Frazier & McD's defensive strategies a potential postseason liability

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

4 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

49ers and Chargers showed how to stop the Dolphins offense. But nope. Frasier sticks with nickel. Either he's stupid or stubborn.

supposedly, Frazier showed those teams. I believe it was reported that the bills did press man and dropped backers a lot in their loss to the dolphins— which was copied by the 49ers and chargers. 
 

my guess is that we didn’t press as much because our CB’s just couldn’t get clean hits at the line on their receivers. I also think concern at safety probably was an issue, with Hamlin back there. The Niners and Chargers can afford to be more aggressive because they have elite safeties. 

[Beast]

4 hours ago, Toyo321 said:

It's great to be 11-3 and honestly if it were not for some really bad defensive mistakes this year,  we surely would be 12-2 or 13-1 at this point.

I stopped right there.

 

If not for some real bad offensive mistakes this team could be 14-0.

 

See how that goes?

 

This is a team game.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Beast

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

You won’t shut down a good offense, but at least show that you can impose your will at times. 

They did.  They forced PUNTs on the Dolphins offense in the 4th quarter and gave a chance for the offense to redeem itself.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Bangarang said:

That’s our identity. That’s who we’ve been since McD and Frazier walked into the building and to their credit it’s worked every year.
 

I don’t think an extra LB solves our tackling problem last night. 

 

I wish the answer was as simple as put AJ Klein in for Taron Johnson and all problems are solved. He is a bigger body but really the Dolphins last night were not hitting us up the gut they were killing us with outside zone - the idea that Klein a linebacker who as we know is not the best moving laterally - solves that problem is for the birds IMO. Especially as the big Mostart run early it is actually the recovery pace of Johnson as a nickel that saved a touchdown. If that is Klein he doesn't have the speed to find a recovery angle. 

 

In previous years the Bills have had some issues against power run teams getting big bodies on our defenders and just phsyically dominating us. That isn't it this year. For the most part our guys are getting off the blocks. They are getting into positions to make tackles - they are just not executing. 

[RocCityRoller]

The defense was terrible for large stretches of the game, but they knuckled down and got stops in the 4th qtr when we needed them to.

 

3 pts allowed in the 4th quarter when it mattered.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

Got what? That the D sucked yesterday? Great!

 

No question about that for 3 quarters that was a dreadful defensive performance.

 

You do equally have to give them some credit for playing their best in the clutch. After the strip sack of Josh it was absolutely critical that they held the Dolphins to a field goal, and they did. A Miami touchdown there and it is all but a wrap. So they did find some plays when needed. 

 

Overall I agree it was a bad day for the defense. Not just the run game. They blew the coverage on the Waddle touchdown and the two guys who you could argue have been the most consistent players on this D the past two years - Poyer and Milano - both had very rough outings. We got a little bit of pressure around Tua early but struggled to maintain that as the game went on. It was not a good day. 

 

But you have to look at the reasons why. And I think by far the biggest singular factor was lack of execution of our fundamentals. Bad tackling, loss of contain, and a big blown coverage. 

 

There are a lot of people who just stylistically don't like our defense. That is their prerogative. But I think they let that bleed into "the scheme sucks" whenever the defense underperforms (which has done just twice this year btw - yesterday and the Vikings game). They have kept every other offense to or below their season average.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

No question about that for 3 quarters that was a dreadful defensive performance.

 

You do equally have to give them some credit for playing their best in the clutch. After the strip sack of Josh it was absolutely critical that they held the Dolphins to a field goal, and they did. A Miami touchdown there and it is all but a wrap. So they did find some plays when needed. 

 

Overall I agree it was a bad day for the defense. Not just the run game. They blew the coverage on the Waddle touchdown and the two guys who you could argue have been the most consistent players on this D the past two years - Poyer and Milano - both had very rough outings. We got a little bit of pressure around Tua early but struggled to maintain that as the game went on. It was not a good day. 

 

But you have to look at the reasons why. And I think by far the biggest singular factor was lack of execution of our fundamentals. Bad tackling, loss of contain, and a big blown coverage. 

 

There are a lot of people who just stylistically don't like our defense. That is their prerogative. But I think they let that bleed into "the scheme sucks" whenever the defense underperforms (which has done just twice this year btw - yesterday and the Vikings game). They have kept every other offense to or below their season average.

