For the Dorsey Haters

[Lost]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:38 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

Dorsey is a problem.  He just is and for a lot of reasons.

 

Josh also has a problem where he sometimes does not make the better decision.  He is a gunslinger and has 100% confidence in his arm, and he should.  But he also needs to know you don't have to score on every play or get a big gain on every play.  It's ok to get 6 yards instead of firing a 30 yarder down field.  

 

My biggest concern:  Post Game Interview by Dorsey - He literally said they are trying to limit Josh and keep him safe.  To me, that is a huge flaw in Dorseys approach.  We are in "lose and go home" portion of the season, let Josh take off with his legs.  One thing that was painfully apparent was the lack of runs by Josh against Miami, something he has TORCHED them with on a regular basis.  Not only were we not flat out running the ball enough or effectively, but they took Josh's legs out of the game too much.  TURN JOSH LOOSE in that capacity.  

 

Against Cincy and likely KC next, running the ball and controlling the clock to limit the number of drives Mahomes and Burrow get will be huge.  I would much rather see Josh and the Bills take a 10+ play drive to score and chew up a bunch of time then score in say 5 or 6 plays.  That is where Josh needs to use his head and take what the defense is giving him rather than force lower percentage passes down field as frequently as he was trying against Miami.  

 

So for me, its a 2 part problem...some Dorsey and some Josh.  Do NOT neuter Josh, just call plays that scheme some easy throws open and have less guys running deep.  On several plays, we had 2 or 3 guys going deep with one underneath.  If Josh sees one of those deep guys get a step or one on one, he is gonna fire before he ever reaches his check down in his progressions.  

 

If we struggle to run, then scheme up some short throws or screens to the RB as an extension of the run game.  

 

 

I am not entirely happy with Dorsey's creativity in offensive playcalling/scheming this season but your take is kinda wrong here.   Miami ran safety spy on Josh Allen to keep him from running almost the entirety of the game.   That left the open 1on1 matchups outside which the Bills attempted to exploit.   If the gameplan should be to take what the defense gives you and what they are giving us is the deep ball then should we not take it?   The only drive that really irked me was when we threw back to back bombs on Gabe Davis followed by a JA sack on third down early in the 4th qtr.   There should be a time in the game where being efficient and consuming the clock as much as possible should start taking priority.

[Figster]

29 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Buffalo is money on 3rd down. #1 in the league from what I remember. 

There's not much of a drop off if any when you compare the 2021 regular season Bills O under Daboll to 2022 regular season Bills O under Ken Dorsey. While the rushing numbers are also similar the play calling of Dorsey has shown better game management skills IMO. I realize Bills HC McD has in all likelihood had some influence. Its McD's influence on the coaches around him including Ken Dorsey is what other teams want a piece of in my humble opinion. When you look at the immediate success Daboll and the G men have shown. Combined with the Bills O ranked near or at the top of the league in all major categories this season.

 

Ken Dorsey may not be with Buffalo next season.

 

On a side note and I know I sound like a broken record. Ryan Fitzpatrick knows the Chan Gailey play book as good as Gailey.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Figster

[Peter]

For the Dorsey hyper critics:

 

 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

On 1/16/2023 at 11:12 PM, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah just watched it.

 

I’m more convinced now than I was watching the game.

 

 

Josh and Dorsey know exactly what they’re doing.

 

Our media and fans who are clamoring for run plays and checkdowns are out their minds.

 

He makes the defense defend every blade of grass. 
 

Ignore our media, ignore the 4 yard checkdowns and make plays. 
 

Bombs away on the Pats = should have been 42-points on the board if Gabe doesn’t drop the ball. 
 

Yesterday he throws for 350 with a 50-yard drop from Shakir. 
 

Our QB is awesome and our OC recognizes that. 
 

But no media and fans, let’s run right out there are get Frank Reich or Joe Lombardi so we can lead the league in RB screens. 
 

 

Man I wish we would do more RB screens, that would be a thing of beauty once in awhile.

[Beck Water]

On 1/16/2023 at 9:51 PM, BillsFan130 said:

Some of those criticisms on Josh are ridiculous.

 

He called out Josh twice for throwing to Diggs 1 on 1 when he had his man beat?

 

You take that throw all day long..

 

There were probably 3-4 check downs he should have done,  but to call out like 10 of those plays is just harsh

 

Just FYI, Kendall Mirsky is a Cover1 regular - on Disguised Coverage with Anthony Prohaska often IIRC, and has been part of regular discussions on the design of Ken Dorsey’s  offense and its design and whether Josh Allen is forcing deep throws at times because he lacks higher percentage open options.

 

I don’t think his intent was to criticize Josh for every throw, but simply to point out that there were open shallower options designed into each of those plays, for those who feel that Josh does NOT have open options when he’s forcing the ball.

 

I think there’s also a need to be aware of down and distance.  The deep throw to Diggs was on 3rd and 15 and out of FG range.  A check down likely won’t cut it, might as well Go for the Gusto and if it’s picked, eh, it’s like a punt (and Diggs is turns into a pretty fierce defender).

 

The deep throw to Brown on 2nd and 10 when there were higher percentage options to make it 3rd and short, might be better to go for an open option underneath.

