Frazier & McD's defensive strategies a potential postseason liability

[Joe Ferguson]

20 hours ago, Bangarang said:

That’s our identity. That’s who we’ve been since McD and Frazier walked into the building and to their credit it’s worked every year.
 

I don’t think an extra LB solves our tackling problem last night. 

It didn't work each year. Bills lost playoff games the last two years because of McD and Frazier defense.

[LABILLBACKER]

We've exited the playoffs 3 straight years because of defensive failures. I don't feel anymore confident this year than when we blew a 16-0 lead in Houston. McF will never change their structure.  Too stubborn. 

[Tanoros]

20 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

He's old, unwilling to adjust.

Our current defensive scheme has become the go to scheme to slow down the high powered offenses. I’m sure McDermott has a hand to play with that, but Frazier is the DC, and the Bills have been a top 10 defense every year with Frazier. Not only does his D play well, other teams have adopted concepts from his D.

What is your reason for saying the game is passing him by? 13 seconds? It’s goes without saying having as many injuries as we have had on defense this year is going to cause issues, yet the defense has still looked good even with the injuries. 

[ajmac]

As much as I would love to be dominant in all areas, I just want them to keep winning. 
 

Yes, tackling needs to improve, play calling needs to improve, hell…we all need to improve everything we do too each day! They are finding ways to win and that’s good.

 

Football and life are tough, and especially tough to get WINS all the time. Let’s give this team and coaches a break. 
 

I applaud their resilience and ability to GET IT DONE ✅ 

 

Go Bills!!!

[Dopey]

20 hours ago, Toyo321 said:

It's great to be 11-3 and honestly if it were not for some really bad defensive mistakes this year,  we surely would be 12-2 or 13-1 at this point.

 

I said this last year and now it is a concern.  I believe that Frazier's and McD's reluctance to go away from the nickel D and zone coverage, and their adaptability is going to hurt us this year in the playoffs.

 

1) Our D-Line got annihilated last night by Miami.  And it's not the only time this year it's happened too.

2) Milano had a horrible game.  Not being able to contain to the outside on run plays killed us in this game.

3) The poor LB and DB tackling has become a major issue.

3) Lack of talk on the field, safeties and the LB's cost us with opposition putting points on the board again last night on big passing plays.

4) The D has not looked good on too many occasions, like last night, and this has happened numerous times this season.

 

Teams that have lit us up this year passing against our D, 300+ yards.     Vikes, Browns, Pitt, KC

Teams that have lit us up this year rushing against our D, 100+ yards       Ravens, Packers, Jets, Vikes, Phins

 

Frazier has lost his edge when it comes to preparing and executing game plans against other teams this year.

This team is so set on this Nickel scheme that I don't believe this year our D will be able to be relied upon in the postseason, especially without Von & Micah.

 

Plus I see Dorsey as a real handicap this year going into the postseason. 

That even makes the D's performance more important this year, than last year. 

Our D needs to evolve as we go to the playoffs this year.  If not we are screwed.

We are only going to go as far as our D is going to take us this year. 

JA17 is a like having Ace in the hole when playing poker.  But your Ace is not always going to be there for every game.  Especially in the postseason.

 

I hope I am wrong,  but if we play D as inconsistently as we did last night we are in trouble.

 

Like I said in another post, the upcoming Cincinnati game is going to be a real test where we stack up this year going into the postseason.

 

We will see after the Cinci game where we truly are.

 

You make it seem like the defense sucks in your examples. Context helps:

Browns: only 80 rushing yds against, Chub had 19 yds rushing on 14 carries and we won. Come on, man.

Pitt: only 54 rushing yds and gave up 3 points. Come on, man.

KC: only 68 yds rushing and we held them to 20 points and we won. Come on, man.

Vikes: Can't have them all. They are 11-3 for a reason. 

 

Ravens: only 134 yds passing allowed and 2 ints. by our defense and we won. Come on, man.

G.B.: only 190 passing yds allowed and an int. and we won. Come on, man.

Jets: Last game was 76 yds. rushing against and we won. Come on, man.

Dolphins: 1st game we gave up only 41 yds rushing and 171 yds passing. Come on, man. 2nd game only 217 yds passing and we won. Come on, man.

 

To me, Josh Allen reverting back to "Red Zone Interception guy" is more of a potential problem to me. The offense has had it's moments of sucking too. It's a long season and every game is it's own. As shown by your selective stats.

 

 

[nosejob]

14 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I have been very vocal about my displeasure with Fraizer. I feel like our talent on defense far exceeds our performance. I can’t stand the way Fraizer calls a defense and I hope that he gets a HC job. The constant refusal to come out of nickel regardless of situation is as frustrating as it is dumb. The fact that our LBs can run and cover as a strength is even more of a reason to play a 3rd LB. Of all the teams in the NFL that can cover a guy without a NB, we are at the top. That stubbornness is why we can’t stop the run and that’s why physical teams make us pay. The Bears are going to pound the ball down our throats. This is not the time to mess around. The Bills better put Klein on the field and take our chances with a conventional base defense. We should be able to beat the Bears but if you let them run it on you, they can steal one.

