Would you consider the Boogie Basham pick to be a disappointment?

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

I re-watched the Bills/Bears game the other day and noticed a few nice reps from Kingsley Jonathan against a bad OL.  It was impressive to see a guy off the PS flash a bit in his limited opportunities.  He was activated because Boogie Basham was injured and there was basically no drop off between an undrafted DE who bounced between PS’s and a 2nd round draft pick.

 

In my opinion, the selection of Boogie Basham pick is looking very underwhelming. I’m pretty sure the idea that like Rosseau, the idea was to give him a “redshirt” season to learn from vets like Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison to get him ready to contribute in year 2.  The idea was good but the execution was poor.  
 

But after 1 season, Basham was not ready to contribute or to start and the team ended up sinking major assets for another DE in Von Miller.  

I’m kind of wondering why they selected Basham from the start.  Pre-draft one of the things that made him appealing was his ability to be a hybrid DE/DT.  He was supposed to be “pro-ready” and not a project like Rosseau. Yet the Bills had him drop a bunch of weight to be a faster edge rusher which never was his forte.  Essentially making him a project DE.  
 

The returns of the 2nd draft pick is a rotational player who gives you the same production as a replacement level player.  

I guess there’s a chance he can improve a little bit like AJ Epinesa, but when you have street free agents like Shaq Lawson or undrafted practice squad players like Jonathan outplaying you, it’s hard to feel optimistic that a jump is coming in year 3.

To answer your main question, I would say that I am underwhelmed by Basham, but I wouldn't just give up on him, which I'm sure many people on this board want to do.

 

I'm of the belief that players need to develop instead of expecting instant gratification, like many fans here do. Let's remember that this is Basham's second year in the league, so he may not be fully there yet.

 

Yes, it does look bad when a player like Kingsley Jonathan comes on the scene from out of nowhere and makes an immediate impression to fans, and that is a very bad look for Basham.

 

I think that we just have to be patient with certain players. Which is probably unrealistic, because there is almost no patience on this board.

Also, look at Epenesa. He's not dominant, but he's making more impactful plays in his third year. Who's to say Basham can't do the same thing?

[Donuts and Doritos]

What? No! Basham is great!!!

 

[BADOLBILZ]

42 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

End of the 2nd round DE, I will give him his 3rd year before passing judgment.

 

I'm also so sick of the Creed Humphrey talk. The way people talk around here you'd think we missed out on a game changer. He's just a center. Taking a shot at a pass rusher in the 2nd round and missing out on a center is a defensible move. Ryan Bates could step in at center next year and we wouldn't miss a beat. If Basham can even get to AJ Epenesa's production next year that would arguably be MORE valuable than anything a top tier center offers.

 

 

I definitely agree in principle that an edge rusher is a premium position that is harder to fill than center............and that early picks should be expended on high ceiling players at premium positions.   But I didn't think Basham qualified as one.    Seemed like an over-aged JAG of a prospect to me.   Humphrey was a generational type C prospect IMO..........I've seen lesser ones go in round 1 in certain years(like Eric Wood, for instance).   Not sure if he will pan out but Humphrey was A LOT more likely to succeed than Basham.

 

Even though I had reverence for Humphrey I wasn't broken up about not taking him because, as you said,  centers are pretty easy to find and having a good one might actually be better for your cap situation long term than having the highest paid one.    

 

My focus as the Bills pick approached was LSU WR Terrace Marshall.........he almost made it to the Bills pick.    I would have loved that pick.   I loved the Spencer Brown pick too.   Neither has been as good as I would have hoped thru 2 seasons but they both have more promise than Boogie, IMO.   Hopefully he proves me wrong and finds some intangible way of improving because I just don't think he has the physical talent to live up to the hope.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, ndirish1978 said:

Basham was a waste of a pick, he was supposed to be pro-ready with a relatively low ceiling / high floor. He has been a jag since being drafted. 

He has been a low ceiling/high floor guy, and was ready to contribute almost right away. He’s kind of a slightly worse Shaq Lawson in Shaq’s prime. (I know we hate PFF around here, but their ratings basically confirm my eye test). 
There’s room to criticize whether we should have used 2 high picks on D linemen last year, or whether we should have gone for a higher ceiling project, etc. But we did, which Rousseau as the high risk/high reward guy who’s so far paying dividends, and Basham as the useful rotational piece. He is what he is — a 61st overall pick who will have a good NFL career but never be a star. 

