Fake-Fat Sunny Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Its hard to imagine anything tougher than a parent having to bury their kid. The parents do seem to be in a space where they feel honored by the choices of this former NFL player, but feel fairly used and abused by the choices of the military in how/when they told the truth to the family and public about his death. This former NFL star paid the ultimate price for you and I. Its a shame that the actions of military brass seem to have extended the time and way his family continues to pay that price. Tilllman's parents vent anger at Army FAMILY RESOLVED TO BEING IN DARK OVER SON'S DEATH By Josh White Washington Post Former NFL player Pat Tillman's San Jose family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss. More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's ``lies'' about what happened have made them suspicious, and they are certain they will never get the full story. ``Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did,'' Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. ``The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting.'' Tillman, a Leland High School graduate and a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy. In separate interviews in San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death. The latest investigation, reported by the Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot. Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. The Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after the nationally televised memorial service in San Jose that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004. Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given the family. He decried what he calls a ``botched homicide investigation'' and accuses high-ranking Army officers of presenting ``outright lies'' to the family and to the public. ``After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this,'' Patrick Tillman said. ``They purposely interfered with the investigation. They covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy.'' Army representatives maintain the Army has done everything it can to keep the family informed about the investigation, offering to answer relatives' questions and going back to them as investigators gathered more information. Army officials said Friday that the Army ``reaffirms its heartfelt sorrow to the Tillman family and all families who have lost loved ones during this war.'' Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, an Army spokesman, said the Army acts with compassion and heartfelt commitment when informing grieving families, often a painful duty. ``In the case of the death of Cpl. Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family,'' Brooks said. ``For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes.'' Brooks said the Army has ``actively and directly'' informed the Tillman family regarding investigations into his death and has dedicated a team of soldiers and civilians to answering the family's questions through phone calls and personal meetings while ensuring the family ``was as well informed as they could be.'' With each new version of events, Mary Tillman's mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men. ``It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way,'' she said. ``You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest.'' Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command to face discipline for ``dishonorable acts.'' ``Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore,'' he said. ``Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has.''
PromoTheRobot Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Its hard to imagine anything tougher than a parent having to bury their kid. The parents do seem to be in a space where they feel honored by the choices of this former NFL player, but feel fairly used and abused by the choices of the military in how/when they told the truth to the family and public about his death. This former NFL star paid the ultimate price for you and I. Its a shame that the actions of military brass seem to have extended the time and way his family continues to pay that price. Tilllman's parents vent anger at Army FAMILY RESOLVED TO BEING IN DARK OVER SON'S DEATH By Josh White Washington Post Former NFL player Pat Tillman's San Jose family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss. More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's ``lies'' about what happened have made them suspicious, and they are certain they will never get the full story. ``Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did,'' Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. ``The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting.'' Tillman, a Leland High School graduate and a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy. In separate interviews in San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death. The latest investigation, reported by the Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot. Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. The Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after the nationally televised memorial service in San Jose that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004. Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given the family. He decried what he calls a ``botched homicide investigation'' and accuses high-ranking Army officers of presenting ``outright lies'' to the family and to the public. ``After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this,'' Patrick Tillman said. ``They purposely interfered with the investigation. They covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy.'' Army representatives maintain the Army has done everything it can to keep the family informed about the investigation, offering to answer relatives' questions and going back to them as investigators gathered more information. Army officials said Friday that the Army ``reaffirms its heartfelt sorrow to the Tillman family and all families who have lost loved ones during this war.'' Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, an Army spokesman, said the Army acts with compassion and heartfelt commitment when informing grieving families, often a painful duty. ``In the case of the death of Cpl. Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family,'' Brooks said. ``For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes.'' Brooks said the Army has ``actively and directly'' informed the Tillman family regarding investigations into his death and has dedicated a team of soldiers and civilians to answering the family's questions through phone calls and personal meetings while ensuring the family ``was as well informed as they could be.'' With each new version of events, Mary Tillman's mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men. ``It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way,'' she said. ``You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest.'' Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command to face discipline for ``dishonorable acts.'' ``Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore,'' he said. ``Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has.'' 342317[/snapback] None of this is a surprise from a government that went to war over WMD's that never existed. PTR
KRC Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 None of this is a surprise from a government that went to war over WMD's that never existed. PTR 342328[/snapback] Iraq never had WMD's? You should let the IAEA and UN know that they were wasting their time since the end of GWI. All those inspections and resolutions were for nothing. Also, you need to let the Iranians know that all the deaths they incurred from Iraq's WMD's were just an illusion. Also, while you are at it, let the Kurds know that the thousands slaughtered via Iraqi WMD did not actually die. Funny, you seem to know something that the ENTIRE WORLD didn't.
Alaska Darin Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 The Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family 342317[/snapback] Silly Army, waiting until you know exactly what happened to tell the family. Once again, "journalism" only to get the lemmings in a tizzy about pretty much nothing. Newsflash: Combat sucks. Alot of people with weapons shooting at alot of other people equipped similiarly. Sometimes bad things happen. Too bad we all can't just get along.
zow2 Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 The parents are angry and bitter,,,,very understandable. If the Army really wanted to cover it up, however, they would not have given his father volumes of witness statements and investigative documents. Tillman joined the Rangers which is incredibly risky and brave. No one made him join.
boomerjamhead Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 At what point do we finally stop talking about Pat Tillman? Disclaimer - my friend knows his parents and shares thier loss.
