Question for OC Dorsey

[Logic]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The point is the struggles are imaginary

No they're not.

Here's a number for you: 31 points. That's how many points the Dolphins scored. Why? Not because off offensive prowess on their part. Their absolutely awful offense, led by their absolutely awful third string QB, scored 31 points. Why? How?

It was largely because the Bills offense turned the ball over to them THREE times. That happened. That was real life.

A positive final outcome or scoring output does not mean that the offense did not struggle for stretches of the game.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

No they're not.

Here's a number for you: 31 points. That's how many points the Dolphins scored. Why? Not because off offensive prowess on their part. Their absolutely awful offense, led by their absolutely awful third string QB, scored 31 points. Why? How?

It was largely because the Bills offense turned the ball over to them THREE times. That happened. That was real life.

A positive final outcome or scoring output does not mean that the offense did not struggle for stretches of the game.

It's not struggling. It's learning as a fan to accept higher variance outcomes because of the scheme. If that hasn't been made abundantly clear over the course of this season there's not much more to say.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

No they're not.

Here's a number for you: 31 points. That's how many points the Dolphins scored. Why? Not because off offensive prowess on their part. Their absolutely awful offense, led by their absolutely awful third string QB, scored 31 points. Why? How?

It was largely because the Bills offense turned the ball over to them THREE times. That happened. That was real life.

A positive final outcome or scoring output does not mean that the offense did not struggle for stretches of the game.

 

And gave them 2 short fields with special teams blunders.

[Logic]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

It's not struggling. It's learning as a fan to accept higher variance outcomes because of the scheme. If that hasn't been made abundantly clear over the course of this season there's not much more to say.

If turning the ball over three times and allowing a vastly inferior opponent to hang around and almost getting eliminated from the playoffs in a historic upset doesn't constitute "struggling" but only "high variance due to scheme", then the scheme is a big problem, and we have vastly different definitions of what "struggling" means.

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

If turning the ball over three times and allowing a vastly inferior opponent to hang around and almost getting eliminated from the playoffs in a historic upset doesn't constitute "struggling" but only "high variance due to scheme", then the scheme is a big problem, and we have vastly different definitions of what "struggling" means.

 

2nd in yards

 

2nd in points

 

it's a you problem

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

No they're not.

Here's a number for you: 31 points. That's how many points the Dolphins scored. Why? Not because off offensive prowess on their part. Their absolutely awful offense, led by their absolutely awful third string QB, scored 31 points. Why? How?

It was largely because the Bills offense turned the ball over to them THREE times. That happened. That was real life.

A positive final outcome or scoring output does not mean that the offense did not struggle for stretches of the game.

some of it was special teams also…2 of the dolphins fg drives started on the 40 after kickoffs.  

 

that Beasley int was just bad luck imo and it gave Miami an extra short field before halftime when they shouldn’t have seen the ball again.  
 

I just don’t get the people saying ‘just throw it underneath’ because that Beasley play is how the underneath receivers were being covered for most of the game.  Miami seemed to be getting away with murder holding wise from where I was sitting…the underneath receivers were getting absolutely mugged and it looked like the defense was flooding the middle.  Davis/diggs were beating the jam and the sidelines were the place to attack 

[kjack151]

15 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

Dorsey has a lot of faults. But Josh is not blameless in this either. Some questionable decisions. The interception down deep. The handoff to Cook that was supposed to be a run. He’s been making mistakes all season that we haven’t really seen for a few years. 

To this point, I think we are seeing the effects of Daboll’s absence.  Last playoff season the Bills offense was crisp and mistake free - Josh threw no interceptions nor made this many questionable throws.  Dorsey is still learning the nuances of being an OC and I believe he’ll get better; it’s just unfortunate that he doesn’t have that luxury during the playoffs.  Also, he’s not as creative as Daboll.  It seems that every 3rd down for 5 or more yards we go with the “empty” set (five wide receivers).  In its formation we’ve seen many times how when a play breaks down that Josh is able to run. But lately teams have adjusted to this which is why he’s had limited success scrambling.  Why don’t we employ Gilliam and Morris more?  I think they can create mismatches.  These are just my observations and in no way am I an expert. One more thing - I think for the first time in a long time the offense actually ran the ball on 4 consecutive plays.  They need to do more of this in my opinion.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

11 minutes ago, Logic said:

If turning the ball over three times and allowing a vastly inferior opponent to hang around and almost getting eliminated from the playoffs in a historic upset doesn't constitute "struggling" but only "high variance due to scheme", then the scheme is a big problem, and we have vastly different definitions of what "struggling" means.

 

Should’ve dropped 50+ on them yesterday…people are talking like josh was just winging the ball deep into triple coverage.  Nearly all of those deep balls were open for tds 

 

im all for criticizing him when he deserves it but the deep shots in single coverage was what the defense was giving us this game.  Shakir dropped an easy one,  diggs was wide open for a td the first play of the game,  Davis back to back on that late series had open tds…the list goes on. Hit one more of those and the game is never that close even with the turnovers 

 

it was really a high variance defense I would say…not a high variance offense.  Miami was going for broke every play and they dodged a ton of bullets.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

2nd in yards

 

2nd in points

 

it's a you problem

Your responses in this thread all show that you haven't read much of what I've had to say around these parts.

