO does well and we don’t have much $ until we start mortgaging the future. 

Right, FA likely not the answer with Bills’ cap situation.  Draft is reportedly poor for interior OL, but OT might be decent.  Maybe can find a T that can move inside.  
 

I still have hope that if Brown is healthy enough to train in the offseason, he might improve.  Missing all offseason and training camp due to back injury can’t have helped him this year.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Governor said:

All of the resources go to McD’s silly defense. I don’t think Beane has any say. 5-6 years in and we still don’t have a single good lineman. That’s really hard to do.

 

Maybe they’re just afraid to draft another after the Cody Ford fiasco. Remember when they shot a video showing how much they pretended to want Ford?  Yeah, sure that was your target. Lol

I guarantee you McDermott determines 100% of the defensive picks and probably some of the offense. Beane is just Sean's puppet.  The embarrassment that is our OL and DL falls squarely on McD....he is the fools gold of NFL head coaches.

[Real McClappy]

15 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respect your opinion very much but I have been hearing the same sad song for almost 30 years. Remember when Mouse McNally was going to make our OL great? Folks were saying that it was only bad because of the "scheme." Yeah well the line got worse with McNally. Levy and Jauron obviously valued the secondary above all else. Even Butler drafted Leodis McKelvin in round 1, passing on 2 great blockers  who were desperately needed. McDermott? As I said in another thread, he is a bald Dick Jauron. McDermott wanted a corner just so bad he traded away the pick for Mahomes and drafted one. 

 

Until I see it, I refuse to believe that the Bills will ever place adequate resources into blocking. Our blockers were beaten half to death yesterday. Did you see the Eagles OL trample the Giants? It works. 

 

Here were our most recent 1st Round offensive line draft picks:

1) Eric Wood - 2009 (With a pick we received for trading away HOF LT Jason Peters, who we lucked into)

2) Mike Williams - 2004

3) Ruben Brown 1995

 

Excellent post by the OP. 

Holy ***** Bill, thanks for popping this together. 

 

Just sad when you see it broken down this way.  

[Ga boy]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

It's borderline criminal what this coaching staff apparently thinks Josh should be able to work with.

 

If it weren't for Josh's mobility, this year's Bills probably set a new record for sacks taken in a season.

Totally agree.  For most of our wins, the offense masked the D shortcomings.  When offense struggled (like yesterday) the team looked average, and the D gets exposed.  Really same story for 3 years.  I agree with many that offense changes are priority #1.  Should see at least 4 new starters on offense.  Tweak the D and we can roll.  Maybe use Maine or Tre to get a premier wr.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

Honestly sick of watching our quarter billion dollar QB run for his life on every play. When Josh has time to throw the ball, he might be one of the best QB's in league history... but we've invested so much into building a defense to stop Kansas City, which has been great during the regular season, we've done nothing to protect JA. 

 

I absolutely love Dion, but he's really-really bad. I just watched the edited down replay from the NFL today and he held or was smoked on EVERY DOWN. It's been an issue all for him. Somehow he's graded 24th in regards to tackles by PFF.

 

Let's review our draft picks for our OL the past few years... 

 

2022

Luke Tenuta - 6th round - released in the pre-season

 

2021

Spencer Brown - 3rd round - allowed 36 QB pressures in 2021. Allowed 42 pressures in 2022. He's currently ranked 76th in the NFL at the tackle position. There are teams with 4 tackles ranked higher than Spencer. 

Tommy Doyle - 5th round - Has never started in 2 years. Tore his ACL this year against Miami. His pass blocking grade is worse than Spencer's

Jack Anderson - 7th ground - Practice squad and now he's on the Giants roster. Was on the 2 deep for a while and graded out better than Brown and Doyle pass blocking in '22. 

 

2020

NONE DRAFTED

 

2019

Cody Ford - 2nd round - Now with the Cardinals. One of the worst rated guards in the NFL ever since he was drafted by Buffalo. 

 

2018

Wyatt Teller - 5th round - Traded to Cleveland in 2020 for 2 picks (ended up being Fromm and Hodgins). Teller is now one of the best guards in the NFL (2x All-Pro). He's rated 17th overall in the NFL. Side note: Cleveland has two of the best guards in the league with Teller and Bitonio.

 

Let's review the 2 deep.... 

