I’m starting to get extremely frustrated with Dorsey.

[Perk71]

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

Here’s the thing. I have never been a “fire the OC” guy. I think if you polled fans of 32 NFL teams, and ask them their biggest problem with their team, it would either be the OC or playcalling, two nebulous concepts that usually come down to more of a lack of execution than anything else.

 

All that being said, Dorsey is driving me nuts. I can live with getting away from the run a little bit. Josh is our best offensive weapon and anytime the ball isn’t in his hands, defenses are happy. 
 

What I cannot deal with is a lack of preparedness and what appears to be glaring schematic flaws. 
 

There were two separate occasions on deep shots tonight where Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie were operating within 2 yards of each other. Unless one of those recievers ran the wrong route, there is exactly NO excuse for that. These were not flood concepts or rubs or anything like that. Just two guys running flag routes next to each other.

 

The other thing. Backup OLmen all over the field because of injuries, not his fault. But we go out there and try to catch the defense with cadence with two backups in on the OL? Is that a joke? Of course, Saffold jumped (which is even funnier) but I question the decision making at all.

 

Bottom line is the Bills offense is still really good. Statistically one of the best. But a lot of times, it feels to me that Josh ends games dragging this team to the finish line after mixed results for the first 3 Q’s. And you know, that’s fine. If that’s the story of the 2022 Bills offense, it’s still pretty good. 
 

But to me, I don’t think that’s the sum of our parts. I think that’s selling us short. 
 

As a positive, Knox was infinitely more involved today which was awesome to see and definitely worked. So you know, Dorsey isn’t hopeless. But these are the kind of things that I had hoped would be cleaned up by week 6,

It's his first year. I'm almost positive that you weren't at the top of your said profession at the beginning.  🤷🏼 I know I wasn't, without a doubt...

 

Go Bills!!

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Perk71 said:

It's his first year. I'm almost positive that you weren't at the top of your said profession at the beginning.  🤷🏼 I know I wasn't, without a doubt...

 

Go Bills!!

My performance wasn’t going to affect my team winning the Super Bowl

[Eastport bills]

The overly critical Dorsey evaluation is alive and well on this board. Red zone offense ,4TDS and the winningFG.. Rushing yardage over 150, 9 different receiver including TDS for Hines and Morris and getting Beasley involved and 304 yds. I’m sure any fanbase would sign for that.

[Toyo321]

23 minutes ago, Perk71 said:

It's his first year. I'm almost positive that you weren't at the top of your said profession at the beginning.  🤷🏼 I know I wasn't, without a doubt...

 

Go Bills!!

This is the NFL.  It's a business.  If you don't put the best person in for the job it's the managements fault.

 

You don't win a SB with unqualified coaching personnel.

 

Dorsey =  

[3rdand12]

18 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

The last series made up for a brutal 3rd quarter.  
 

That drive wasn’t just Allen - good combo of well timed runs that were all PIN AND PULL

Thank you Aaron Kromer !

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

My performance wasn’t going to affect my team winning the Super Bowl

The question becomes valid when do not see growth from Ken as much as we might hope.
We see Allen carrying the Team each week.
Its just the fact.
 Thought game planning would have improved a bit more by now.to take Allen of the hook for our run game, when we need the yards.
and yes the pass game looks sketchy at times with patterns never getting open or Josh not seeing wide opens.

 

Who is the pass game coordinator this year ?

 

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

The overly critical Dorsey evaluation is alive and well on this board. Red zone offense ,4TDS and the winningFG.. Rushing yardage over 150, 9 different receiver including TDS for Hines and Morris and getting Beasley involved and 304 yds. I’m sure any fanbase would sign for that.

who is the rushing leader ?

[Eastport bills]

56 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

The question becomes valid when do not see growth from Ken as much as we might hope.
We see Allen carrying the Team each week.
Its just the fact.
 Thought game planning would have improved a bit more by now.to take Allen of the hook for our run game, when we need the yards.
and yes the pass game looks sketchy at times with patterns never getting open or Josh not seeing wide opens.

