Josh Allen Bashers, what's your solution?

[zow2]

Nick Wright killing Josh on the Cowherd show, lol.  Sheesh.  Says he plays like a maniac and his highs are high,,,but his basement is too far down.  Says the Chief and Bengals and maybe even the Eagles aren't in danger of their QB giving away the game and Bills fans should be very concerned about that.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

What purpose would I have to intentionally mislead? Why would your mind even consider that? It’s not like I’m an opposing team’s fan trashing on Allen. If anything it’d be that I got the numbers wrong - not intentionally - but just being careless, like the Bills are with the football 😅 I kid. Anyway, he had 14 INTs and 13 fumbles in the reg season. That’s 27. He had 3 fumbles and 2 INTs against the Dols. 27+5, there’s your 32. 

I only care about lost fumbles.  IMO it's very misleading to list INT's, lost fumbles and total fumbles in a single measure.  Why not include passes that were almost intercepted?  You might be able to up around 40.

 

 

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I only care about lost fumbles.  IMO it's very misleading to list INT's, lost fumbles and total fumbles in a single measure.  Why not include passes that were almost intercepted?  You might be able to up around 40.

 

 

Fumbles are fumbles, whether lost or retained, they keep stats of this. They don’t keep stats of “almost” INTs so that’s a silly argument. If Josh fumbled 32 times but the defense recovered 2, we’d still say “Josh needs to stop fumbling, lucky for us we’ve recovered almost all of them.” There’s nothing misleading about listing the number of fumbles and INTs combined, they’re stats in the record book. And Josh has a combined 32 in the regular season and the playoffs, most in the NFL. It is what it is, despite what you only care about. 

[CincyBillsFan]

4 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Nick Wright killing Josh on the Cowherd show, lol.  Sheesh.  Says he plays like a maniac and his highs are high,,,but his basement is too far down.  Says the Chief and Bengals and maybe even the Eagles aren't in danger of their QB giving away the game and Bills fans should be very concerned about that.

I heard him and Cowherd basically agreed with him.  First on Wright:

 

If Allen's basement is 3 TO's, 2 of which were not completely on him, 352 yards passing, 3 TD's, three times converting 3rd downs with his legs, generating 34 points and winning the game then that seems like a pretty high "low" to me.  And I haven't even mentioned in this supposed "basement" game that Allen came within two dropped passes of having over 400 yards passing and 4 TDs!  Wright is a carnival barker trying to drum up business.

 

And I noticed that Cowherd agreed with Wright THIS TIME. I listen to Cowherds show a lot and love it.  But over the last 3 years he has continuously gone from "Allen is awesome" to "Allen has issues". It's a roller coaster ride which is Cowherds style.  He does it all the time with other teams, players and coaches.

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

Fumbles are fumbles, whether lost or retained, they keep stats of this. They don’t keep stats of “almost” INTs so that’s a silly argument. If Josh fumbled 32 times but the defense recovered 2, we’d still say “Josh needs to stop fumbling, lucky for us we’ve recovered almost all of them.” There’s nothing misleading about listing the number of fumbles and INTs combined, they’re stats in the record book. And Josh has a combined 32 in the regular season and the playoffs, most in the NFL. It is what it is, despite what you only care about. 

No they aren't.  They keep the stat but always distinguish between the two.

 

 

[Golden]

4 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Nick Wright killing Josh on the Cowherd show, lol.  Sheesh.  Says he plays like a maniac and his highs are high,,,but his basement is too far down.  Says the Chief and Bengals and maybe even the Eagles aren't in danger of their QB giving away the game and Bills fans should be very concerned about that.

Nick makes his living off of getting reactions. One of my favorite nicknames I saw someone give him was “dollar store Skip”.  That being said, Colin Cowherd was one of the media trying to compare Josh to Favre, adding that the further Josh gets away from Dabol, the more reckless he gets.

Allen’s INT% in 2021 @2.3% (with Daboll) 
His INT% this year @2.5%
Also, it appeared as though the game plan against the Dolphins Cover 0, was to cut it loose & go long.  We don’t have insider info as to how much Josh goes off script or how much the game plans allow for that.  
 