[HOUSE]

I like him 

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

If only Buddy Nix were still here this whole fiasco could’ve been avoided. Buddy would’ve smelled his breath, figured out what Boogie had for lunch and passed. 

[CountDorkula]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

End of the 2nd round DE, I will give him his 3rd year before passing judgment.

 

I'm also so sick of the Creed Humphrey talk. The way people talk around here you'd think we missed out on a game changer. He's just a center. Taking a shot at a pass rusher in the 2nd round and missing out on a center is a defensible move. Ryan Bates could step in at center next year and we wouldn't miss a beat. If Basham can even get to AJ Epenesa's production next year that would arguably be MORE valuable than anything a top tier center offers.

And Basham is just a DE. 
 

your point would hold a little more value if they hadn’t just spent their first picks on the d line in the draft.

 

it was an awful pick for need, value, etc. 

[H2o]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I’m kind of wondering why they selected Basham from the start.  Pre-draft one of the things that made him appealing was his ability to be a hybrid DE/DT.  He was supposed to be “pro-ready” and not a project like Rosseau. Yet the Bills had him drop a bunch of weight to be a faster edge rusher which never was his forte.  Essentially making him a project DE.  
 

The returns of the 2nd draft pick is a rotational player who gives you the same production as a replacement level player.  

I guess there’s a chance he can improve a little bit like AJ Epinesa, but when you have street free agents like Shaq Lawson or undrafted practice squad players like Jonathan outplaying you, it’s hard to feel optimistic that a jump is coming in year 3.

This is exactly what the Bills did with Epenesa as well. They list him at 260lbs now, but I bet he's in the low 250's. When Epenesa was at Iowa he played around 280lbs. That's a lot of functional strength you are taking away from guys having them drop weight in such a manner. Basham, however, is still listed at 280lbs. He's probably only a few lbs under that, somewhere between 270-275lbs. It's not as much as AJE dropped heading into his rookie season without a TC due to Covid. 

[BADOLBILZ]

37 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

I'm no expert but I saw him getting thrown around like a rag doll against Miami.

 

 

Yeah he was exceptionally bad in that Miami game a couple weeks ago.

 

Then he suddenly wasn't practicing..........which seems to imply he was hurt and maybe that was why he was so atrocious.

 

The other day McD said he wasn't going to practice........and then he did practice.........I really don't know what the deal is but the last time he was on the field he was the Bills worst player on D and he was replaced by a practice squad player and the defense then dominated the best rushing team in the league. 

[CountDorkula]

7 minutes ago, H2o said:

This is exactly what the Bills did with Epenesa as well. They list him at 260lbs now, but I bet he's in the low 250's. When Epenesa was at Iowa he played around 280lbs. That's a lot of functional strength you are taking away from guys having them drop weight in such a manner. Basham, however, is still listed at 280lbs. He's probably only a few lbs under that, somewhere between 270-275lbs. It's not as much as AJE dropped heading into his rookie season without a TC due to Covid. 

That seems really dumb then to be honest.  draft players and force them to fit your mold, instead of using what they are and do best. 
 

I just can’t picture of the bills doing that, but what do I know?

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

Except the way they’re building the defense of line of quantity over quality is not sustainable. They don’t have a true difference maker on that D line. 

 

Quality, what about Von?.  Now Groot is borderline elite.   They bought one and drafted one.  This method is sustainable as long as you can keep drafting one every couple of years.

 

And the quantity you talk about is above average.  Settle, Jones, Lawson, are all Beane tinkering and adjusting.  Epenesa and Boogie are draft attempts that at least occupy previously expensive roster spots.  

 

As for sustainability, you need to keep the process going.  First try and keep these guys together.  And second you need to keep taking DL if they are BPA every couple of years.

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

And Basham is just a DE. 
 

your point would hold a little more value if they hadn’t just spent their first picks on the d line in the draft.

 

it was an awful pick for need, value, etc. 

 

Yeah he's JUST a player at the most important position on defense. I don't care about need in the draft but DE was absolutely a big need last year. We had Hughes and Addison on their last legs and only one young player in the pipeline.