 

Who is the pass game coordinator this year ?

 

who is the rushing leader ?

Are you familiar with the term , take what the defense is giving you? The runs for Josh that are called in are because the defense is playing a certain way.Certain runs he audibles into because he thinks it’s better than Dorsey’s play. Obviously winning is not your main objective. Remember you’re looking at a revamped O-line, with 2 starters including your center out of the lineup.The last drive was surgical with Motor getting first downs and crossers keeping drives alive. 11 and 3, 5 tough wins in a row including 3 division wins. If you’re looking for perfection, sorry.

[Buffalo Ballin]

How is the Miami Dolphins the better coached and more talented team?

 

We beat them. They're 8-6. We're 11-3.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

How is the Miami Dolphins the better coached and more talented team?

 

We beat them. They're 8-6. We're 11-3.

Josh Allen

[Buffalo Ballin]

Then Miami Dolphins is NOT the more talented and better coached team. Of course, we got Josh Allen. They have Tua.

 

If they were the better squad, they should have beat us last night.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That's probably just the difference between elation(fans) and relief(coaches) when winning a close game that was full of mistakes by the players on your side of the ball.

 

Can Dorsey get better?   Certainly,  he is a rookie play caller and no rookie OC has won a SB since Mike Holmgren with the 49ers in the 1980's(and that team was the defending SB champ already).

 

But early in the game Allen was missing wide open receivers with inaccurate throws and then the receiving corps had their usual up and down game catching the ball..........which is "the usual" because his targets aren't premium talents.........guys like Knox and Davis were mid round picks in part because they weren't good catchers of the football.    Singletary and McKenzie were also hard handed.    

 

The reality is that the offense under Dorsey is more consistently productive against a MUCH harder schedule than what they got from Brian Daboll last season.  

 

I agree with most of this. I think there are some questions with Dorsey but they are understandable given he is a first year OC and the job is a lot harder than fans who play Madden think. He doesn't have a lot of high end talent on offense. He has been given a patchwork of an offensive line and middling receiving weapons after Diggs and Knox - and as you say Knox still has his inconsistent moments as a catcher of the football. Add to that the mini-crisis of confidence Josh seemed to go through for a couple of games there and overall Dorsey has done a good job.

 

The three things I have criticised Dorsey for during the year are:

 

1. Lack of creativity. I think in some games it has been very vanilla. The last couple of weeks have been better in that regard and the two first half touchdowns yesterday - the sprint out and throw to Morris and the clever design to Hines - were progress. Last week we saw end arounds and sweeps back too. All those concepts need to be part of what we do. 

 

2. Under use of Dawson Knox in the pass game. Athletically there is no question in my mind that after Diggs the most talented guy we have and the biggest potential mismatch is Dawson Knox. I know he has had 3 bad drops in the last two games, but of all Bills receivers with more than 10 targets this season he leads the team in catch % at 74%. Again, the last two weeks have been better. 15 targets over the two games. That is right around where he should be IMO. 

 

3. Gets away from quick game. This is the one where I still think there is work to be done. When the offense gets in a rut it seems to me the most common feature is a lacl of quick game. We all know Josh is at his best when he gets in rhythm and when we want to start drives in a run heavy, hard play action, mode he tends to get antsy if things don't immediately open downfield. The weather actually forced some quick game back in during the 4th quarter yesterday and the Bills were better for it.

 

All of that being said, I think calls for Dorsey's head are total overreaction. That rookie OC stat is interesting (and not surprising). We have seen even experienced OCs and QBs take 2 years to really explode. Matt Ryan's MVP year was his second year with Kyle Shanahan (who had multiple years as an OC before that), Aaron Rodgers 1st year with Matt LeFleur was relatively pedestrian in terms of his personal production, his 2nd and 3rd years were MVP seasons. Dorsey (and by extension Josh) are performing pretty well in that context. I hope the improvements we have seen the last couple of weeks continue. I am certainly patient to let them figure it out. Unless Dorsey gets a HC job (which I think is unlikely but not impossible) I see zero reason for him not to be back in 2023. Hopefully he has finally convinced Beane to give him some premium oline talent and some young playmakers on the perimeter.

