Continuing yards after catch (YAC) mystery

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Disagree - KC and Cinci are in the top 5 YAC and Mahomes/Burrow are perfectly capable of throwing a ball 15-20 downfield. So why do they rank so high in YAC ? 

 

Because the Bills scheme uses Allen's range to force opponents to cover the entire field. 

9 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

True, but a 1 yard pass has a higher chance of being completed and a lower chance of being a turnover than a 10 yard pass. That is the allure. Same yards gained, less risk.

 

It's much easier to cover a 1 yard throw, especially if your rep as a QB is lacking arm strength. 

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Part of the problem is that the Bills haven’t really have much of a screen game.  I’m not exactly sure why as it should favor their offensive line but the few screens they have called usually result in little yardage.  I can’t remember the exact number but I believe Mahomes led the league in shorter passes yet also led the league in passing yards.  

 

I also think part is Josh as a passer.  He’s more of an off-schedule thrower at QB rather than a timing passer. Also I think ball placement has been an issue at times.
 

Then you have WR’s like Diggs who is a great route runner but not a burner, Davis who can get open deep but doesn’t have a great route tree, and the rest of the WR’s

This. If you're not running screens, you're going to be dead last in this category. Screens start out as negative passing yardage plays but are designed to get 15-20 positive yards. Do enough of them, and you're going to look good in the YAC rankings. 

[Seventeen]

17 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Because the Bills scheme uses Allen's range to force opponents to cover the entire field. 

 

It's much easier to cover a 1 yard throw, especially if your rep as a QB is lacking arm strength. 

 

Maybe partially but I'm thinking it's a combination of that, lack of screen game, and Mahomes/Burrow's targets are just better (other than Diggs). 

[BuffaloRebound]

Definitely a play design thing.  Watch other NFL games and you’ll see a lot of quick throws at or behind the line of scrimmage.  I guess when you have a QB that can so easily gain those same types of yards with his legs, Bills don’t see the need to draw up those types of plays.  Davis and McKenzie could definitely execute those plays though.  I think at the beginning of his career, Daboll let Josh be Josh.  Now I think Josh is a mature enough QB to dink and dunk you down the field if that’s what defense is giving us.  

[SoCal Deek]

The answer is obvious. The majority of YAC yards come as a result of crossing routes over the middle. For whatever reason, the Bills offense simply doesn’t feature that route tree, with the exception of the occasional Diggs catch, after which he tends to give himself up, reverse field, or go backwards. 

[billvernsays]

As well as screens as previously mentioned, I don’t know why we dont try to get a screen game going with Hines and Cook.
 

It would be an added element teams would have to be concerned about. If it’s the QB spy that causes the issues in our screen game we need to doctor the play up a bit but it would lead to even greater yards.
 

Please Dorsey add it to our game. I’d love for us to be able to get the 60-90 easy screen yards Mahomes gets every week. 

[HappyDays]

The simplest answer is the correct one - we have no pass catchers that are YAC specialists. If you have Deebo Samuel, Tyreek Hill, etc., you design plays to get your YAC specialist the ball in space and let them run. We don't bother with those types of plays because we don't have the right personnel. Our explosive plays are Allen throwing the ball 15+ yards past the LOS or taking off himself.

 

As for screens, defenses always have their eyes in the backfield and on Allen in particular when they play us and they're spreading the defense out. That makes it a lot more difficult to fool the defense long enough for the screen to be successful. If we ever get lucky and call a screen into a man blitz it would be a huge play but that's not how defenses are playing us.

 

Maybe Cook can be the YAC guy for us. We haven't made it a point to get him involved as a pass catcher yet. If we unleash that part of our offense in the playoffs it will be a huge advantage as something defenses aren't prepared for.

[LabattBlue]

3 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

It's crazy to me that the Bills pass catchers continue to rank so low on yards after catch.  It clearly isn't slowing the 12-3 offense down too much, I'm just not sure how to explain it.  We have an elite QB and solid receivers.  The Bills' offense struggled with YAC last season and I remember Josh said it was a point of emphasis for him this last off-season when he was working with Jordan Palmer, working on ball placement to allow his pass catchers to increase their YAC.  