Playing 4-3 allows for more success at....TFLs, stopping the run vs. depending on tackling on the 2nd level against guards and tackles...and depending on T.J. to handle bigger backs with a head of steam, which has hurt us. It also allows a spy on mobile QBs and the ability to disguise rotating LB blitzes. Giving up 200 yds. a game is gonna bite us in the ass, because in the playoffs it's one and done. Klein made the game saving stop in Detroit and like Milano is a good blitzer.

 

On another note I don't understand not even trying to play press and knocking the timing out of receivers within the five yds. it's allowed. Playing 10 yds. deep in zone

and expecting to cover a Hill or Waddle etc. is mind boggling since press will help the front four and help generate hurried or errant throws. I get the merits of Nickel and zone, but not being able to do both does not make an elite Defense.

 

All that being said, we need new aggressive blood on D.

[nosejob]

1 hour ago, biggerdaddynj said:

Watching these soft Frazier defenses who also can’t tackle makes me miss the 4-3s with Pettine and Schwartz.  Statistically ranked high and I recall most people at TBD liked what they accomplished.

 

And, like a lot of others at TBD have said well before me, I’d like to see how Edmunds plays in a 4-3, too bad we might have to watch him wreak havoc playing in a more skillset friendly scheme on another team next year with the salary he’ll get.

Lead the league in sacks IIRC.

[PaattMaann]

Tackling is one of the major problems with our defense, but its been a problem for four years now. Its not the scheme, and I don't even think its the coaching. By the time you get to the NFL you are either a sure tackler or you aren't. Yes of course there are things you can have a player work on, technique/angle/level but you don't go from being a poor tackler to a good one once your in the NFL. 

 

This seasons worst tacklers for us: Hamlin, Dane, Milano, and our entire d-line except for Ed. So really, the only good tacklers are Edmunds, Oliver, Taron and a healthy Poyer (his tackling numbers aren't great but hes had that fugged elbow for 2 months now and its obviously effecting him). 

 

I think the only solution to the tackling issue is replacing poor tacklers with better ones. We aren't replacing Milano or most people on our d-line, so in a way we are going to have to live with poo tackling by swarming to the football and get more hats to the ball. Thats my only possible suggestion to a solution.

 

This defense is a top 5 defense in the NFL and McD/Fraziers scheme has had success for 20 years (longer going back to McD learning under Jim Johnson). This isn't a scheme thing. Its an execution thing, and that's mostly on the horses not the jockey. 

[Toyo321]

34 minutes ago, Dopey said:

 

You make it seem like the defense sucks in your examples. Context helps:

Browns: only 80 rushing yds against, Chub had 19 yds rushing on 14 carries and we won. Come on, man.

Pitt: only 54 rushing yds and gave up 3 points. Come on, man.

KC: only 68 yds rushing and we held them to 20 points and we won. Come on, man.

Vikes: Can't have them all. They are 11-3 for a reason. 

 

Ravens: only 134 yds passing allowed and 2 ints. by our defense and we won. Come on, man.

G.B.: only 190 passing yds allowed and an int. and we won. Come on, man.

Jets: Last game was 76 yds. rushing against and we won. Come on, man.

Dolphins: 1st game we gave up only 41 yds rushing and 171 yds passing. Come on, man. 2nd game only 217 yds passing and we won. Come on, man.

 

To me, Josh Allen reverting back to "Red Zone Interception guy" is more of a potential problem to me. The offense has had it's moments of sucking too. It's a long season and every game is it's own. As shown by your selective stats.

 

 

I only stated games and that had bad performances pertaining to either passing and or rushing.  My god they are just stats and they are available for everyone to see if they want.

Get real, this is just supplying some game data stats to the thread.   These were not cumulative game stats.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Toyo321

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Cray51 said:

The lack of tackling was obvious last night - I do wonder if the cold had anything to do with it.

 

With that being said, Frazier's defense is strong when executed correctly.  Look at Miami's two big plays yesterday: 

1) Mostert breaks 4-5 tackles to turn a 4 yard gain to 60+

2) Clear miscoverage by the secondary on Waddle's touchdown.  The secondary was talking to one another, so they knew the coverage needed, but simply didnt execute.

 

Those two plays are 130 yards for the Dolphins.

 

The team NEEDS to execute better

Don't buy it. There were several other plays against the fins where we tackled poorly. We missed a ton of tackles against the Jets.  Coaches are required to teach their players proper tackling techniques. As far as dropping 7 or 8 into coverage, that's a personal strategy that McF will never relinquish. 

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, Toyo321 said:

I only stated games and that had bad performances pertaining to either passing and or rushing.  My god they are just stats and they are available for everyone to see if they want.

Get real, this is just supplying some game data stats to the thread.   These were not cumulative game stats.

I understand what you did. All I did was provide context. Which was needed to show these stats were very misleading. Prime example: you said we got lit up for over 300 yds passing to the Steelers. We won 38-3 and again, held them to 54 yds rushing. A dominating game by our defense, yet you include it in your example of getting "lit" for over 300 yds passing. Teams will pass a lot when they are getting blown out. Pickett threw 52 passes to get 327 yds AND...1 int, no tds.  That's not lighting us up. Again, context is important when trying to make a point. I could go over the rest, but I think you get my point now.