Pete Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 At what point do we finally stop talking about Pat Tillman? Disclaimer - my friend knows his parents and shares thier loss. 342727[/snapback] May we never stop talking about Pat Tillman!
Ghost of BiB Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 None of this is a surprise from a government that went to war over WMD's that never existed. PTR 342328[/snapback] And folks like you really know so little of what actually goes on that I barely even comment on this stuff anymore.
jarthur31 Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Silly Army, waiting until you know exactly what happened to tell the family. Once again, "journalism" only to get the lemmings in a tizzy about pretty much nothing. Newsflash: Combat sucks. Alot of people with weapons shooting at alot of other people equipped similiarly. Sometimes bad things happen. Too bad we all can't just get along. 342606[/snapback] Darin, I respect you. However, friendly fire catastrophes can be avoided with great communication and execution. Neither, it seems, came into play that fateful day. I don't believe the military emphasizes these points enough. They seem pressured by the media for instant results which is a stupid thing, IMHO.
PromoTheRobot Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 And folks like you really know so little of what actually goes on that I barely even comment on this stuff anymore. 342784[/snapback] Funny...I could make the same comment about people like you. PTR
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Funny...I could make the same comment about people like you. PTR 342821[/snapback] The ignorance of that statement is absolutely astounding. Please tell us, what kind of "people" is "Ghost of BiB" that he knows so little about this?
MDH Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Iraq never had WMD's? You should let the IAEA and UN know that they were wasting their time since the end of GWI. All those inspections and resolutions were for nothing. Also, you need to let the Iranians know that all the deaths they incurred from Iraq's WMD's were just an illusion. Also, while you are at it, let the Kurds know that the thousands slaughtered via Iraqi WMD did not actually die. Funny, you seem to know something that the ENTIRE WORLD didn't. 342334[/snapback] I'm so sick of the right wing's attempts to spin this thing into some positive direction. If the Clinton administration had done the exact same thing the Bush admistration did the right wing would be lambasting them, but since its "their guy" the right finds any and every way to make excuses. Its why I'm sick of both the Dems and the Reps, they're so busy defending "their side" that they lose interest in any semblence of what's right.
GG Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 I'm so sick of the right wing's attempts to spin this thing into some positive direction. If the Clinton administration had done the exact same thing the Bush admistration did the right wing would be lambasting them, but since its "their guy" the right finds any and every way to make excuses. Its why I'm sick of both the Dems and the Reps, they're so busy defending "their side" that they lose interest in any semblence of what's right. 342828[/snapback] Funny me, but I read it as a direct response to a wayward post. Just the plain facts.
erynthered Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 I'm so sick of the right wing's attempts to spin this thing into some positive direction. If the Clinton administration had done the exact same thing the Bush admistration did the right wing would be lambasting them, but since its "their guy" the right finds any and every way to make excuses. Its why I'm sick of both the Dems and the Reps, they're so busy defending "their side" that they lose interest in any semblence of what's right. 342828[/snapback] Where in that post was anything said about Clinton or Bush. What he posted was fact.
PromoTheRobot Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 The ignorance of that statement is absolutely astounding. Please tell us, what kind of "people" is "Ghost of BiB" that he knows so little about this? 342825[/snapback] It's pretty obvious we are on different sides of the fence. You obviously want to believe in everything the Bush administration says and does. I find the dishonestly, coverups and lies from our current leaders indefensable. The right always reacts the same way to bad press...liberal bias...beating a dead horse...blah, blah. But they don't seem to care one bit whether it's true or not! That's because, frankly, the truth is the enemy of the right. The truth is inconvenient. The truth won't help to recruiting. The truth makes us question what is really going on. Sorry, bud...the truth is a B word. PTR
GG Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 It's pretty obvious we are on different sides of the fence. You obviously want to believe in everything the Bush administration says and does. I find the dishonestly, coverups and lies from our current leaders indefensable. The right always reacts the same way to bad press...liberal bias...beating a dead horse...blah, blah. But they don't seem to care one bit whether it's true or not! That's because, frankly, the truth is the enemy of the right. The truth is inconvenient. The truth won't help to recruiting. The truth makes us question what is really going on. Sorry, bud...the truth is a B word. PTR 342834[/snapback] I would agree with the above, if it came from a person who's actually neck deep in the thing you like to call a quagmire. (ps - Tillman was killed in Afghanistan for people who are geographically challenged)
Bad Things Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 How DARE they say bad things about the Military!!! We should send these whiners to Gitmo. Rumsfelds ethics and candor are unquestionable!
/dev/null Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Thread being moved to PPP in: 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
stuckincincy Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 War is a hard business. Most every day starts and stops with a fog. You will lose them if you become a Pollyanna organization, and choices about what to say run up and down the ranks from top to bottom. In battle, it is a mistake to admit a mistake; it's poor thinking that may well cause other casualties. There are not nor should there be daily parent-teacher conferences. If you want to be petted, and bask the glow of idealty, keep out of the military. I suspect the late Mr. Tillman would not be pleased with the parsing that is occuring. Respect his death.
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