On 1/16/2023 at 10:15 PM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

At this point, we’ll maybe not the playoffs,  I would love to see a game where Allen intentionally does not throw beyond 8 -10 yards for the entire game. 
 

should really string a couple games like that together in the regular season  next year just to get the repetition drilled into his head. We know he will never lose that gunslinger mentality. He would literally be unstoppable if he took the short stuff at a higher percentage.

 

Um, if you go to NFL.com and look at nexgen stats, charts, I think you’ll find there were a couple of those this season

I can’t speak for the “intentional” part

[Beck Water]

On 1/16/2023 at 10:45 PM, HappyDays said:

What is the point of this clip? That we run short and deep routes on most plays? Think I noticed some intermediate routes sprinkled in too. Very interesting.

 

Mirsky has been part of discussions with Cover1 followers about whether Josh is forcing balls deep because he doesn’t have open options.

The point is that there were open options on most of these throws, not that Josh should always or even predominantly taken them.

 

IMO

 

 

On 1/17/2023 at 1:38 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

Dorsey is a problem.  He just is and for a lot of reasons.

 

Not good enough in a thread for “Dorsey haters”.  If you think he’s a problem, Cowboy Up and explain.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

44 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

 

Um, if you go to NFL.com and look at nexgen stats, charts, I think you’ll find there were a couple of those this season

I can’t speak for the “intentional” part

 

Weeks 1, 3 and 14 look like the closest thing. They all have at least six attempts 10+ yards down the field. But I mean it's unrealistic to expect all but one or two to be inside 10 yards so yeah those are pretty close. I'd be curious how Allen's percentage of deeper passes compares to Mahomes. Mahomes throws a ton of TD's inside the 10 yard line and even 5 yard line. Allen is the opposite and tends to lead the league in TD's greater than 20 air yards. 

[The Red King]

Um...Josh can be making mistakes and Dorsey can be as well.  These are not mutually exclusive.  Someone commenting on Josh's mistakes does not excuse Dorsey's.

[AlfaBill]

11 hours ago, Lost said:

 

 

I am not entirely happy with Dorsey's creativity in offensive playcalling/scheming this season but your take is kinda wrong here.   Miami ran safety spy on Josh Allen to keep him from running almost the entirety of the game.   That left the open 1on1 matchups outside which the Bills attempted to exploit.   If the gameplan should be to take what the defense gives you and what they are giving us is the deep ball then should we not take it?   The only drive that really irked me was when we threw back to back bombs on Gabe Davis followed by a JA sack on third down early in the 4th qtr.   There should be a time in the game where being efficient and consuming the clock as much as possible should start taking priority.

You can’t honestly think all the D gave was the deep pass? They went to that well too often. That was the problem. Josh took the blame at his last presser. No biggie. I bet they look great against the bengals team. 

[Billever76]

Dorsey has to do much better in the redzone and he needs to have a feel when our run game is killing them...he abandons the run at the worst times and once the field is condensed he lacks creativity of scheming guys open

On 1/16/2023 at 11:12 PM, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah just watched it.

 

I’m more convinced now than I was watching the game.

 

 

Josh and Dorsey know exactly what they’re doing.

 

Our media and fans who are clamoring for run plays and checkdowns are out their minds.

 

He makes the defense defend every blade of grass. 
 

Ignore our media, ignore the 4 yard checkdowns and make plays. 
 

Bombs away on the Pats = should have been 42-points on the board if Gabe doesn’t drop the ball. 
 

Yesterday he throws for 350 with a 50-yard drop from Shakir. 
 

Our QB is awesome and our OC recognizes that. 
 

But no media and fans, let’s run right out there are get Frank Reich or Joe Lombardi so we can lead the league in RB screens. 
 

[Alphadawg7]

13 hours ago, Beck Water said:

Not good enough in a thread for “Dorsey haters”.  If you think he’s a problem, Cowboy Up and explain.

I have in multiple other posts.  

[Beck Water]

12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I have in multiple other posts.  

 

OK, please feel free to point us at them.  Hit me in PM if you need to know how to link a previous post.

 

Totally fair not to rehash what you've previously spelled out, totally not good enough to leave it at "He just is, for reasons" and expect to be taken seriously in a thread specifically about Dorsey. 

 

18 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

 

Man I wish we would do more RB screens, that would be a thing of beauty once in awhile.

 

I think the "once in a while" is part of the problem. 

 

Eric Wood had a piece where he was discussing the Bills problems with screens and he said when the Bills were running them successfully under Gailey and with Roman as OC, they practiced them A LOT to get the timing down.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Beck Water

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, please feel free to point us at them.  Hit me in PM if you need to know how to link a previous post.

 

Totally fair not to rehash what you've previously spelled out, totally not good enough to leave it at "He just is, for reasons" and expect to be taken seriously in a thread specifically about Dorsey. 

 

 

I think the "once in a while" is part of the problem. 

 

Eric Wood had a piece where he was discussing the Bills problems with screens and he said when the Bills were running them successfully under Gailey and with Roman as OC, they practiced them A LOT to get the timing down.

 

We have Singletary who can catch, Cook who can take any pass to the house and Hines who is noted for his catching ability. There is no reason why we don't try more RB screen plays to use these players to our advantage.

[BillsBytheBay]

My QB throws three TDs in his bad games....

After the last twenty years....

My memory isnt short enough to complain.