Time to go all in on the OL - The grades

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

In fairness the last three games of last season plus the two playoff games, Allen was 113 out of 180 , 62.7%, 1310 yards, 14 TDs, 3 Ints (all in Atlanta game), 2 sacks and ran for 342 yards.  That was the point when they switched to Bates on the line.  The line they brought back this year was the same as last year except switched out Williams for Safford, flipped Bates to other side, and switched out line coach to supposedly one pretty much everyone here felt was better.

 

Meanwhile they couldn't sack the QB or stop the run all last year.

 

Looking at those two things can't fault them too much for putting resources on S line when you add in limited cap money.

[<bills4life>]

4 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

That's possible too, but once again gotta find a LT first.

Indeed.  Easier said than done. 😂   That’s why beane gets paid the big bucks. 

[Brandon]

I can mostly give Morse a pass because he's having to help a group of OGs that can't help themselves,  plus it was plainly evident that they were far worse as a team when he wasn't in the lineup.  The rest of them?  No more excuses and half-measures.  This front office needs to make multiple major upgrades on the OL this offseason. 

[khlax3]

I don’t see the bills giving up on brown but he has struggled at RT. It’s not common for a G to be 6-8 but they did have Doyle inside during camp this year some so they were willing to do it. Brown seems to struggle out in space even though he is super athletic. 
 

could a move to compete at guard help him so he is not on an island outside? Seems like it might be worth exploring because he is not cutting it at RT. 
 

At 6-8 311lbs and a RAS score of 10 if he could drop a few lbs could he also play that Lee smith blocking TE role for this team

[whorlnut]

38 minutes ago, NewEra said:

They overrated Saffold.  They thought they were getting a one year fix @ LG.  They thought wrong.  
 

Brown was drafted to be our RT.  He’s 6’8 and has back problems. They were hoping he’d be a solid RT.  They were wrong.

 

Bates looked to be an emerging starter.  We retained him. He was below average. 
 

Morse and Dawkins are solid starters.  Neither are great. 2 poor players- 1 below average player and 2 solid starters + a rookie OC that doesn’t really seem to have a plan = going home early. 
 

so now what?  Get a legit LG and RT.  Let brown be our swing tackle.  Might have to replace Morse too.  Beane has his work cut out for him.  Drafting OL doesn’t seem to be something our FO does well and we don’t have much $ until we start mortgaging the future. 

Saffold as a one year solution only really works if you have someone ready to step in after that one year. They didn’t do enough to get other guys in here to learn the system and step right in. 

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Saffold as a one year solution only really works if you have someone ready to step in after that one year. They didn’t do enough to get other guys in here to learn the system and step right in. 

i don’t think that’s the only way it works.  
 

it would’ve worked if he didn’t suck and we would’ve won the Super Bowl.  If he didn’t suck, we may have kept him next year.  Turns out, he sucked and we didn’t win the SB and we can’t bring him back next year.  
 

it didn’t work doubly because, as you said, they didn’t do enough to get guys in here to learn the system.  Maybe they thought Ike had a chance?  Idk….. but what they did regarding the OL failed and it was under a microscope because the key investments on D this past offseason didn’t even play yesterday and those that did were meh.  
 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

46 minutes ago, khlax3 said:

 

At 6-8 311lbs and a RAS score of 10 if he could drop a few lbs could he also play that Lee smith blocking TE role for this team

Re: Brown. I agree. I think he can be a very useful player. I just think it’s mostly a leverage thing given his body type that makes him unlikely to be a long term solution as a starting tackle. 
EDIT: Brown was kind of a George Fant type project. Fant had played a lot less football than Brown (he was almost purely a basketball player) but was a tall athletic guy that Pete Carrol saw as a project. Got pressed into action too soon and it was rough. Then started to show some of that promise as he learned the position and bulked up. Then went to the Jets this year where he was horrible …

Edited January 23, 2023 by The Frankish Reich

[H2o]

Nate Davis (TEN) is another G I would look at as well. Andre Dillard (PHI) or Calvin Anderson (DEN) might be worth a flier at T. The depth wouldn't hurt if nothing else became of them, but I do believe they would be upgrades to what we previously trotted out this year. 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Who was Morse's backup at C. Van Rotten?  Bates?  I feel like we've had decent C play when Morse has gone down.  Plus, with his concussion history, guy should retire and we can use his cap elsewhere.

It was Van Roten at first, but he had some snap issues, so the next time Morse was hurt they put Bates at C and Van Roten at RG. 