I've been a constant defender of Dorsey and of the offense as a whole. I don't want him fired, I don't want wholesale changes, I simply acknowledge the reality that they go through stretches during games where they make life harder on themselves with dumb mistakes. 

Conceding that they're a very good offense and a very good team and statistically productive does NOT mean that you have to pretend that they never struggle during a game.

Putting your hands over your eyes whenever the offense makes boneheaded plays that ultimately make games more difficult for the Bills than they need to be, and then just pointing to stats and saying "LA LA LA THEY NEVER MESS UP" is ignoring reality.

If you honestly feel like the offense played a perfect game yesterday, didn't make any mistakes, and that any and all criticism of portions of the offensive performance is unwarranted, then we're done here. We can just agree to disagree. It's fine.

[ColoradoBills]

14 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Please make things easier for Josh.  Run game, short passes, something that doesn’t require a highlight play almost every snap.  So many parallels to Elway before Denver got him a running game.  

 

The question you may want to ask is, does Josh want to play that way?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

21 minutes ago, kjack151 said:

To this point, I think we are seeing the effects of Daboll’s absence.  Last playoff season the Bills offense was crisp and mistake free - Josh threw no interceptions nor made this many questionable throws.  Dorsey is still learning the nuances of being an OC and I believe he’ll get better; it’s just unfortunate that he doesn’t have that luxury during the playoffs.  Also, he’s not as creative as Daboll.  It seems that every 3rd down for 5 or more yards we go with the “empty” set (five wide receivers).  In its formation we’ve seen many times how when a play breaks down that Josh is able to run. But lately teams have adjusted to this which is why he’s had limited success scrambling.  Why don’t we employ Gilliam and Morris more?  I think they can create mismatches.  These are just my observations and in no way am I an expert. One more thing - I think for the first time in a long time the offense actually ran the ball on 4 consecutive plays.  They need to do more of this in my opinion.  

This honestly feels like the twilight zone around here haha…idk how Dorsey is getting any blame for this game…i don’t really get how Josh’s decision making is getting blame either..  he didn’t have a great game but it looked like accuracy issues to me. Early on he threw some not great balls to receivers that could’ve gotten a ton of rac with a better throw.  He also missed a bunch of routine deep ball tds and shakir wide open over the middle late in the game.  
 

If Miami is giving you a free td down the sideline on every play though because they want to jam up the middle of the field , you go for it.  

Maybe it’s because I was at the game and it looked different on tv idk,  but those deep shots he was taking were wiiide open tds/huge gains 90% of the time.  this wasn’t him trying to laser balls into double coverage or anything like that which we have seen in the past. 
 

we had two tds overturned by inches, shakir with a huge 50 yard drop, josh overthrowing a bunch of deep ball tds.  Miami dodged a ton of bullets.  They probably should’ve lost this game like 50+ to 38(they had some big plays dropped too) even with those turnovers 

 

that's kind of how it goes when you’re selling out to blitz on most plays and jamming all the receivers…you’re going to come up with some big defensive plays but you’re gonna get scored on a lot.  They’re lucky it wasn’t more 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Billsatlastin2018]

16 hours ago, Einstein said:

His offense scored 34 points despite having 3 turnovers.

Solid.

 

Most of us did not like what we saw yesterday, in particular Allen going for an immediate bomb up 17-0 when one more multi play march should have sealed it. 

Too many bombs, too few check offs.

NO more of those shite Josh/OC decisions going forward ! 

Not good enough against Cinci nor KC nor the 49ers!

Aaaand, home cooking reffing didn’t hurt!

 

GO 🦬!

3 to go!

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

22 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

The question you may want to ask is, does Josh want to play that way?

No qb in the league is going to pass up outside receivers in single coverage that get multiple steps on their defender lol I just don’t understand what people think they saw yesterday.  anyone would make those throws every single time.  

 

we just barely hit enough of them yesterday when we should’ve connected quite a few more times. Josh’s accuracy didn’t seem great.  If we hit two more of those which we very well should have, that’s an easy cover even with the turnovers and we would’ve outgained them about 600-300 (gave them a few deep ball completions because they dropped a few also)

Edited January 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

No qb in the league is going to pass up outside receivers in single coverage that get multiple steps on their defender lol I just don’t understand what people think they saw yesterday.  anyone would make those throws every single time.

 

we just barely hit enough of them yesterday when we should’ve connected quite a few more times. Josh’s accuracy didn’t seem great.  

 

Totally agree on QBs targeting the one-on-one but a lot of teams would have the receivers peel off a little more vs the number of deep

balls we've seen.  Then again, no QB has the rocket that Josh has and not many QBs can stand in the pocket (or roll and evade) the

all out blitz's like Josh can.

[Solomon Grundy]

34 minutes ago, kjack151 said:

To this point, I think we are seeing the effects of Daboll’s absence

He put in a masterclass in coaching yesterday!! Both with Danny Dimes and game management

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

No qb in the league is going to pass up outside receivers in single coverage that get multiple steps on their defender lol I just don’t understand what people think they saw yesterday.  anyone would make those throws every single time.  