 

To provide some context, the Chiefs are 1st in YAC, the Bills are 24th.  Austin Ekeler is 1st in YAC, Kelce is 2nd, Jefferson is 3rd.  Hill and Waddle are 7th and 8t.  Diggs is 23rd, Singletary is 60th, Knox is 99th, and Gabe Davis is 133rd in YAC.  Is it just the style of the offense we've been running, the types of routes being run, or how Josh is getting the ball in there?   Do the Bills have more sideline / out cutting routes than is typical?   Has anyone noticed some tendencies of the Bills' offense that can explain it?   For whatever reason, improved YAC hasn't happened this year.

 

The offense is still getting the job done and this isn't a post to be critical of the Bills offense.  As long as Josh and Co. keep stacking wins I don't care how they do it.  It's more of a technical question about how the Bills 7th ranked passing offense can also be 24th in YAC?  It seems a bit of an anomaly.

Is this YAC average per reception, or total YAC for the season?

[billvernsays]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

The simplest answer is the correct one - we have no pass catchers that are YAC specialists. If you have Deebo Samuel, Tyreek Hill, etc., you design plays to get your YAC specialist the ball in space and let them run. We don't bother with those types of plays because we don't have the right personnel. Our explosive plays are Allen throwing the ball 15+ yards past the LOS or taking off himself.

 

As for screens, defenses always have their eyes in the backfield and on Allen in particular when they play us and they're spreading the defense out. That makes it a lot more difficult to fool the defense long enough for the screen to be successful. If we ever get lucky and call a screen into a man blitz it would be a huge play but that's not how defenses are playing us.

 

Maybe Cook can be the YAC guy for us. We haven't made it a point to get him involved as a pass catcher yet. If we unleash that part of our offense in the playoffs it will be a huge advantage as something defenses aren't prepared for.

I’ve heard this used as a valid reason before but couldn’t we use this to our advantage? Example: run a fake QB counter to the right which should pull the Spy in that direction as we set up and throw a screen to the other side? 

[SoCal Deek]

Why all the focus on screens? I’m betting that the Dolphins lead the league in YAC, and the vast majority of those yards aren’t coming from screen passes. The Bills route tree doesn’t feature either crossing routes or rub routes. Both of those are where you really pile up YAC. 

[NoSaint]

25 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Definitely a play design thing.  Watch other NFL games and you’ll see a lot of quick throws at or behind the line of scrimmage.  I guess when you have a QB that can so easily gain those same types of yards with his legs, Bills don’t see the need to draw up those types of plays.  Davis and McKenzie could definitely execute those plays though.  I think at the beginning of his career, Daboll let Josh be Josh.  Now I think Josh is a mature enough QB to dink and dunk you down the field if that’s what defense is giving us.  

I think you skipped the most obvious recipient of that pass: Hines

 

McKenzie is an erratic target, Davis isn’t quick twitch or a congested catch guy currently… getting the ball to Hines and even cook on some wheel routes out of the backfield or slants/crosses from the edge would be great. Think of guys like Reggie bush operating on the edge and often drawing a LB in coverage and then just having a corner or safety to beat for a big gain 

7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Why all the focus on screens? I’m betting that the Dolphins lead the league in YAC, and the vast majority of those yards aren’t coming from screen passes. The Bills route tree doesn’t feature either crossing routes or rub routes. Both of those are where you really pile up YAC. 

our route tree doesn’t really feature the skill set of tyreek or waddle though either. Many of us were banging the drum all off-season for another perimeter player. 

[Boatdrinks]

23 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The answer is obvious. The majority of YAC yards come as a result of crossing routes over the middle. For whatever reason, the Bills offense simply doesn’t feature that route tree, with the exception of the occasional Diggs catch, after which he tends to give himself up, reverse field, or go backwards. 

This appears to be the case. Odd, as McKenzies best game by far as a Bill was @ NE last season. He was a feature in that game plan running crossing patterns all day. You’d think the Bills would do this more regularly but it’s not a part of their offense in general. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Disagree - KC and Cinci are in the top 5 YAC and Mahomes/Burrow are perfectly capable of throwing a ball 15-20 downfield. So why do they rank so high in YAC ? 

 

It's the players they're throwing to. Kelce and Chase are both YAC specialists. The Chiefs have made it a point especially in recent

weeks to get McKinnon involved as a pass catcher. The only player we have that has shown flashes of that ability is Cook.

[Inigo Montoya]

This Cincy game is one of the most important of the regular season.  I wonder if Dorsey has been working on these wheel route / screens in practice getting ready to uncork them in a game where the offense is going to have to score 30+ to win?