[mabden]

1 hour ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Besides can Frazier, this is absolutely gotta be plan 1B. Or 1A. I don't care how you do it but it must be done.

 

Plan 1A = Speed Wide Receiver 

Plan 1B = Offensive Line

[MrEpsYtown]

Brown is Mike McGlinchey. He is an okay player for the Niners who will be a free agent who took a long time to get good. . I really don't see an upgrade to Brown on the FA list. Jawaan Taylor is  very interesting guy in my world. Just 25 years old with some more upside to go. Kaleb McGary is probably by far the best guy on teh market. Same deal. long athletic guy who took awhile to put it together. He is going to cost a lot. Outside of McGary or Taylor, I would stick with Brown and let him grow into McGlinchey. 

 

Just to add, with all the cap space the Bears have and just a few good linemen in FA, how do you get them to come here? 

Edited January 23, 2023 by MrEpsYtown

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, colin said:

IMO it's more coaching and scheme than talent, because cinci had a not great line and it got hurt and they put out a trash heap and dominated our trash DL.  we obv do need talent, lots of it and fast, but the coaching and the scheme is a bigger and more fixable thing IMO

I respect your opinion very much but I have been hearing the same sad song for almost 30 years. Remember when Mouse McNally was going to make our OL great? Folks were saying that it was only bad because of the "scheme." Yeah well the line got worse with McNally. Levy and Jauron obviously valued the secondary above all else. Even Butler drafted Leodis McKelvin in round 1, passing on 2 great blockers  who were desperately needed. McDermott? As I said in another thread, he is a bald Dick Jauron. McDermott wanted a corner just so bad he traded away the pick for Mahomes and drafted one. 

 

Until I see it, I refuse to believe that the Bills will ever place adequate resources into blocking. Our blockers were beaten half to death yesterday. Did you see the Eagles OL trample the Giants? It works. 

 

Here were our most recent 1st Round offensive line draft picks:

1) Eric Wood - 2009 (With a pick we received for trading away HOF LT Jason Peters, who we lucked into)

2) Mike Williams - 2004

3) Ruben Brown 1995

 

Excellent post by the OP. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[colin]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respect your opinion very much but I have been hearing the same sad song for almost 30 years. Remember when Mouse McNally was going to make our OL great? Folks were saying that it was only bad because of the "scheme." Yeah well the line got worse with McNally. Levy and Jauron obviously valued the secondary above all else. Even Butler drafted Leodis McKelvin, passing on 2 great blockers  who were desperately needed. McDermott? As I said in another thread, he is a bald Dick Jauron. McDermott wanted a corner just so bad he traded away the pick for Mahomes and drafted one. 

 

Until I see it, I refuse to believe that the Bills will ever place adequate resources into blocking. Our blockers were beaten half to death yesterday. Did you see the Eagles OL trample the Giants? It works. 

 

Here were our most recent 1st Round offensive line draft picks:

1) Eric Wood - 2009 (With a pick we received for trading away HOF LT Jason Peters, who we lucked into)

2) Mike Williams - 2004

3) Ruben Brown 1995

 

Excellent post by the OP. 

 

well, i did type that we need OL talent, and fast, but i honestly think our scheme and planning is the biggest issue.

 

cinci didn't have better OL talent than us yesterday w the scrubs lining up, but they beat us because they were confident, prepared, and had a plan to attack us.  our team was emotionally spent, didn't practice enough during the week, and had a foolish dumb plan that didn't adjust at all for what cinci was doing nor for the weather.

 

line talent is needed big time, but our scheme upfront has to change on both sides of the ball or we will get a similar exit next year.

[Gunsgoodtime]

If I'm Terry and they even mention a Defensive pick in the top 3, im firing them on the spot

[BillyBilliams]

1 hour ago, dorquemada said:

I realize you can't replace the entire OL in one offseason.  Let's say we can keep 2 guys, who are they?  Is Dorkins worth keeping?

 

Morse and Dawkins you keep.  The rest can be fired into the sun

[The Frankish Reich]

7 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Here were our most recent 1st Round offensive line draft picks:

1) Eric Wood - 2009 (With a pick we received for trading away HOF LT Jason Peters, who we lucked into)

2) Mike Williams - 2004

3) Ruben Brown 1995

That’s just astounding. THREE first round O line picks in 27 years? No wonder why we always seem to have O line issues. 