Edited December 19, 2022 by GunnerBill

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with most of this. I think there are some questions with Dorsey but they are understandable given he is a first year OC and the job is a lot harder than fans who play Madden think. He doesn't have a lot of high end talent on offense. He has been given a patchwork of an offensive line and middling receiving weapons after Diggs and Knox - and as you say Knox still has his inconsistent moments as a catcher of the football. Add to that the mini-crisis of confidence Josh seemed to go through for a couple of games there and overall Dorsey has done a good job.

 

The three things I have criticised Dorsey for during the year are:

 

1. Lack of creativity. I think in some games it has been very vanilla. The last couple of weeks have been better in that regard and the two first half touchdowns yesterday - the sprint out and throw to Morris and the clever design to Hines - were progress. Last week we saw end arounds and sweeps back too. All those concepts need to be part of what we do. 

 

2. Under use of Dawson Knox in the pass game. Athletically there is no question in my mind that after Diggs the most talented guy we have and the biggest potential mismatch is Dawson Knox. I know he has had 3 bad drops in the last two games, but of all Bills receivers with more than 10 targets this season he leads the team in catch % at 74%. Again, the last two weeks have been better. 15 targets over the two games. That is right around where he should be IMO. 

 

3. Gets away from quick game. This is the one where I still think there is work to be done. When the offense gets in a rut it seems to me the most common feature is a lacl of quick game. We all know Josh is at his best when he gets in rhythm and when we want to start drives in a run heavy, hard play action, mode he tends to get antsy if things don't immediately open downfield. The weather actually forced some quick game back in during the 4th quarter yesterday and the Bills were better for it.

 

All of that being said, I think calls for Dorsey's head are total overreaction. That rookie OC stat is interesting (and not surprising). We have seen even experienced OCs and QBs take 2 years to really explode. Matt Ryan's MVP year was his second year with Kyle Shanahan (who had multiple years as an OC before that), Aaron Rodgers 1st year with Matt LeFleur was relatively pedestrian in terms of his personal production, his 2nd and 3rd years were MVP seasons. Dorsey (and my extension Josh) are performing pretty well in that context. I hope the improvements we have seen the last couple of weeks continue. I am certainly patient to let them figure it out. Unless Dorsey gets a HC job (which I think is unlikely but not impossible) I see zero reason for him not to be back in 2023. Hopefully he has finally convinced Beane to give him some premium oline talent and some young playmakers on the perimeter.

 

 

1. I have no doubt the lack of creativity is a response by the Bills to Daboll trying to fool the opposition with practically every call.    That is fun when it's working and then stretches like the road to 7-6 last year happen and a defensive minded HC starts questioning why everything has to be so complicated when you have Superman at QB.   

 

2. Agree.   They gotta' use Knox heavily in the passing game down the stretch.   He's not the most graceful or coordinated TE and takes some terrible hits/falls so I've considered that maybe they've limited some of his usage to keep him fresh down the stretch........just as I think they've limited some of the quick game to Diggs and Davis because of the beating they saw the WR corps take in the 2020 season and how diminished they were come playoff time.

 

3. But also agree on the quick game.   They have been reduced to a station to station offense.   It's not where they SHOULD be at this point of JA's career........but it's where they are and every game is critical now.   I think that bye and #1 seed loom large.   Allen being the best player in the NFL is still capable of putting up 30 point performances...........it just takes 4 quarters of highly physical football from JA to get there now.

 

[Bruffalo]

The incredibly poor offensive line play makes it really impossible to judge anything.  It's screwing up the rhythm because Allen has to whip out magic to make basic plays work. If he wasn't superhuman, this team would be dead in the water.

 

Without Morse, we have four out of the five lineman who are at replacement level. 