 

It's not like he's been outright bad this year, he just hasn't made a huge impact. He's played 40% of defensive snaps. In that limited play time he has 2 sacks, 18 tackles, 5 QB hits, an interception, and a fumble recovery. I worry about his ceiling given his age but he'll get his 2nd full offseason of development and we'll see what happens. Even rotational DEs are taking up quite a bit of cap space these days. Keeping that pipeline full of young talent on rookie contracts is imperative.

[HOUSE]

Wait a minute, he was drafted in 2021....

Way to soon....

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

And Basham is just a DE. 
 

your point would hold a little more value if they hadn’t just spent their first picks on the d line in the draft.

 

it was an awful pick for need, value, etc. 

 

 

No, DE is a more premium position than C in the NFL..........this is reality.      Good centers play a vital role but it's about supply and demand.    A lot of OL can be good centers..........and just being good is plenty for that position.    HOW good your edge and island players are is really how games are broken open so that's why they get paid the big bucks.

 

Basham just wasn't a very good edge rushing prospect though, IMO.    He was more of a mid-round base DE type prospect to me........and at that point I'd almost rather wait and take a late round flyer on a more athletic type.     

[The Frankish Reich]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Basham just wasn't a very good edge rushing prospect though, IMO.    He was more of a mid-round base DE type prospect to me........and at that point I'd almost rather wait and take a late round flyer on a more athletic type.

Right. Epemesa in 2020 and Rousseau the next year were the projectable/star potential guys. Basham was a cheaper (at the time) Shaq. 

[bigK14094]

Last night on the Thursday night game, I saw a lb for Tenn named Basham....I wonder if they are related....Just askin....

[whorlnut]

43 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Troubling stance?  You're insane.  Having a dominant defensive line should be a top priority.  Above, dare I say, even the offensive line.

 

With Von we had a dominant defensive line, the best since Bruce was here.  We still have a very good defensive line and that is due to Beane realizing how important it is, adding and adjusting to it.  Boogie was an attempt at the additions/adjustments.

 

People here don't talk about this improved defensive line much because it doesn't fit the vocal minority's anti-Beane view.  Instead you see threads isolating one particular aspect to fit their mindset.

Where did I say anything about anti-Beane?  Nowhere. You made that up. My point is that he’s pumped a ton of resources into the defensive line and has mostly patched together an oline. Protecting Allen is the top priority. I’d hardly call that “insane”. 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Seoulofstone said:

 That’s fair, despite you being OP you didn’t mention Creed. For me, invoking the non-pick of Creed is an unfair metric in Boogies evaluation IMO.

 

 So Boogie has played over 20 games in the best part of two years. He’s on a rookie contract. He’s flashed occasionally but underwhelmed lacking consistency in play and production albeit as DE3. Like AJE last year -who now has 7.5 sacks. 
 

As Joe Marino says his problem is that he stayed at Wake Forest a long time and as an older prospect we should expect a more immediate development. 
 

 I would love to be MORE impressed by his development.
 

But he hadn’t washed out of the league, done anything weird. shown a lack of effort, injury issues. Personally, I’m not hating the pick, just hoping for more.

 

But it’s not an egregious misuse of pick 61.

 

 

It’s not an egregious pick but like you said, it’s not unreasonable to think that the pick was a disappointment and that we should be seeing better returns

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

41 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

To answer your main question, I would say that I am underwhelmed by Basham, but I wouldn't just give up on him, which I'm sure many people on this board want to do.

 

I'm of the belief that players need to develop instead of expecting instant gratification, like many fans here do. Let's remember that this is Basham's second year in the league, so he may not be fully there yet.

 

Yes, it does look bad when a player like Kingsley Jonathan comes on the scene from out of nowhere and makes an immediate impression to fans, and that is a very bad look for Basham.

 

I think that we just have to be patient with certain players. Which is probably unrealistic, because there is almost no patience on this board.

Also, look at Epenesa. He's not dominant, but he's making more impactful plays in his third year. Who's to say Basham can't do the same thing?

Perfectly said. Give Basham some time. 
 

Also, it’s tough to flash consistently with the rotation and depth we have on the D-line.

[Bob in STL]

5 pages of complaints about a 2nd year player in 2 hours.   

 

Hindsight is 20-20.