Is Josh the de facto OC?

[Inigo Montoya]

3 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

You asked a question 🤔 

 

Can't argue that point, you're right!  

 

😄

[JoPoy88]

30 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Regardless of what you think, the offence to me has been off most of the year.  20+ points is not the issue with this offence, but there are too many 3 & outs and disjointed drives.

 

I will repeat over and over that it is because we don't have simple pitch & catch plays and receivers don't make those tough catches and Josh seems to have to will the Bills too many times.

too many 3 and outs huh…

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

too many 3 and outs huh…

Yep.  Check the box scores.  5 straight punts vs. NYJ, third quarter vs. Miami, even NE Sunday there were three drives of 6 or less plays (ignore the fumbles too).   

 

Heck after the first 3 weeks we were comparing Martin to the Maytag Repair man. 

[JoPoy88]

11 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep.  Check the box scores.  5 straight punts vs. NYJ, third quarter vs. Miami, even NE Sunday there were three drives of 6 or less plays (ignore the fumbles too).   

 

Heck after the first 3 weeks we were comparing Martin to the Maytag Repair man. 

so the facts that they were 2nd in scoring, 1st in 3rd down efficiency, and Martin punted 2.8 times a game (fewest) don’t matter to you then. 

I don’t know who “we” are, but I don’t remember making that lame comparison.

[Beck Water]

31 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep.  Check the box scores.  5 straight punts vs. NYJ, third quarter vs. Miami, even NE Sunday there were three drives of 6 or less plays (ignore the fumbles too).   

 

Heck after the first 3 weeks we were comparing Martin to the Maytag Repair man. 

 

How about if we check some data? 

 

-Sam Martin 29th in punting for the league, 45 punts.  Still 29th in punting even if you correct for 17 games

-#2 in PPG with 28

-#1 in 3rd down conversion % with 50.3%

-even with our vaunted RZ woes, ended the season #9 in RZ % with 60.3%

 

Comparing Martin to the Maytag Repair Man over the 1st 3 weeks was a bit silly given that we had 4 offensive TO against the Rams.  It's not a Good Thing to keep your punter bored on the bench if you change possession with fumbles or picks.  Much better to "end every possession with a kick".

[Mrbojanglezs]

No I don't get that vibe from him. I definitely think he has a say in the room about what plays are designed or what plays he likes or has the power to audible but no

Edited January 10, 2023 by Mrbojanglezs

[Just in Atlanta]

The Real OC

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

How about if we check some data? 

 

-Sam Martin 29th in punting for the league, 45 punts.  Still 29th in punting even if you correct for 17 games

-#2 in PPG with 28

-#1 in 3rd down conversion % with 50.3%

-even with our vaunted RZ woes, ended the season #9 in RZ % with 60.3%

 

Comparing Martin to the Maytag Repair Man over the 1st 3 weeks was a bit silly given that we had 4 offensive TO against the Rams.  It's not a Good Thing to keep your punter bored on the bench if you change possession with fumbles or picks.  Much better to "end every possession with a kick".

Anyone who thinks the Bills offence (based on expectations) is running efficiently, I don't know what to say to them.🙄

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Anyone who thinks the Bills offence (based on expectations) is running efficiently, I don't know what to say to them.🙄

 

We can discuss that, but first let's discuss your contention that the Bills have "too many 3 and outs" while they're factually LEADING THE LEAGUE in 3rd down conversion, and 29th for number of punts.

 

How do you reconcile those things?  I'll hang up and listen.

[Buffalo Boy]

3 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

I wonder what percentage of successful plays are a result of Dorsey's play design and call versus Josh going off-script and just making something happen?  With the offensive line play this year Josh hasn't had many opportunities to sit in the pocket and go through his reads and deliver the ball.  There seems to be very few quick hitters called by Dorsey for Josh.  On just about every snap some defender seems to come clean forcing Josh out of the pocket and into a scramble drill.

 

This season there are so many examples of Josh making something happen when the called play goes sideways.  Those points from off schedule Josh ad libs are probably the difference in a half dozen victories this year.  The Knox and Brown TDs this week were Josh doing Josh things.  When you also factor in the yardage and drive saving first downs from Josh making something happen with his legs, I think Josh is more often than not the on-field de facto OC.