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No they aren't.  They keep the stat but always distinguish between the two.

 

 

Have I ever said otherwise? 

Edited January 17, 2023 by JayBaller10

[BananaB]

19 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Nick Wright killing Josh on the Cowherd show, lol.  Sheesh.  Says he plays like a maniac and his highs are high,,,but his basement is too far down.  Says the Chief and Bengals and maybe even the Eagles aren't in danger of their QB giving away the game and Bills fans should be very concerned about that.

There isn’t a person on the planet who is more scared of Josh Allen than Nick Wright. It’s like he thinks Mahomes legacy is his own. Worse then listening to David Carr talk about his ***** brother

[CincyBillsFan]

13 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Nick Wright killing Josh on the Cowherd show, lol.  Sheesh.  Says he plays like a maniac and his highs are high,,,but his basement is too far down.  Says the Chief and Bengals and maybe even the Eagles aren't in danger of their QB giving away the game and Bills fans should be very concerned about that.

Wright must have forgotten the THREE INTERCEPTIONS that Mahomes threw in a game against Denver in KC.  The Chiefs were lucky to get off the field with a win that day. 

 

BTW, a smarter football guy then Wright would be a little more nuanced about the reasons behind Allen's relatively high TO numbers.  Having a problematic O-line and not exactly a lot of weapons other then Diggs forces Allen to press at times - both in throwing the ball downfield and in scrambling behind the line to avoid the rush.  Both of these things will lead to more INT's and fumbles (as the ball is hacked from his hand).

 

Interestingly if you listen to Cowherd he has often talked about the Bills struggles on the O line and their lack of big time weapons beyond Diggs.

 

Cowherd also has a pet theory about the issues associated with defensive minded head coaches in the current NFL environment favoring offenses- how their QB's and offenses lag behind the offensive minded head coaches teams.  I think Cowherd may be on to something here. At the same time McD has created a winning and strong culture in Buffalo so the Bills need to stick with him through thick & thin.  I just hope that if Cowherd is right and he may not be, that the Bills can be the exception to the rule here.

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

Nick Wright is a class A dumba$$ and Cowherd is right behind him. In a Favre like way ( not that Josh IS Favre) this is what you get with Josh Allen. There will be amazing plays that you’ll swear you’ve never seen the likes of, and other plays where you’ll swear at your TV set. The great and the good far outweigh the bad and that’s why Josh wins football games. Take away the things you don’t like and a lot of what you do like goes away. In essence you’d have a different player altogether. I, for one will just sit back and enjoy a ride I never thought I’d be on back in 2018. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

Nick Wright is a class A dumba$$ and Cowherd is right behind him. In a Favre like way ( not that Josh IS Favre) this is what you get with Josh Allen. There will be amazing plays that you’ll swear you’ve never seen the likes of, and other plays where you’ll swear at your TV set. The great and the good far outweigh the bad and that’s why Josh wins football games. Take away the things you don’t like and a lot of what you do like goes away. In essence you’d have a different player altogether. I, for one will just sit back and enjoy a ride I never thought I’d be on back in 2018. 

Bingo.  I just don't get the folks longing for those good old Kyle Orton & Rob Johnson days.

 

 

[Bruffalo]

I don't see much reason to bash Allen when his receiver talent is far worse than what we expected it to be coming into the season.  

 

He's put up similar numbers to Burrow but has a much less talented WR room.  He's been as good as Mahomes but never has had a Hill/Kelce type of combo in his career.  

 

The Bills also have a subpar O-Line. He's done more than any other QB in the league with less. You put Allen in the Bengals offense and they wouldn't have lost a game this season.  You put Tee Higgins on the Bills and the Bills are probably undefeated.  

[Golden]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Wright must have forgotten the THREE INTERCEPTIONS that Mahomes threw in a game against Denver in KC.  The Chiefs were lucky to get off the field with a win that day. 

 

BTW, a smarter football guy then Wright would be a little more nuanced about the reasons behind Allen's relatively high TO numbers.  Having a problematic O-line and not exactly a lot of weapons other then Diggs forces Allen to press at times - both in throwing the ball downfield and in scrambling behind the line to avoid the rush.  Both of these things will lead to more INT's and fumbles (as the ball is hacked from his hand).