That was really the first game we didn’t look good on defense with most of our core players in there (Milano/edmunds/Hyde)

 

milano had a really tough night he was more than likely playing through an injury.  

[RocCityRoller]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Hyde being out is really showing up in how teams are able to move the ball in the air.

 

Hamlin has been OK to good in most games but he is still a liability in pass coverage. Usually pretty good against the run but not last night.

 

Some notes:

Hamlin had his worst game as a 'starting' pro as I saw it. Really bad in both phases, and I have been impressed with him in general.

 

I noticed that Miami had more success running the ball when Settle was in at 3T for Jones. When D Jones was in, the runs were mostly normal 0-10 yard fare.

 

Gap integrity and sealing edges was terrible all night.

 

Oliver was invisible. He got swallowed up all night.

 

T Johnson stepped up and had his best game of the season. In both aspects.

 

Dane Jackson is bad.

 

Elam played physical, and the refs allowed it. Can't expect that all the time. If he is a physical guy, put him close and jam the WR, or play off and let Elam and let his instincts/game study (which is said to be phenomenal) take over to tatoo guys or break up passes.

 

Poyer and Milano looked injured and slow. Bad angles all night.

 

White looked rusty. He was playing close to the LOS all night, which is fine but you have to make contact with a WR like Hill or Waddle if you are playing close to the LOS to jam/ slow down/ throw off timing. There is no way you can give Hill or Waddle a clean release and back peddle as quickly as Hill or Waddle will run forward. So play close and jam, or play back and not allow a big play. White played close, but refused to initiate contact. If he is uncomfortable making contact within 5 yards, you have to play him back. Simple Xs and Os.

 

Despite all of the this Bills defense made the big stops in the 4th and gave Allen a chance to once again carry the team.

Edited December 19, 2022 by RocCityRoller

[Buffalo Junction]

4 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

49ers and Chargers showed how to stop the Dolphins offense. But nope. Frasier sticks with nickel. Either he's stupid or stubborn.

Those teams basically adapted Frazier’s week 3 gameplan to their personnel. The big differences for the 49ers was they had Bosa while Von was out for us, and they tackled well. The fish also changed up a bit and attacked the perimeter more this game. Unfortunately our guys lost a lot of one on ones and missed out on a few turnover opportunities. 
 

I am kind of curious if they made a poor equipment choice with regards to cleats for the first half as the line play of O & D improved once the snow started falling. 

[MPT]

4 hours ago, Bangarang said:

That’s our identity. That’s who we’ve been since McD and Frazier walked into the building and to their credit it’s worked every year.
 

I don’t think an extra LB solves our tackling problem last night. 

 

Have to push back on this. What's your definition of "worked" if the defense gets blown out in the playoffs two years in a row? Giving up 80 points to the same offense in two games is actually the opposite of "worked."

[RocCityRoller]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Those teams basically adapted Frazier’s week 3 gameplan to their personnel. The big differences for the 49ers was they had Bosa while Von was out for us, and they tackled well. The fish also changed up a bit and attacked the perimeter more this game. Unfortunately our guys lost a lot of one on ones and missed out on a few turnover opportunities. 
 

I am kind of curious if they made a poor equipment choice with regards to cleats for the first half as the line play of O & D improved once the snow started falling. 

It was CB play. I explained why above.

 

That and the front 6-7 gap integrity was terrible.

[Simon]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

You do equally have to give them some credit for playing their best in the clutch. After the strip sack of Josh it was absolutely critical that they held the Dolphins to a field goal, and they did. A Miami touchdown there and it is all but a wrap. So they did find some plays when needed. 

 

3  times in the 4th qrtr when Miami had 3rd and short plays, they chose to throw the ball in every single instance despite the fact that they were averaging 7.5 yds a carry.

I do not see that so much as the defense stepping up as I do the Phish perpetuating a year long propensity to repeatedly outsmart themselves in crunch time.

[Buffalo Junction]

2 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

It was CB play. I explained why above.

 

That and the front 6-7 gap integrity was terrible.

I’ll read it in a bit. We posted at the same time. 😜 

[DrPJax]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

Even with the Hyde/Von injuries, the defense has far too much talent & investment to have such poor performances against good offenses in big games.  
 