 

Mahomes can definitely pull a rabbit out of his hat when he has to, but it seems like that the KC pass offense runs through Andy Reid 95% of the time.  I would guess the Bills are closer to 50%. There isn't another QB in the league who pulls their OC's fat out of the fire more often than Josh does. 

 

Dorsey is getting an interview for the Panthers head coaching vacancy.  If Dorsey gets that job he needs to buy Josh a Rolex. 

 

 

   “ Arm arrogance “ was the joke a few years ago.

    I see a qb who has desire to disregard the easy throw (5-10 gains) and consistently try to make a splashier play. 
    The Rams game, he came out and hit the quick pass over and over, the first Miami game was the same. 
    As the season has progressed he seems to hold the ball longer than necessary while trying to hit the long ball. He has thrown some stupid picks because of this.

   I don’t discount the O line woes which play a part but as much as I LOVE him as our QB, he could use an OC who made home play a more disciplined style. This would include more handoffs and dump offs and rb screens.

[JoPoy88]

22 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Anyone who thinks the Bills offence (based on expectations) is running efficiently, I don't know what to say to them.🙄

I guess you wouldn’t know what to say, considering:

 

2nd in yards/drive

2nd in points/drive

2nd in overall drive success rate

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/overall-drive-statsoff/2022
 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

His % completion is right there with most QB's and he does take underneath stuff.  The issue is there are no receivers running or schemed open.  Our backs are underutilized and when was the last time a screen was drawn up that gained 15+ yards.

 

Again look at the YAC #'s that are not good.

i don’t know what it is but the Bills screen game this season is the worst thing I’ve ever seen. 

39 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   “ Arm arrogance “ was the joke a few years ago.

    I see a qb who has desire to disregard the easy throw (5-10 gains) and consistently try to make a splashier play. 
    The Rams game, he came out and hit the quick pass over and over, the first Miami game was the same. 
    As the season has progressed he seems to hold the ball longer than necessary while trying to hit the long ball. He has thrown some stupid picks because of this.

   I don’t discount the O line woes which play a part but as much as I LOVE him as our QB, he could use an OC who made home play a more disciplined style. This would include more handoffs and dump offs and rb screens.

I feel like Daboll asserted himself with more authority to keep him in check while Dorsey is more like the cool uncle 

[Billsfan1972]

36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

We can discuss that, but first let's discuss your contention that the Bills have "too many 3 and outs" while they're factually LEADING THE LEAGUE in 3rd down conversion, and 29th for number of punts.

 

How do you reconcile those things?  I'll hang up and listen.

Built on #'s early in the season.  

 

Then there was an issue with turnovers, which ended many drives.  

 

Of course add to that NYJ certainly caused problems and weather was a factor in some games.  The third quarter vs. Miami after an uber efficient first half was concerning.  

 

The concerns for me is that the Bills offense has sputtered of late and we have not seen those games like at the end of 2020 and 2021 (NE & KC).  I expect a lot more from the Bills and maybe that clouds my judgement.

 

The Bills basement is 20-24 points a game, their ceiling should be in the 40's, but we've not seen that high end scoring for a long-time. 

15 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

I guess you wouldn’t know what to say, considering:

 

2nd in yards/drive

2nd in points/drive

2nd in overall drive success rate

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/overall-drive-statsoff/2022
 

 

Say whatever you want, the eye test says different.  This should be the most efficient team in the NFL.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I am not concerned with who anyone wants to call the OC. My concern is that Josh needs better in-game mentoring. His next level of development must be in taking the wide open underneath receivers. They are there on every play! I’m hoping he learns that if he starts doing that early, the deeper stuff will naturally materialize. I think it’ll come with time. 

I think with more talent at WR, this whole take the checkdown point would become irrelevant. 

 

The Bills gave Gabe the chance at the #2 role and if the Bills don't decide to pursue an upgrade there, then the shortfalls look evident. The hands aren't great, he doesn't high point or Moss defenders, he doesn't really break tackles, there doesn't appear to be a variety of routes, the routes he runs aren't super crisp. 

 

He looks like a guy who has to have a couple of steps on the defender and the ball has to be in front of him. He can get to the sidelines, we've seen that, but he is not loose in the hips to come back to the ball or run double moves, or slants all that often. 

 

McKenzie in the slot seems to get lost much of the time, my belief, is because of size. He does make some plays on scramble type drills. 

 

The Bills have Knox, but what if he was paired with a Gesicki? Or Mayer in the Draft? 

