Is Josh the de facto OC?

[Inigo Montoya]

I wonder what percentage of successful plays are a result of Dorsey's play design and call versus Josh going off-script and just making something happen?  With the offensive line play this year Josh hasn't had many opportunities to sit in the pocket and go through his reads and deliver the ball.  There seems to be very few quick hitters called by Dorsey for Josh.  On just about every snap some defender seems to come clean forcing Josh out of the pocket and into a scramble drill.

 

This season there are so many examples of Josh making something happen when the called play goes sideways.  Those points from off schedule Josh ad libs are probably the difference in a half dozen victories this year.  The Knox and Brown TDs this week were Josh doing Josh things.  When you also factor in the yardage and drive saving first downs from Josh making something happen with his legs, I think Josh is more often than not the on-field de facto OC.

 

Mahomes can definitely pull a rabbit out of his hat when he has to, but it seems like that the KC pass offense runs through Andy Reid 95% of the time.  I would guess the Bills are closer to 50%. There isn't another QB in the league who pulls their OC's fat out of the fire more often than Josh does. 

 

Dorsey is getting an interview for the Panthers head coaching vacancy.  If Dorsey gets that job he needs to buy Josh a Rolex. 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Inigo Montoya

[Dablitzkrieg]

No

[Inigo Montoya]

5 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

No

 

Thank you for your valuable contribution to the conversation.

 

🙂

[Billsfan1972]

I think the majority of Allen fans thinks that is the case.  Too much seemingly broken plays and improvisation by Josh (Cooks and Davis TDs that were rabbits pulled out of hats).

 

The Knox TD, give the line credit they gave him time, but NE was wary of Allen running.

 

The Diggs TD only Allen could make that 65 yard throw (and he did not step into it).  

 

So seldom do we see easy completions and receivers running open on let's say a wheel route or a simple swing with 10 yards of open field ahead.  

 

As said two things we don't see are the easy wide open receptions or the 50/50 or difficult ones.

 

However once in a while we see a good play call, just no where near often enough.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[WhoTom]

I think it's somewhere in between: Dorsey calls plays that Josh can modify as needed. I see a lot of option plays, whether they're run-pass options or QB options where he might hand off or he might run it himself, depending on how the D looks at the time of the snap. I also notice Josh calling quite a few audibles.

 

Josh is an improviser - that's part of his style, so any OC who wants to be successful had better run an offense that allows him to wing it.

 

[MJS]

Off script plays and scramble rules are a part of modern NFL offenses.

[eball]

I think the whole design of this offense is based around what you have at the QB position.  A play is called, and Josh has multiple options and decisions he can make.  Dorsey absolutely "calls" the game, but Josh's intelligence and knowledge of the offense allows him to make adjustments on the fly.

 

Those who oversimplify by saying Josh is "calling the game" are doing Dorsey a disservice.

 

[ajmac]

The Bills offense does rely on superhuman plays and very rarely do we scheme guys open like KC and SF. Dorsey and this “multiple offense” are constantly pushing the ball downfield trying to take advantage of Josh’s arm talent. I get it, but our guys don’t always run the correct routes and this then forces Josh to go off script as most of the route concepts are 5 and 7 step drops. That forces the O-line to protect for north of 4 seconds and that causes breakdowns.

We very rarely scheme up 3 step or quick throws with in breaking routes. The kind of routes that can set up RAC yards. We very rarely run scheduled screens and Josh doesn’t take the check downs when they are open.

This offense is a “push the ball down the field and put massive pressure on DB’s to cover. It eventually breaks down and we get plays, but it’s a tough thing to watch because there will be three and outs if we can’t convert on 3rd downs for more than 8 yards.

It may be a tough watch, but I understand what they are doing. Ask D coordinators?! They hate it too. I am not saying I agree, but I understand why they do it. 
 

Use Superman to make Superman efforts and watch them try to stop it.

 

Let’s hope Superman can stay healthy for 4 more games. 💪🏼‼️🙏

[K D]

Josh is running my flag football offense. They call the play but then he just runs it himself or points to the receiver to go deep.