I don’t care that they can shut down the Jets or Patriots.. Cool, fantastic. 
 

You won’t shut down a good offense, but at least show that you can impose your will at times. 

I agree with your point about shutting down mediocre teams with mediocre Qb’s. However , you can’t just ignore the loss of an all pro safety like Hyde. He makes plays whereas now we are left with Hamlin. We made Tua , who had two prior terrible games, never had a good game in cold weather , look very good as we got torched on two long Tds and several other chunk passing plays. The miscommunication was never so obvious as when Poyer was caught looking at the possibility of run even with Edmunds calling it out and Hamlin was out of position after looking at the replay. Again , with Hyde that prob never happens. Hamlin continues to take poor pursuit angles as well.  He is talented , but he is not Hyde. He is still learning. 
 

Also it’s hard to just ignore the loss of Von, a Hof certainty , 2x SB winner, and our prior sack leading edge. He is not replaceable. Beane didn’t give him 120 mil because he was like Epenesa or Boogie , or Groot right at this moment. Tua was almost never under duress and stood back going thru his reads. He also escaped sacks as we have no edges with enough closing speed to make up for losing Von. He was brought in as a closer for the Chiefs , he had a def effect in that game , and we are now worse off without him. You can't just drop premiere talent and replace it with less experienced , rotating guys who were never  regular starters and expect the defense not to suffer. 29 points to a Tua led offense is proof , esp at home in the snow.
Jones and Settle have been good along with Oliver’s development so that helps offset losing von somewhat and helps against interior runs. But right now without Hyde , without Von, I think we are more vulnerable agaist Qb’s like Mahomes / Jalen Hurts unless Frazier adjusts his scheme and keeps bringing Milano , Edmunds , Johnson, Poyer against Mahomes and  the Chiefs , and considers an extra Lb like Klein against better rushing game plans.like the Pats use. 

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, nosejob said:

And if we don't start playing D like we did against the Jets, we're done. Why we can't be an attacking defense is beyond me. We need a new DC with an aggressive attitude. It's absolutely aggravating. We don't have the talent to play press against Hill and Waddle?....or have the ability to do that when need be? Why can't we send blitzes when we're stuffing the run game on passing downs? We need some new blood on  the Defensive staff. Josh Allen can't be  like P.Manning with no Defense. We're gonna get screwed with this 1990 Defensive approach.

Do people not watch the games?  Lol we blitzed on nearly half the snaps.  Completely different gameplan than the first meeting. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Buffalo Junction]

7 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Some notes:

Hamlin had his worst game as a 'starting' pro as I saw it. Really bad in both phases, and I have been impressed with him in general.

 

I noticed that Miami had more success running the ball when Settle was in at 3T for Jones. When D Jones was in, the runs were mostly normal 0-10 yard fare.

 

Gap integrity and sealing edges was terrible all night.

 

Oliver was invisible. He got swallowed up all night.

 

T Johnson stepped up and had his best game of the season. In both aspects.

 

Dane Jackson is bad.

 

Elam played physical, and the refs allowed it. Can't expect that all the time. If he is a physical guy, put him close and jam the WR, or play off and let Elam and let his instincts/game study (which is said to be phenomenal) take over to tatoo guys or break up passes.

 

Poyer and Milano looked injured and slow. Bad angles all night.

 

White looked rusty. He was playing close to the LOS all night, which is fine but you have to make contact with a WR like Hill or Waddle if you are playing close to the LOS to jam/ slow down/ throw off timing. There is no way you can give Hill or Waddle a clean release and back peddle as quickly as Hill or Waddle will run forward. So play close and jam, or play back and not allow a big play. White played close, but refused to initiate contact. If he is uncomfortable making contact within 5 yards, you have to play him back. Simple Xs and Os.

 

Despite all of the this Bills defense made the big stops in the 4th and gave Allen a chance to once again carry the team.

Agree with most of this. I do wonder about the footing, especially with the first few drives. It seemed like the second and third level defenders played tentative when tackling; choosing to breakdown instead of tackle through ball carriers which allowed Mostert to run through arm tackles. They changed up in the second half and started hitting him low which was more effective. I even commented to a buddy during the game “Damn, it’s like he’s got Vaseline on his jersey.” During the first quarter. 
 