 

Interestingly if you listen to Cowherd he has often talked about the Bills struggles on the O line and their lack of big time weapons beyond Diggs.

 

Cowherd also has a pet theory about the issues associated with defensive minded head coaches in the current NFL environment favoring offenses- how their QB's and offenses lag behind the offensive minded head coaches teams.  I think Cowherd may be on to something here. At the same time McD has created a winning and strong culture in Buffalo so the Bills need to stick with him through thick & thin.  I just hope that if Cowherd is right and he may not be, that the Bills can be the exception to the rule here.

 

 

Yes!

PM has Andy Reid, you cannot tell me that we have a gap there between Allen & Mahomes.  

[Buffalo Ballin]

Fumbles, even when Josh Allen recovers it, equates to loss yards most of the time which is a big deal. That's why we keep track of fumbles. Stop fumbling the ball.

 

I love Josh Allen's game though. But still, please stop fumbling it.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Buffalo Ballin

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

Fumbles, even when Josh Allen recovers it, equates to loss yards most of the time which is a big deal. That's why we keep track of fumbles. Stop fumbling the ball.

 

I love Josh Allen's game though. But still, please stop fumbling it.

Well one of the fumbles they're counting is the one that slipped out of Allen's hand and went out of bounds 8 yards PAST the LOS.

 

BTW, a sack is the same from a lost of yards perspective as a fumble recovered by Allen or an O-lineman.  So if you don't want fumbles while Allen is trying to avoid the rush and make a play downfield then Allen needs to just take the sack.  A lot of QB's do just that.  But if this was how he played then we would have missed out on some pretty big plays this year and you could probably add 15 - 20 sacks to our total.

 

Allen is always at elevated risk of a fumble from a D lineman hitting his arm as he negotiates the "pocket" looking downfield to make a throw.  We're just going to have to live with this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo Ballin]

12 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Well one of the fumbles they're counting is the one that slipped out of Allen's hand and went out of bounds 8 yards PAST the LOS.

 

BTW, a sack is the same from a lost of yards perspective as a fumble recovered by Allen or an O-lineman.  So if you don't want fumbles while Allen is trying to avoid the rush and make a play downfield then Allen needs to just take the sack.  A lot of QB's do just that.  But if this was how he played then we would have missed out on some pretty big plays this year and you could probably add 15 - 20 sacks to our total.

 

Allen is always at elevated risk of a fumble from a D lineman hitting his arm as he negotiates the "pocket" looking downfield to make a throw.  We're just going to have to live with this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

? Just merely stating why we keep track of fumbles. Cincinnati is fortunate that Josh Allen does cough up the ball. If Allen had great ball protection, we're blowing out the Bengals.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

7 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Well one of the fumbles they're counting is the one that slipped out of Allen's hand and went out of bounds 8 yards PAST the LOS.

 

BTW, a sack is the same from a lost of yards perspective as a fumble recovered by Allen or an O-lineman.  So if you don't want fumbles while Allen is trying to avoid the rush and make a play downfield then Allen needs to just take the sack.  A lot of QB's do just that.  But if this was how he played then we would have missed out on some pretty big plays this year and you could probably add 15 - 20 sacks to our total.

 

Allen is always at elevated risk of a fumble from a D lineman hitting his arm as he negotiates the "pocket" looking downfield to make a throw.  We're just going to have to live with this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly

 

Allen escapes sack by breaking tackles, rolls right and hits Knox for long TD - “Allen’s a beast, only a handful of QBs in history can do that.”

 

Allen attempts to escape sack and fumbles - “When will Allen learn to eat it and give up on the play.  We need to seriously question if Allen is a franchise QB,”

 

or

 

Allen hits Diggs for a 52 yd bomb - “hell yeah, what a throw”

 

Allen misses Diggs on a 52 yd bomb - “What are you doing dammit, Singletary was open underneath for 5 yd gain; you need to channel your inner Tyrod Taylor.”

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

? Just merely stating why we keep track of fumbles. Cincinnati is fortunate that Josh Allen does cough up the ball. If Allen had great ball protection, we're blowing out the Bengals.