 

we just barely hit enough of them yesterday when we should’ve connected quite a few more times. Josh’s accuracy didn’t seem great.  If we hit two more of those which we very well should have, that’s an easy cover even with the turnovers and we would’ve outgained them about 600-300 (gave them a few deep ball completions because they dropped a few also)

Josh’s accuracy was fine. He overshot Diggs on first drive ( not unusual for him on early series)and there was no issue on his part with the 1 on 1 to Brown. Of course you take that shot; it looked like Brown lost the ball in the sun or broke the wrong way. The other INT went off Beasleys hands right to a defender. The OL had issues and Josh needed to just cover up and take the sack. That scoop and score was a bit reckless on his part. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

15 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Josh’s accuracy was fine. He overshot Diggs on first drive ( not unusual for him on early series)and there was no issue on his part with the 1 on 1 to Brown. Of course you take that shot; it looked like Brown lost the ball in the sun or broke the wrong way. The other INT went off Beasleys hands right to a defender. The OL had issues and Josh needed to just cover up and take the sack. That scoop and score was a bit reckless on his part. 

He missed those two deep shots to Davis in a row where he was wide open both times/ diggs on the first play / missed a wide open shakir over the middle late in the game but yea I don’t blame him for the brown ball at all.  I was sure that was a td when it was in the air then it looked like brown ran the wrong route.  

there were a few plays early on where receivers had to dive to catch balls when they could’ve been hit in stride.  
 

I do agree though, outside of the fumble I really didn’t have any problem with the decision making or the playcalling.  Miami was really aggressive on defense which is going to yield some turnovers but they were lucky to not give up another 20+ points.  They weren’t really giving up anything short over the middle and they were stuffing the run in the second half 
 

I think people are trying to fit this game into the narrative they previously had about the bills offense when it really doesn’t fit imo.  Those balls down the sideline is what the dolphins defense was giving us…they weren’t forced throws at all.  

people are talkin about those deep throws like they were 50/50 balls but the receivers were wide open on the vast majority of them.  There was one insane throw to diggs across the whole field that somehow hit him right in the hands but other than that it was all receivers who beat their man 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Niagara Bill]

39 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

He missed those two deep shots to Davis in a row where he was wide open both times/ diggs on the first play / missed a wide open shakir over the middle late in the game but yea I don’t blame him for the brown ball at all.  I was sure that was a td when it was in the air then it looked like brown ran the wrong route.  

there were a few plays early on where receivers had to dive to catch balls when they could’ve been hit in stride.  
 

I do agree though, outside of the fumble I really didn’t have any problem with the decision making or the playcalling.  Miami was really aggressive on defense which is going to yield some turnovers but they were lucky to not give up another 20+ points.  They weren’t really giving up anything short over the middle and they were stuffing the run in the second half 
 

I think people are trying to fit this game into the narrative they previously had about the bills offense when it really doesn’t fit imo.  Those balls down the sideline is what the dolphins defense was giving us…they weren’t forced throws at all.  

people are talkin about those deep throws like they were 50/50 balls but the receivers were wide open on the vast majority of them.  There was one insane throw to diggs across the whole field that somehow hit him right in the hands but other than that it was all receivers who beat their man 

 

It appears to me that at times there is a lack of imagination. Too much bread and butter.

A young inexperienced coach can get too cautious under pressure and forget what got them there. Dorseys heart must be racing and only experience can keep your head clear with all that adrenaline. He has all the weight, last year he shared it.

Bringing Cole back helped in his processing but he misses keeping a wide field for much of the game. 

I don't mean to poop on him, just realize he is not yet Dabol or Reid, but he will get there.

[somnus00]

17 hours ago, Simon said:

 

That was bothering me too.

I do think the depth the Phish secondary was setting up in ahd something to do with that.

They were still available with some minor tweaking though.

 

This is a great post.

I hated the fact that the turnover came on first down but at that point in the game they were having really good success finding openings in the secondary on 1st downs and I get what he was trying to do on that particular down. I wonder what Josh passed up to chuck that prayer instead; I'd bet that one of his first two options was available and he couldn't help himself

If i remember correctly, both Singletary and Morris were open in space. Same with the strip sack for 6. Two guys open on short routes.

 

I love Josh and his killer instinct. But getting into a rhythm with short/ intermediate stuff increases the chances of hitting the deep ball.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

2nd in yards

 

2nd in points

 

it's a you problem

I enjoy your posts and respect your acumen.  You have to be the most optimistic Bills fan I’ve encountered. I can’t recall one negative post that you’ve ever made.  
 

that said-  there are things to worry about.  A poor Miami D sacked us 7 times, Josh fumbled 3 times and threw 2 picks. The OL is terrible in pass protection.  Our OC only dialed up zero targets for Cook and motor. 
 

It’s not the end of the world and next week is a new game. A new game plan and hopefully better play from the OL can bring better results. Our offense is great- but it was way too 17 dependent yesterday behind an OL that couldn’t protect him.