 

Dion Dawkins - 24th rated tackle

Rodger Saffold - 74th rated guard

Mitch Morris - 24th rated center

Ryan Bates - 42nd rated guard

Spencer Brown - 76th ranked guard

 

David Quessenberry - 68th ranked tackle

Bobby Hart - NR (guard) - Only played 128 snaps this year

Greg Van Roten - 52nd ranked guard

Ike Boettger - NR (guard) - Only played 6 snaps this year due to injury

 

 

WHY DON'T WE INVEST IN OUR OFFENSIVE LINE?!?!?! We have 2 guys on the team we've drafted since 2018 on the line. TWO. I won't even begin to go over who has been drafted for other teams that are solid starters now, after some of our busts draft picks.

 

FREE AGENTS

Ben Powers - G - Baltimore 

Isaac Seumalo  - G - Philly

Dalton Risner - G - Denver

Mike McGlinchey - T - SF

Orlando Brown Jr. - T - KC

Kaleb McGary - T - Atlanta

Jawaan Taylor - T - Jax

Kelvin Beachum - T - Arizona

 

We didn't invest in our OL for 5+ years because McD is a dumbass.

[Gunsgoodtime]

2 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

A bunch of years ago, Cowherd quoted an anonymous NFL scout saying the OL is the hardest position group to project to the NFL from college. This was due to the proliferation of single read spread offenses in college. No one is asked to hold a block while a QB runs through his progressions. The OTs that are easy to project go in the top of the first round while the others are all crapshoots. 

Won't get one if you don't draft or sign one.  That is why we are having this discussion now.  This a failure on the GM and coach

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

Whoever is making the decisions for the O line and D line.....Welp, all I can say is that they are a poor judge of talent.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

Just now, Gunsgoodtime said:

Won't get one if you don't draft or sign one.  That is why we are having this discussion now.  This a failure on the GM and coach

Exactly! Seeing posts like this and so many others in this thread makes me feel better about this horrific loss. Seriously, this loss bothered me more than almost any game in the last 30 or so years.  

[John from Riverside]

I mean that’s how the Chiefs did it. The Chiefs went all in on pass protection for Mahomes and they did a youth movement in their defense seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

[TheWeatherMan]

2 hours ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

Honestly sick of watching our quarter billion dollar QB run for his life on every play. When Josh has time to throw the ball, he might be one of the best QB's in league history... but we've invested so much into building a defense to stop Kansas City, which has been great during the regular season, we've done nothing to protect JA. 

 

I absolutely love Dion, but he's really-really bad. I just watched the edited down replay from the NFL today and he held or was smoked on EVERY DOWN. It's been an issue all for him. Somehow he's graded 24th in regards to tackles by PFF.

 

Let's review our draft picks for our OL the past few years... 

 

2022

Luke Tenuta - 6th round - released in the pre-season

 

2021

Spencer Brown - 3rd round - allowed 36 QB pressures in 2021. Allowed 42 pressures in 2022. He's currently ranked 76th in the NFL at the tackle position. There are teams with 4 tackles ranked higher than Spencer. 

Tommy Doyle - 5th round - Has never started in 2 years. Tore his ACL this year against Miami. His pass blocking grade is worse than Spencer's

Jack Anderson - 7th ground - Practice squad and now he's on the Giants roster. Was on the 2 deep for a while and graded out better than Brown and Doyle pass blocking in '22. 

 

2020

NONE DRAFTED

 

2019

Cody Ford - 2nd round - Now with the Cardinals. One of the worst rated guards in the NFL ever since he was drafted by Buffalo. 

 

2018

Wyatt Teller - 5th round - Traded to Cleveland in 2020 for 2 picks (ended up being Fromm and Hodgins). Teller is now one of the best guards in the NFL (2x All-Pro). He's rated 17th overall in the NFL. Side note: Cleveland has two of the best guards in the league with Teller and Bitonio.

 

Let's review the 2 deep.... 

 

Dion Dawkins - 24th rated tackle

Rodger Saffold - 74th rated guard

Mitch Morris - 24th rated center

Ryan Bates - 42nd rated guard

Spencer Brown - 76th ranked guard

 

David Quessenberry - 68th ranked tackle

Bobby Hart - NR (guard) - Only played 128 snaps this year

Greg Van Roten - 52nd ranked guard

Ike Boettger - NR (guard) - Only played 6 snaps this year due to injury

 

 

WHY DON'T WE INVEST IN OUR OFFENSIVE LINE?!?!?! We have 2 guys on the team we've drafted since 2018 on the line. TWO. I won't even begin to go over who has been drafted for other teams that are solid starters now, after some of our busts draft picks.