[Inigo Montoya]

Just now, MJS said:

Off script plays and scramble rules are a part of modern NFL offenses.

 

No argument there, the question I wonder about is what the breakdown is between schedule vs off schedule for the Bills.  I would guess the Bills have a higher percentage of off schedule plays than anyone.  The incredible thing is that it is so successful.

 

There is a famous line from a German general during WWII when asked why it was so hard to fight the American army.  He said that all warfare is chaos and the American army practices chaos on a daily basis.  That's how I see the Bills offense with Allen.

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I think its designed around the strengths of the QB as it should be. Of course Josh has input into what he's comfortable with and likes vs not. Dorsey does a pretty good job in my view of not trying to put Blinders on Josh as some would do.

[SoCal Deek]

I am not concerned with who anyone wants to call the OC. My concern is that Josh needs better in-game mentoring. His next level of development must be in taking the wide open underneath receivers. They are there on every play! I’m hoping he learns that if he starts doing that early, the deeper stuff will naturally materialize. I think it’ll come with time. 

[Don Otreply]

Imo, outside of a not so good O line, Josh not taking the open short pass with minor frequency is a notable part of why we struggle at times, again, imo, taking the short stuff will make the rest of the offensive scheme click, and just plain wear out / demoralize defenses with greater efficiency. But what the “ F “ do I know…, 

[colin]

josh is a magician who gets stuff off of script and out of broken plays like no one else in the nfl.

 

he also is in an offense that attacks the whole field and he nearly never hits the quick outlet guy quickly.  a couple of those a game, especially early, and some slight wrinkles and this O becomes just a horrible nightmare to D.

[MJS]

11 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

No argument there, the question I wonder about is what the breakdown is between schedule vs off schedule for the Bills.  I would guess the Bills have a higher percentage of off schedule plays than anyone.  The incredible thing is that it is so successful.

 

There is a famous line from a German general during WWII when asked why it was so hard to fight the American army.  He said that all warfare is chaos and the American army practices chaos on a daily basis.  That's how I see the Bills offense with Allen.

Even if they have a higher percentage of off schedule plays, Dorsey is a part of making that possible as well. But surely everything is easier when you have an elite QB.

[Billsfan1972]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I am not concerned with who anyone wants to call the OC. My concern is that Josh needs better in-game mentoring. His next level of development must be in taking the wide open underneath receivers. They are there on every play! I’m hoping he learns that if he starts doing that early, the deeper stuff will naturally materialize. I think it’ll come with time. 

His % completion is right there with most QB's and he does take underneath stuff.  The issue is there are no receivers running or schemed open.  Our backs are underutilized and when was the last time a screen was drawn up that gained 15+ yards.

 

Again look at the YAC #'s that are not good.

[pocoboy]

52 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

I wonder what percentage of successful plays are a result of Dorsey's play design and call versus Josh going off-script and just making something happen? 

 

 

1. A large part of the 2020's style offense relies on the QB's read. I'm assuming each play-call has several alterations that can be made on the fly based on QB read.
2. If those reads are not correct, that has a decent chance of rendering the play-call ineffective, as the QB could choose an option that is ill-suited for the defensive call.
3. I believe that you need to have someone (OC, Passing Game Coordinator, QB Coach?) who would be unwinding the play at practice to help communicate to the QB and other skill players how best to optimize plays...whether by using eyes, feints, motion, etc.
4. I am worried that the change from Daboll to Dorsey has led to 3) being compromised in some fashion.
5. Thus when the pass play breaks down because a read is incorrect, the next step is to backyard-ball it.

Edited January 10, 2023 by pocoboy

[Livinginthepast]

Ive been wondering this since the beginning of the season. How many positive plays are 100% on Josh and his brilliance. It seemed to me that Dabol scripted more plays that actually worked than Dorsey has but I would love to see some sort of real breakdown of this.

[Donuts and Doritos]

[GoBills808]

19 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

Ive been wondering this since the beginning of the season. How many positive plays are 100% on Josh and his brilliance. It seemed to me that Dabol scripted more plays that actually worked than Dorsey has but I would love to see some sort of real breakdown of this.

This has been the offense for the last three years