[Gunsgoodtime]

2 hours ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

Honestly sick of watching our quarter billion dollar QB run for his life on every play. When Josh has time to throw the ball, he might be one of the best QB's in league history... but we've invested so much into building a defense to stop Kansas City, which has been great during the regular season, we've done nothing to protect JA. 

 

I absolutely love Dion, but he's really-really bad. I just watched the edited down replay from the NFL today and he held or was smoked on EVERY DOWN. It's been an issue all for him. Somehow he's graded 24th in regards to tackles by PFF.

 

Let's review our draft picks for our OL the past few years... 

 

2022

Luke Tenuta - 6th round - released in the pre-season

 

2021

Spencer Brown - 3rd round - allowed 36 QB pressures in 2021. Allowed 42 pressures in 2022. He's currently ranked 76th in the NFL at the tackle position. There are teams with 4 tackles ranked higher than Spencer. 

Tommy Doyle - 5th round - Has never started in 2 years. Tore his ACL this year against Miami. His pass blocking grade is worse than Spencer's

Jack Anderson - 7th ground - Practice squad and now he's on the Giants roster. Was on the 2 deep for a while and graded out better than Brown and Doyle pass blocking in '22. 

 

2020

NONE DRAFTED

 

2019

Cody Ford - 2nd round - Now with the Cardinals. One of the worst rated guards in the NFL ever since he was drafted by Buffalo. 

 

2018

Wyatt Teller - 5th round - Traded to Cleveland in 2020 for 2 picks (ended up being Fromm and Hodgins). Teller is now one of the best guards in the NFL (2x All-Pro). He's rated 17th overall in the NFL. Side note: Cleveland has two of the best guards in the league with Teller and Bitonio.

 

Let's review the 2 deep.... 

 

Dion Dawkins - 24th rated tackle

Rodger Saffold - 74th rated guard

Mitch Morris - 24th rated center

Ryan Bates - 42nd rated guard

Spencer Brown - 76th ranked guard

 

David Quessenberry - 68th ranked tackle

Bobby Hart - NR (guard) - Only played 128 snaps this year

Greg Van Roten - 52nd ranked guard

Ike Boettger - NR (guard) - Only played 6 snaps this year due to injury

 

 

WHY DON'T WE INVEST IN OUR OFFENSIVE LINE?!?!?! We have 2 guys on the team we've drafted since 2018 on the line. TWO. I won't even begin to go over who has been drafted for other teams that are solid starters now, after some of our busts draft picks.

 

FREE AGENTS

Ben Powers - G - Baltimore 

Isaac Seumalo  - G - Philly

Dalton Risner - G - Denver

Mike McGlinchey - T - SF

Orlando Brown Jr. - T - KC

Kaleb McGary - T - Atlanta

Jawaan Taylor - T - Jax

Kelvin Beachum - T - Arizona

 

You can also add Wr to that list.  A 5th rounder dont really move the needle in that regard.  Either they change their mentality right now, or they die with their failures at defense and wasted draft capital 

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, colin said:

 

well, i did type that we need OL talent, and fast, but i honestly think our scheme and planning is the biggest issue.

 

cinci didn't have better OL talent than us yesterday w the scrubs lining up, but they beat us because they were confident, prepared, and had a plan to attack us.  our team was emotionally spent, didn't practice enough during the week, and had a foolish dumb plan that didn't adjust at all for what cinci was doing nor for the weather.

 

line talent is needed big time, but our scheme upfront has to change on both sides of the ball or we will get a similar exit next year.

I don't deny that the scheme sucks. I just don't think that the Bills ever really cared about blocking. I think that it goes back to Ralph wanting to draft running backs to put "fannies in the seats," and then the Levy/Jauron "play not to lose" mentality which focused primarily on defensive backs.

 

Either way, thanks for the dialogue Bro!

[Billz4ever]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

That’s just astounding. THREE first round O line picks in 27 years? No wonder why we always seem to have O line issues. 

Yep, we always seem to try and do it on the cheap so we can fill up our roster spots with D-lineman.

[Gunsgoodtime]

2 hours ago, Governor said:

All of the resources go to McD’s silly defense. I don’t think Beane has any say. 5-6 years in and we still don’t have a single good lineman. That’s really hard to do.

 

Maybe they’re just afraid to draft another after the Cody Ford fiasco. Remember when they shot a video showing how much they pretended to want Ford?  Yeah, sure that was your target. Lol

They let the only good one they drafted go on top if it all!  Can't make that ***** up!