 

FREE AGENTS

Ben Powers - G - Baltimore 

Isaac Seumalo  - G - Philly

Dalton Risner - G - Denver

Mike McGlinchey - T - SF

Orlando Brown Jr. - T - KC

Kaleb McGary - T - Atlanta

Jawaan Taylor - T - Jax

Kelvin Beachum - T - Arizona

 

Agree on everything but I don’t think we can win with this coaching staff.  Doesn’t matter what our roster looks like, if Dorsey and Leslie are our coordinators, we are not going to the SB.  

[Bill from NYC]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

I mean that’s how the Chiefs did it. The Chiefs went all in on pass protection for Mahomes and they did a youth movement in their defense seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

The year before the Colts drafted Peyton Manning they drafted LT Tarik Glenn in round 1 and RT Adam Meadows in round 2. These were 2 excellent OTs. It works.

2 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Agree on everything but I don’t think we can win with this coaching staff.  Doesn’t matter what our roster looks like, if Dorsey and Leslie are our coordinators, we are not going to the SB.  

Agreed and I'm not at all thrilled with McDermott.

 

Jmo.

[ArdmoreRyno]

16 minutes ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

You can also add Wr to that list.  A 5th rounder dont really move the needle in that regard.  Either they change their mentality right now, or they die with their failures at defense and wasted draft capital 

 

So true. Yea... our NFL draft history for WR's... 

 

2022

Khalil Shakir - 5th round - Definitely can be a solid slot guy in the future, showed promise at the end of the season. 

 

2021

Marquez Stevenson - 6th round - Cleveland practice squad (never understood this pick, he had 300 yards his senior season at Houston)

 

2020

Gabe Davis - 4th round - CAN be a WR1a

 

2019

NONE

 

2018

Ray-Ray McCloud - 6th round - We waived him in 2020, now playing in the NFC Championship game

Austin Proehl - 7th round - Huh?

 

2017

Zay Jones - 2md round - Traded him for a 5th round pick. He had 546 yards last year for Vegas

 

[Gunsgoodtime]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

Exactly! Seeing posts like this and so many others in this thread makes me feel better about this horrific loss. Seriously, this loss bothered me more than almost any game in the last 30 or so years.  

I kind of felt it coming, so it was nowhere near as bad as last year for me.  The worst part of this year is that I feel like our current administration won't change their defense mentality and continue to use valued resources on defense yet again, resulting in the same thing as long as they are here. Btw, they are not very good at using resources on Defense either.  Almost every one of their picks have not played up to their draft position.  We probably have more draft capital and Fa money on the Dline than any other team since McDermott got here, and the DL is trash

[Bill from NYC]

1 minute ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

So true. Yea... our NFL draft history for WR's... 

 

2022

Khalil Shakir - 5th round - Definitely can be a solid slot guy in the future, showed promise at the end of the season. 

 

2021

Marquez Stevenson - 6th round - Cleveland practice squad (never understood this pick, he had 300 yards his senior season at Houston)

 

2020

Gabe Davis - 4th round - CAN be a WR1a

 

2019

NONE

 

2018

Ray-Ray McCloud - 6th round - We waived him in 2020, now playing in the NFC Championship game

Austin Proehl - 7th round - Huh?

 

2017

Zay Jones - 2md round - Traded him for a 5th round pick. He had 546 yards last year for Vegas

 

Agreed and I even think that you overrated Davis.

 

Jmo.

1 minute ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

 Btw, they are not very good at using resources on Defense either.  Almost every one of their picks have not played up to their draft position.  We probably have more draft capital and Fa money on the Dline than any other team since McDermott got here, and the DL is trash

Yes, and lots of dead cap space.

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

8 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Exactly! Seeing posts like this and so many others in this thread makes me feel better about this horrific loss. Seriously, this loss bothered me more than almost any game in the last 30 or so years.  

Really? I can think of like 10 other games the Bills have lost that are worse than this one.  I'm shocked that people are shocked that the Bengals whopped the Bills the way they did. 

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, BillyBilliams said:

Can you believe Bobby Hart played 97 snaps as an eligable receiver?  Are you ***** KIDDING ME?  

It’s because Doyle was hurt and OJ Howard was a wasted signing.  And also because Tommy Sweeney can’t cut it, Quinton Morris isn’t best suited for that type of role, and they decided to bury Reggie Gilliam this year.  So, yeah, that whole “go big” thing took an eligible receiver effectively out of play and still didn’t really serve to provide good protection.