Maybe not, because you’re not getting  some of the good stuff then. All that considered , if Allen loses a fumble in this game I don’t think the Bills win. No  turnovers in minus territory and they win by 6. Clean turnover game plus a takeaway and I like the Bills by 10.

[Buffalo Ballin]

14 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Maybe not, because you’re not getting  some of the good stuff then. All that considered , if Allen loses a fumble in this game I don’t think the Bills win. No  turnovers in minus territory and they win by 6. Clean turnover game plus a takeaway and I like the Bills by 10.

He can still protect the ball and STILL make plays. He didn't cough it up the previous 2 years like this.

[DrPJax]

5 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Josh has a combined 32 INTs and fumbles on the year (including playoffs) most in the NFL. He always says “I’ve gotta do a better job protecting the ball,” but then the game starts and well… 

 

The offense often feels like it has ADHD and can’t have that surgical focus for an entire 60 mins. How much more dangerous would the Bills be if they seldom turned the ball over? Hopefully those gaffes won’t be our undoing. Beane did say the playoffs are often a microcosm of the season, exposing what ails the team the most.

      Perfect summary of the situation.   Many posters , in the chats during the  game , anywhere on the planet will condemn you if as just a football fan , even as an avid Josh and Bills fan for decades , you commit the horrible crime of stating an opinion that Josh can at times make mistakes. 😉. This despite Mcd saying clearly we played poor complimentary football and we must take care of the ball and both Josh and Dorsey “ wished “ they had a play or series of called plays back in his post game presser.   Again , even being a supporter for years doesn’t seem to permit mentioning you should not expect certain types of  errors from a 5 th year qb / 6 th year head coach  .  I think your ideas are spot on.  ! 😀 It’s crazy , Dan Fetes, a good natured guy,  just put up a YouTube on Buffalo plus apologizing for saying Josh could have done better!  It’s crazy he felt compelled to defend such a harmless statement!  Certain elements of the fan community needs to get help, stay off social media, take a walk!  
 

     One enjoyable experience is hearing the same , mob like mentality statement, “nothing matters but the W and nothing carry’s through to the next game “ , as if that’s the only thing or end result that is allowed to be learned or gained from participating in watching and discussing an event that lasted over  4 hours  of your life, and a hobby most on here  have spent years  enjoying and learning about.
      There is unfortunately a DARK Tetrad  ( well researched and published data about anonymous online behavior or online trolls ) of traits  of anonymous DENOUNCERS  , being they tend  to be narcissistic ( people who believe they deserve social status having never actually earned it  ), Machiavellian ( manipulate others to get what they want, regardless of outcome to others ) , psychopathic ( parasitic and predatory and willing to exploit people ), and sadistic ( taking a delight in seeing others fail ) , and that TETRAD  of traits will be brought to bare against anyone being even mildly  critical of 17 in any way , even tho we all have progressed in our lives and careers experiencing CONSTRUCTIVE ( very key word , done in a positive manner , not destructive) criticism.
      His coaches are supposed to be critical and he seems to expect some Job critique, but  offering an opinion even agreeing with his own REPETITION of issues is akin to kicking a puppy, a 6’5”, 245 LBish puppy who leaps tall men to protect himself!  Just watch the response tho, as mentioning such admitted errors is evil !🤪 !  Lol!  Terrible, right? 
 

     I really respect/ enjoyed  your thoughts on how MUCH MORE dangerous we COULD be, and hopefully these gaffes won’t be the Bills undoing against better teams. The pattern of INTS & FUMBLES  ( we have heard dbs knowing Josh will put the ball up in danger in situations, and you can bet they noticed how often he is exposing the ball in the pocket scrambling or out running  and fumbling , just as they did for backs like Tiki Barber in the past) DOES CARRY Over or the numbers wouldn’t be building and teams wouldn’t watch film looking for ways to get an edge against an upcoming opponent.  
Them’s FACTS!  🤔. So , while the ultimate goal is  easily stated to WIN & ADVANCE , to just simplify things to the point of believing Josh or the Bills have no influence over that process based on PRIOR GAME  performance seems short sighted. Coaching staffs matter, better ones win in the NFL  by adapting and based on the last 3 turnover , 17 point blown lead game, this staff needs to provide strategy to overcome some clear flaws across the o line, Josh’s decisions , etc.  
 