 

The Bills have an A+ QB, and an A+ WR1. But my hope is Beane doesn't stop trying to get more skill and speed on the outside for Josh, and even a better TE2. 

 

Kurt Warner showed the checkdowns are there, but Allen's DNA is push. And that's okay with me, otherwise, what are you really asking for? You're asking for Josh to get even better. Take the check downs when he has to, but always keep and eye open for the big play. 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think with more talent at WR, this whole take the checkdown point would become irrelevant. 

 

The Bills gave Gabe the chance at the #2 role and if the Bills don't decide to pursue an upgrade there, then the shortfalls look evident. The hands aren't great, he doesn't high point or Moss defenders, he doesn't really break tackles, there doesn't appear to be a variety of routes, the routes he runs aren't super crisp. 

 

McKenzie in the slot seems to get lost much of the time, my belief, is because of size. He does make some plays on scramble type drills. 

 

The Bills have Knox, but what if he was paired with a Gesicki? Or Mayer in the Draft? 

 

The Bills have an A+ QB, and an A+ WR1. But my hope is Beane doesn't stop trying to get more skill and speed on the outside for Josh, and even a better TE2. 

 

Kurt Warner showed the checkdowns are there, but Allen's DNA is push. And that's okay with me. 

All of that is true but you go the playoffs with the roster you have, not the one you wish you had. Watch the replays of the recent games and you’ll see open receivers standing all alone either in the flat or right over the middle, time and time again. I can only assume that Josh is looking for bigger plays. I pray that habit doesn’t sink us in the playoffs. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

All of that is true but you go the playoffs with the roster you have, not the one you wish you had. Watch the replays of the recent games and you’ll see open receivers standing all alone either in the flat or right over the middle, time and time again. I can only assume that Josh is looking for bigger plays. I pray that habit doesn’t sink us in the playoffs. 

I agree with all of that. 

WRs are RBs and Knox are open and Allen does bypass them. 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I agree with all of that. 

WRs are RBs and Knox are open and Allen does bypass them. 

 

 

I loved what I saw from Josh in last year’s playoffs. It was like he suddenly discovered Singletary was just sitting there underneath, right in front of the dropping LBs (much like Kelly used Thurman to keep drives alive) and those dump down passes made the deep ball work even better. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   “ Arm arrogance “ was the joke a few years ago.

    I see a qb who has desire to disregard the easy throw (5-10 gains) and consistently try to make a splashier play. 
    The Rams game, he came out and hit the quick pass over and over, the first Miami game was the same. 
    As the season has progressed he seems to hold the ball longer than necessary while trying to hit the long ball. He has thrown some stupid picks because of this.

   I don’t discount the O line woes which play a part but as much as I LOVE him as our QB, he could use an OC who made home play a more disciplined style. This would include more handoffs and dump offs and rb screens.

Feels like Daboll asserted himself with more authority to keep Josh in check while Dorsey is more like that uncle that doesn’t want to seem uncool 

[frostbitmic]

29 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Built on #'s early in the season.  

 

Then there was an issue with turnovers, which ended many drives.  

 

Of course add to that NYJ certainly caused problems and weather was a factor in some games.  The third quarter vs. Miami after an uber efficient first half was concerning.  

 

The concerns for me is that the Bills offense has sputtered of late and we have not seen those games like at the end of 2020 and 2021 (NE & KC).  I expect a lot more from the Bills and maybe that clouds my judgement.

 

The Bills basement is 20-24 points a game, their ceiling should be in the 40's, but we've not seen that high end scoring for a long-time. 

Say whatever you want, the eye test says different.  This should be the most efficient team in the NFL.

This team scores 30+ points and looks out of sorts all the time.

 

Most teams 30+ points is a miracle

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

27 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I loved what I saw from Josh in last year’s playoffs. It was like he suddenly discovered Singletary was just sitting there underneath, right in front of the dropping LBs (much like Kelly used Thurman to keep drives alive) and those dump down passes made the deep ball work even better. 

Ekeler caught 107 passes this year and the Chargers scored 23.0 ppg (13th in the NFL). 

 

So only one example there, but checking down can only get you so far. 

 

I use the Chargers because that is another rocket armed QB, with issues the type of WRs he has to work with and style of the OC. 

 

I can agree with others, that this offense should have been closer to 30 ppg with less red zone turnovers.