[colin]

I'm the first guy w his hand up clamoring about our schematic issues on d.  Namely, we defend mostly the whole pitch most of the time, so we don't tend to take a single thing away from a team.  That means that when we get beat we get beat by the one thing by the opponent, a d we don't tend to make big adjustments.

 

Also, since we play so deep w so much zone/combo coverage, we are gonna miss more tackles than most teams simply because we have more guys in place to make them.  I'm not saying tackling isn't a concern, but we are simply in a position to attempt more, so we will miss more 

 

The big issue I have w the d is we just play a bit too honest sometime.  When we shoot the right gaps and dial up packages we tend to smoke teams (hence the great d stats) but we get a bit vanilla at times and when a single mistake (like poyer in that waddle td) is made it looks just awful.

 

Vs Miami, we got gashed w run fit mistakes but we stopped scores mostly I'm the first half.  In the second half we just stank and let them get up on us, but special teams really stank, not to mention bad O.

 

So looking at how the game actually happened, it's not like Miami just didn't run but shoulda, but got yards but not points running.

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, nosejob said:

Playing 4-3 allows for more success at....TFLs, stopping the run vs. depending on tackling on the 2nd level against guards and tackles...and depending on T.J. to handle bigger backs with a head of steam, which has hurt us. It also allows a spy on mobile QBs and the ability to disguise rotating LB blitzes. Giving up 200 yds. a game is gonna bite us in the ass, because in the playoffs it's one and done. Klein made the game saving stop in Detroit and like Milano is a good blitzer.

 

On another note I don't understand not even trying to play press and knocking the timing out of receivers within the five yds. it's allowed. Playing 10 yds. deep in zone

and expecting to cover a Hill or Waddle etc. is mind boggling since press will help the front four and help generate hurried or errant throws. I get the merits of Nickel and zone, but not being able to do both does not make an elite Defense.

 

All that being said, we need new aggressive blood on D.

You want Tre playing press on Hill? 

Bills up 21-19 with 2:35 left in the 3rd qt. Tre plays press on Hill and gets toasted for a TD. Miami now leads 26-21. You should check it out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Dopey

[BananaB]

Our biggest problem is tackling. Hard to blame that on strategy

[mjt328]

When they have the all right pieces in place, this defense is Top 5 in the NFL easy.  When 1-2 guys are injured, the coaches can usually scheme around the loss and still put together good defensive performances.  When multiple starters are constantly going in-and-out of the lineup, there are going to be break-downs.  Plain and simple.  You can't expect the coaching staff to make massive systematic changes at this point.

• The pride of Sean McDermott/Leslie Frazier has always been the secondary.  It has been uncharacteristically average this season.  One major reason has been the loss of Micah Hyde.  It wasn't until Thanksgiving that Tre White got on the field, and this was probably the first game we saw flashes of the old All-Pro version.  The other corner spot has been mostly handled by rookies.  Even Jordan Poyer missed a couple games.
• Linebacker play has been absolutely essential to this defense.  Our roughest stretch of the season came when Tremaine Edmunds and Matt Milano were missing time.  At one point we were without both at the same time. 
• Then you have the D-Line, which operates best with 4 guys getting pressure.  They looked the part early in the season.  Then the injury bug bit that unit.  Greg Rousseau, Ed Oliver and Jordan Phillips have missed significant time.  And of course the ACL tear for Von Miller.  

Unfortunately, I don't think we can count on the defensive side to carry us in the playoffs.  At some point, we are going to get into a shoot-out (or a few).  If the Bills are going to the Super Bowl, this offense needs to be consistently strong and mistake-free.

[Buffalo Ballin]

I'll address the biggest elephant in the room:

 

No Von Miller.

[Marvin]

We don't do 2 of the 2 basics well: blocking and tackling.  Currently, our defence seems to be getting healthier. So I hope that the rust comes off by playoff time and we execute tackling better.  I don't know what to do about the blocking.

[Mark Vader]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:46 PM, Toyo321 said:

Not even close to the way they gutted our D running the ball.

 

 

 

Looking at this I am amazed that Mostert only had 17 carries.

 

The Dolphins let us off the hook at the start of the second quarter when they had 2nd and Goal and they ran two consecutive passing plays.

 

Did McDaniel out-think himself?

[Boatdrinks]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

I'll address the biggest elephant in the room:

 

No Von Miller.

Why? He will not return this year and everyone knows that. They’ve never had him in the playoffs and don’t now. You can’t lean on what you’ve never had to carry you. They will have to scheme up pressure , no different than any of their previous playoff experiences. 

[Buffalo Ballin]

28 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Why? He will not return this year and everyone knows that. They’ve never had him in the playoffs and don’t now. You can’t lean on what you’ve never had to carry you. They will have to scheme up pressure , no different than any of their previous playoff experiences. 

We understand that. We get it.

 

However, regardless of schemes, we still need the players to actually do it. We can draw all the schemes and designs all we want. When the players are not good enough to actually do what we want then all those schemes do not matter.