 

Spencer Brown, for as big and athletic as he is, is constantly getting beat.  The guard play has been atrocious, Saffold might be the worst guy on the team if it wasn't for Bobby Hart.

 

I'm not going to judge Dorsey too harshly until we get some at least average guys graded in the O-Line.

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

How is the Miami Dolphins the better coached and more talented team?

 

We beat them. They're 8-6. We're 11-3.

We beat them with a third string center that can only snap the ball to a qb in the shotgun. Gotta think that effected the gameplan.  
 

Miami absolutely implodes when they’re missing an offensive lineman. We would’ve torched them if morse didn’t go down or if bates was available.  Dolphins got a gift against us twice this year…we played a whole half + with a third string center in the first matchup too 

8 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

The incredibly poor offensive line play makes it really impossible to judge anything.  It's screwing up the rhythm because Allen has to whip out magic to make basic plays work. If he wasn't superhuman, this team would be dead in the water.

 

Without Morse, we have four out of the five lineman who are at replacement level. 

 

Spencer Brown, for as big and athletic as he is, is constantly getting beat.  The guard play has been atrocious, Saffold might be the worst guy on the team if it wasn't for Bobby Hart.

 

I'm not going to judge Dorsey too harshly until we get some at least average guys graded in the O-Line.

 

 

Bates will help when he returns.  Van roten is bad when he plays his normal position but when he has to bump over to center he is pretty close to if not the worst offensive lineman in the league. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1. I have no doubt the lack of creativity is a response by the Bills to Daboll trying to fool the opposition with practically every call.    That is fun when it's working and then stretches like the road to 7-6 last year happen and a defensive minded HC starts questioning why everything has to be so complicated when you have Superman at QB.   

 

2. Agree.   They gotta' use Knox heavily in the passing game down the stretch.   He's not the most graceful or coordinated TE and takes some terrible hits/falls so I've considered that maybe they've limited some of his usage to keep him fresh down the stretch........just as I think they've limited some of the quick game to Diggs and Davis because of the beating they saw the WR corps take in the 2020 season and how diminished they were come playoff time.

 

3. But also agree on the quick game.   They have been reduced to a station to station offense.   It's not where they SHOULD be at this point of JA's career........but it's where they are and every game is critical now.   I think that bye and #1 seed loom large.   Allen being the best player in the NFL is still capable of putting up 30 point performances...........it just takes 4 quarters of highly physical football from JA to get there now.

 

I guess IRT the bolded, I would hope they are not preserving Diggs/Davis to the detriment of JA.

 

I don't want to see a physically bruised and beaten down JA come the postseason.

[BADOLBILZ]

24 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I guess IRT the bolded, I would hope they are not preserving Diggs/Davis to the detriment of JA.

 

I don't want to see a physically bruised and beaten down JA come the postseason.

 

In 2020 it was either/or.......they had a top 3 WR corps.........they had a choice then..........either you run all those quick hitters/comebacks and let Diggs and Beasley get beaten up or Allen has to run around and take a beating.    They chose to protect Allen because they could do that and still be dynamic.

 

With this middling 2022 receiving corps........it's not either/or,  IMO.

 

They don't have the personnel to NOT have to use Allen like a running back in 2022.   I expect them to work the quick game even more going down the stretch because it makes them more efficient offensively...........but Allen is still going to be running the ball 6-10 times every game either way.    I don't think there is any changing that.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[bobobonators]

10 hours ago, GolfandBills said:

And yet teams for the most part can’t stop it 

That would be like Chiefs fans complaining that their success is bc of Mahomes and Kelce. Well yeh, duh. Still cant stop them. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

just wondering, who would people choose to replace dorsey?

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

just wondering, who would people choose to replace dorsey?

The common answer will likely be Frank Reich imo

[ganesh]

33 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The common answer will likely be Frank Reich imo

At this moment, I think Reich is better as an OC than Dorsey.  But there is a personal Dorsey Allen connection that cannot be ignored.  Also, do you really want your Franchise QB to go through three OC in three seasons?  Beane and McDermott don't believe in that instability.