 

 

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Why all the focus on screens? I’m betting that the Dolphins lead the league in YAC, and the vast majority of those yards aren’t coming from screen passes. The Bills route tree doesn’t feature either crossing routes or rub routes. Both of those are where you really pile up YAC. 

 

Here is the thing... the 2020 Bills used crossing routes more than almost anyone. Not sure what has happened to them since but intermediate crossers were like our go to play that season. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Playcalling doesn't ask for a lot of plays like drags and shallow crossers that provide a lot of YAC potential. It's mostly posts and corner routes. Plus, our screen game STINKS. 

 

But part of this is also the way defenses play us. I see us run a lot of crossers against Miami because they still play man against us. Most defenses play zone against us so it's harder to mix those in. If the Bills ever want YAC to be a bigger part of this offense they need to make it a point to draft or sign a WR that can catch the ball in a window and then immediately sprint away from everyone. Easier said then done but they haven't actually tried.

[Einstein's Dog]

34 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Definitely a play design thing.  Watch other NFL games and you’ll see a lot of quick throws at or behind the line of scrimmage.  I guess when you have a QB that can so easily gain those same types of yards with his legs, Bills don’t see the need to draw up those types of plays.  Davis and McKenzie could definitely execute those plays though.  I think at the beginning of his career, Daboll let Josh be Josh.  Now I think Josh is a mature enough QB to dink and dunk you down the field if that’s what defense is giving us.  

They Tried!!!  It hasn't worked - the swing passes to Singletary and Cook along with the crossers to McKenzie all are off.  From Josh putting too much air under it, to changing and putting it right on them - only to have them drop it.

 

They came in with the plan to incorporate this into the offense (from trying for McKissic to drafting Cook) and it hasn't materialized the way we hoped.  Now in the stretch run I think they are considering converting back.   When the 5 yards is needed there will be more lasers to Beas than there will be 3 yd crossers to McKenzie.  

 

[Nextmanup]

3 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Part of the problem is that the Bills haven’t really have much of a screen game.  I’m not exactly sure why as it should favor their offensive line but the few screens they have called usually result in little yardage.  I can’t remember the exact number but I believe Mahomes led the league in shorter passes yet also led the league in passing yards.  

 

I also think part is Josh as a passer.  He’s more of an off-schedule thrower at QB rather than a timing passer. Also I think ball placement has been an issue at times.
 

Then you have WR’s like Diggs who is a great route runner but not a burner, Davis who can get open deep but doesn’t have a great route tree, and the rest of the WR’s

The way Josh throws is a BIG part of it.  He tends to look around until he finds someone standing there saying "Throw me the ball, I'm open" and then he guns the thing into that window, but the receiver is starting from a dead stop with his back to the defense.

 

Hard to to turn that into a big YAC situation.

 

We also never throw crossing routes that are intended to hit the receiver while in motion with a flow to the play.

 

On top of all that, Diggs isn't the fastest guy out there.

 

It's not really a mystery to me; getting a speed burner absolute STUD No. 2 WR would be the first thing I would do this off-season.

 

Then I'd set about completely re-inventing the O line.

 

 

 

[brianthomas]

the screen game has been an issue for this offense since day 1 of Josh being the QB.

At 1st it seemed like an arm issue, where Josh had difficulty with the trajectory & speed of the screen passes themselves, where they'd routinely get blown up or the blocking would be messed up.

As time has gone on there has been an improvement, like last season there was a conscious effort to integrate more screens into our gameplan.

This year they're non-existent. You have problems with pass blocking? Run some screens. You want some easy YAC yards? Run some screens.

Its been a pet peeve of mine for the past few years. Suppose it ties in with what plagues the offense sometimes as well, where we dont take enough of the easy underneath stuff.

[Einstein's Dog]

9 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

This Cincy game is one of the most important of the regular season.  I wonder if Dorsey has been working on these wheel route / screens in practice getting ready to uncork them in a game where the offense is going to have to score 30+ to win?

 

 

I'm hoping they have plays devised for both that 3 man front they put on KC is accounted for.

 

Also need to be ready to counter this spy on Josh stuff.  Thats where I hope the kinks of when Josh goes to one side and pulls the spy with him, a swing pass to Cook on the other side could really pay off.