      
     I think Dorsey has NOT been as influential or demanding ( like Daboll who has influenced Allen and now Jones with a 0 TO  playoff win)  and that’s possibly why we have not seen the ball security issues reigned in.  Ultimately it comes back to SEAN’s  responsibility and his level of tolerance of issues that hurt team performance.  Dorsey will improve with time , but if they don’t want to waste a great year of resilience and success so far , Mcd needs to stand by his press statements & enforce while practicing that the level  of performance against Miami  is NOT LIKELY CHAMPIONSHIP quality. I mean, it could be adequate, but seems unlikely doesn’t it?  
There is no time left  to HOPE they don’t keep turning the ball over just because they keep promising they won’t keep shooting themselves is an actual solution. I think Mcd / Dorsey need to step up and actually perform well situationally and get Josh on board ; they won’t ruin his instincts by demanding things like he quit carrying the football like Shady!  😉. I do hope they treat these guys, while playing , as serious enemies and don’t let down because that might be human nature after going thru the Hamlin situation together. It’s great they were compassionate, but not they need an a$$ kicking!  

   
I don’t know , but most owners / bosses I have worked under actually expect accountability and the GREAT ones give you tools to keep advancing against adversity and struggles. Now is the point where don’t want to  get eliminated based on ignoring simple errors you have identified and promised won’t keep recurring; the Bills have not been able to even compete for their ultimate goal since the 90’s and I think solving the turnover issue can get them there.  Could be an insightful time regarding certain coaching careers;  Marv at least got there 4 x!  And hey, it’s just words and an opinion; I wouldn’t even treat a sore throat without discussing options for the best outcome.  People have to be allowed to talk, throw out opinions safely or the community becomes a dogma mafia !  👍😊 Go Bills! 

[CincyBillsFan]

13 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

      Perfect summary of the situation.   Many posters , in the chats during the  game , anywhere on the planet will condemn you if as just a football fan , even as an avid Josh and Bills fan for decades , you commit the horrible crime of stating an opinion that Josh can at times make mistakes. 😉. This despite Mcd saying clearly we played poor complimentary football and we must take care of the ball and both Josh and Dorsey “ wished “ they had a play or series of called plays back in his post game presser.   Again , even being a supporter for years doesn’t seem to permit mentioning you should not expect certain types of  errors from a 5 th year qb / 6 th year head coach  .  I think your ideas are spot on.  ! 😀 It’s crazy , Dan Fetes, a good natured guy,  just put up a YouTube on Buffalo plus apologizing for saying Josh could have done better!  It’s crazy he felt compelled to defend such a harmless statement!  Certain elements of the fan community needs to get help, stay off social media, take a walk!  
 

     One enjoyable experience is hearing the same , mob like mentality statement, “nothing matters but the W and nothing carry’s through to the next game “ , as if that’s the only thing or end result that is allowed to be learned or gained from participating in watching and discussing an event that lasted over  4 hours  of your life, and a hobby most on here  have spent years  enjoying and learning about.
      There is unfortunately a DARK Tetrad  ( well researched and published data about anonymous online behavior or online trolls ) of traits  of anonymous DENOUNCERS  , being they tend  to be narcissistic ( people who believe they deserve social status having never actually earned it  ), Machiavellian ( manipulate others to get what they want, regardless of outcome to others ) , psychopathic ( parasitic and predatory and willing to exploit people ), and sadistic ( taking a delight in seeing others fail ) , and that TETRAD  of traits will be brought to bare against anyone being even mildly  critical of 17 in any way , even tho we all have progressed in our lives and careers experiencing CONSTRUCTIVE ( very key word , done in a positive manner , not destructive) criticism.
      His coaches are supposed to be critical and he seems to expect some Job critique, but  offering an opinion even agreeing with his own REPETITION of issues is akin to kicking a puppy, a 6’5”, 245 LBish puppy who leaps tall men to protect himself!  Just watch the response tho, as mentioning such admitted errors is evil !🤪 !  Lol!  Terrible, right? 
 