One thing worth considering is that they played pass first through the first half, and had the offense been able to double dip they may not have been forced out of that. Being able to stay in nickel and run 2-deep, quarters, etc without worrying about the run would have been nice. At the end of the day this team was missing two all-pros and a Phin assassin (Phillips) and came out with the win. IDK how the win happens as long as they don’t lose anyone else. 

[Toledo Bill]

27 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Some notes:

Hamlin had his worst game as a 'starting' pro as I saw it. Really bad in both phases, and I have been impressed with him in general.

 

I noticed that Miami had more success running the ball when Settle was in at 3T for Jones. When D Jones was in, the runs were mostly normal 0-10 yard fare.

 

Gap integrity and sealing edges was terrible all night.

 

Oliver was invisible. He got swallowed up all night.

 

T Johnson stepped up and had his best game of the season. In both aspects.

 

Dane Jackson is bad.

 

Elam played physical, and the refs allowed it. Can't expect that all the time. If he is a physical guy, put him close and jam the WR, or play off and let Elam and let his instincts/game study (which is said to be phenomenal) take over to tatoo guys or break up passes.

 

Poyer and Milano looked injured and slow. Bad angles all night.

 

White looked rusty. He was playing close to the LOS all night, which is fine but you have to make contact with a WR like Hill or Waddle if you are playing close to the LOS to jam/ slow down/ throw off timing. There is no way you can give Hill or Waddle a clean release and back peddle as quickly as Hill or Waddle will run forward. So play close and jam, or play back and not allow a big play. White played close, but refused to initiate contact. If he is uncomfortable making contact within 5 yards, you have to play him back. Simple Xs and Os.

 

Despite all of the this Bills defense made the big stops in the 4th and gave Allen a chance to once again carry the team.

Oliver was very disappointing. Don’t know what his issue is. 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

3 straight times in the 4th qrtr when Miami had 3rd and short plays, they chose to throw the ball in every single instance despite the fact that they were averaging 7.5 yds a carry.

I do not see that so much as the defense stepping up as I do the Phish perpetuating a year long propensity to repeatedly outsmart themselves in crunch time.

 

Fair. Albeit the Fish's success on the ground was not really of the bang it up the middle variety. It was mainly outside zone. And third and shorts I can understand not wanting to call plays that have your runner going horizontal to the line of scrimmage for too long. But you are right that to not try a run in any of those scenarios given their success was probably foolhardy. But the Bills can only defend the plays called.

[RocCityRoller]

10 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

3 straight times in the 4th qrtr when Miami had 3rd and short plays, they chose to throw the ball in every single instance despite the fact that they were averaging 7.5 yds a carry.

I do not see that so much as the defense stepping up as I do the Phish perpetuating a year long propensity to repeatedly outsmart themselves in crunch time.

 

So Miami had 3 drives in the 4th that I recall. Punt, FG, Punt. The FG was on a short field after the terrible fumble.

 

1st drive in the 4th (Punt). 3rd and 3 Taron Johnson (who I mentioned as having his best game of the season) defended a pass to Hill. Miami could have run, but let's give credit to Johnson who has had a shaky year. He had an excellent PD on one of those quick hitters Mahomes to Hill killed teams with. (see 0:13 seconds). McDaniels dialed up the 'Andy Reid special' and it failed. Good play by Johnson to diagnose it and stop it. To me that is better defense than a bad call by Miami.

 

2nd drive (FG) - 3rd and 1. Pass to a RB Smythe and T Johnson once again made the play. Agreed with you, dumb decision by Miami. Credit to T Johnson again for making the play.

 

3rd drive (Punt)- After giving up a big play Rousseau had a tackle after 1 yard gain. 2nd play Elam sniffed out a quick pass to Hill -3 yards. Good play rookie!  3rd and 12 is a passing play. It was incomplete to Waddle. (plus a declined penalty).

 

So 2out of 3 could have been runs, agreed. But 3rd and 12, late in the game, is no running situation.

 

Miami clearly wanted to pick on Taron Johnson and failed. Johnson stepped up, as I mentioned, and made big play after big play late in the game.

 

That's how I see it.

 

[billsbackto81]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No it hasn't. 

I usually find your posts on point but I'd like to know why you find him one of the best in the league. Lately his in game adjustments just haven't been there.