     I really respect/ enjoyed  your thoughts on how MUCH MORE dangerous we COULD be, and hopefully these gaffes won’t be the Bills undoing against better teams. The pattern of INTS & FUMBLES  ( we have heard dbs knowing Josh will put the ball up in danger in situations, and you can bet they noticed how often he is exposing the ball in the pocket scrambling or out running  and fumbling , just as they did for backs like Tiki Barber in the past) DOES CARRY Over or the numbers wouldn’t be building and teams wouldn’t watch film looking for ways to get an edge against an upcoming opponent.  
Them’s FACTS!  🤔. So , while the ultimate goal is  easily stated to WIN & ADVANCE , to just simplify things to the point of believing Josh or the Bills have no influence over that process based on PRIOR GAME  performance seems short sighted. Coaching staffs matter, better ones win in the NFL  by adapting and based on the last 3 turnover , 17 point blown lead game, this staff needs to provide strategy to overcome some clear flaws across the o line, Josh’s decisions , etc.  
 

      
     I think Dorsey has NOT been as influential or demanding ( like Daboll who has influenced Allen and now Jones with a 0 TO  playoff win)  and that’s possibly why we have not seen the ball security issues reigned in.  Ultimately it comes back to SEAN’s  responsibility and his level of tolerance of issues that hurt team performance.  Dorsey will improve with time , but if they don’t want to waste a great year of resilience and success so far , Mcd needs to stand by his press statements & enforce while practicing that the level  of performance against Miami  is NOT LIKELY CHAMPIONSHIP quality. I mean, it could be adequate, but seems unlikely doesn’t it?  
There is no time left  to HOPE they don’t keep turning the ball over just because they keep promising they won’t keep shooting themselves is an actual solution. I think Mcd / Dorsey need to step up and actually perform well situationally and get Josh on board ; they won’t ruin his instincts by demanding things like he quit carrying the football like Shady!  😉. I do hope they treat these guys, while playing , as serious enemies and don’t let down because that might be human nature after going thru the Hamlin situation together. It’s great they were compassionate, but not they need an a$$ kicking!  

   
I don’t know , but most owners / bosses I have worked under actually expect accountability and the GREAT ones give you tools to keep advancing against adversity and struggles. Now is the point where don’t want to  get eliminated based on ignoring simple errors you have identified and promised won’t keep recurring; the Bills have not been able to even compete for their ultimate goal since the 90’s and I think solving the turnover issue can get them there.  Could be an insightful time regarding certain coaching careers;  Marv at least got there 4 x!  And hey, it’s just words and an opinion; I wouldn’t even treat a sore throat without discussing options for the best outcome.  People have to be allowed to talk, throw out opinions safely or the community becomes a dogma mafia !  👍😊 Go Bills! 

Most of us are fine with criticizing Allen as long as its objective & fair.  And yes if Allen throws 2 INT's and loses a fumble that leads to a TD against the Bengals the Bills may lose the game. 

 

But sorry if I don't buy into the idea that DaBold had Allen "under control" and Dorsey just let's Allen do what he wants and even feeds Allen's "recklessness".  Because when I look at the numbers none of this is true.  So in order to compare the last 2 seasons using 17 games I took the liberty of adding the Miami playoff game as the Bills 17th game:

 

2021 Allen/DaBold

Passing yards = 4407   Passing TD's = 36   INT's = 15

Rushing yards = 763  Rushing TD's = 6  Lost fumbles = 3

Total Yards = 5170   Total TD's = 42   Total TO's = 18

Record 11 - 6

 

2022 Allen/Dorsey

Passing yards = 4635   Passing TD's = 38   INT's = 16

Rushing yards = 783  Rushing TD's = 7  Lost fumbles = 6

Total Yards = 5417   Total TD's = 45   Total TO's = 22

Record 14 - 3

 

Allen/Dorsey had a better record, more TD's, more yards and more TO's.  The TO differential of 4 is spread out over 17 games!  That's about 1 more TO every 4 games.  Sorry but I don't see any evidence that Allen has regressed or that Dorsey has produced a different outcome with Allen then DaBold did.