I’m starting to get extremely frustrated with Dorsey.

[DapperCam]

33 minutes ago, BRH said:

 

And that's the OFFENSE putting up 32/36, too.  This wasn't a "fake" 30-point output helped by a couple of defensive or ST touchdowns.

 

Our average drive start was our 21 yard line.  And the offense put up a thirty-burger.

 

I hope some of you are beginning to realize just how ridiculous you sound.  But I doubt it.

I think the point is that the offense isn’t really very cohesive and Allen is making big plays off script. That works until it doesn’t, and we shouldn’t rely on that every week. We are like the smart kid in school that doesn’t try but keeps getting an A- anyway. Fans can see we are capable of an A+.

Edited December 20, 2022 by DapperCam

[3rdand12]

22 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

 

Buffalo has an embarrassment of riches in the offensive coaching staff

 

Mike Shula - A graduate of the University of Alabama, he was the school's head football coach from 2003 to 2006. He was the offensive coordinator for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers from 1996 to 1999, the Carolina Panthers from 2013 to 2017, and the New York Giants from 2018 to 2019.

 

Joe Brady - He previously served as the offensive coordinator for the Carolina Panthers from 2020 to 2021. He was a passing game coordinator and wide receiver coach for the LSU Tigers during the 2019 season, winning the Broyles Award for the best assistant coach in college football

 

Aaron Kromer - New Orleans Saints (2012) Interim head coach, Chicago Bears (2013–2014) Offensive coordinator

 

Rob Boras - UNLV (2001–2003) Offensive coordinator & offensive line coach, St. Louis/Los Angeles Rams (2015–2016) Offensive coordinator

 

All have been OC or higher in the NFL and D1 football. Not trying to bust your balls, but this was a topic before the season.

 

Too many cooks in the kitchen?

There are 4 former NFL OC on the staff. I'm sure Shula/ Boras/ Kromer or Brady wouldlove to be OC for Josh Allen

 

Ironic two of the names are Shula and Brady!

Wow ! I am ashamed i had forgotten the staffing on OFF besides my homey fav Kromer !

 Thanks for the reminder.  I am pro Frank but yes indeed, Bills have more than enough well qualified folks coaching on that side of the ball.
RocCityRoller , thank you for correcting me

[3rdand12]

21 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

Honestly, I have watched some Cover1, All 22, and Cosell breakdowns where the routes seem either uninspired - everyone run a fly route, forcing Allen to hold the ball and expecting our WRs to simply to win those 1:1 situations, OR where there seems to be confusion where receivers end up in the same place allowing defenders to converge in coverage.

 

As with most things the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Some of that is probably player execution and miscommunication. The flip side is that Dorsey is in his first year as an OC and some of his plays may be less than inspired. Part of that job is that you also have to coach up your players to execute the plays you draw up properly, and all the in-game communication and coordination that has to happen. A lot of the more nuanced routes happen in the slot, and we have seen them try a variety of players at that position over the course of the season.

 

To be fair, they have also used different players in the slot by design - like when they move Diggs to the slot for a more favorable matchup.

 

It was and is a big step for Dorsey to make from the QB room to the booth as OC and I think some of the struggles are just the growing pains that come with making that transition. There are a few others on the Bills staff with OC experience so it is not like Dorsey has to shoulder the whole burden this year alone. I am hoping he is getting plenty of support and is open to their input as he learns the ropes.

 

I have heard plenty of times that being an NFL OC is the hardest job out there - I can believe it.

 

 

 

 

 

Very well stated.
 I did read a bit about WRs not being crisp and or  a tad off on timing with breaking and or getting to the spot expected.

 Thats something WR, TE Coaches can and should work on. 

 Because you have taken the time to watch all 22 etc like many of you folks do. I think the answers might lie there if you have the time.

 and gosh yes I have sympathy, even when i am super pissed at Dorsey  LOL

Thanks for taking the time for a great note WideNine , as always

13 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

If winning is the main objective, what are you so negative about? Maybe this is the way Josh wants to play with the limitations on the O-line and the rbs we have. Right now we need Josh to make good decisions, limit turnovers and play better defense. Enjoy the ride and stop being an efficiency expert.

Im NOT SO NEGATEIVE DAMMIT

 

LOL 😊

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

The breakdown from Kurt Warner from last game that was super detailed in terms of what Josh saw/reads/play design, etc was interesting...More than once Warner brought up that he "didn't like the spacing" by Bills players or there were certain details that were just "off" that would make the plays more effective or easier plays for Allen...whether that be a guy not pressing a route far enough upfield to influence a defender to go with him and open up the underneath route, guys not running at a proper angle, guys releasing to the wrong side for the play(inside versus outside), guys chipping on a play where it caused the defender to actually be in the way of an open guy coming across the field, etc...these things were rarely an issue under Daboll, and that is something that really worried me about Dorsey...I didn't think the overall output of the offense would be different, I was worried more about the little details within plays that can cause them to be much harder or much easier in terms of whether a play succeeds or hoe open guys are.  Seems too often we are causing the plays to be much harder than they need to be and making Allen be better than he should have to be for them to succeed because we aren't doing the small details within the plays as well as we should be, or we are simply not understanding why those details matter which would be even worse.

 

That's the difference between us and KC on offense...Mahomes is great, no doubt, but he is given the easy button way way more often than Allen is on plays where he doesn't need to be great for them to succeed.  Sometimes with Allen it seems the plays only work because Allen is able to be Superman and overcome bad play design or bad execution within the play itself.

To parse my opinion a bit more
I have felt during the Whole season that we should have developed a run game early to balance Josh. Especially with Kromers arrival

 Sure plenty of factors go into that. But we have seen Josh playing Hero Ball for quite a while to overcome what Offense was lacking. Going back to second half of Packers game.

 I just felt Dorsey was not simplifying routes  and check downs (maybe thats Allen again  and putting some more focus on a a balanced  Off from week to week  that Defs should respect.

  enough from me I think 

 Go Bills

 Yes Bills are getting it done somehow and I love it !
 

Edited December 21, 2022 by 3rdand12

[Einstein's Dog]

3 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

To parse my opinion a bit more
I have felt during the Whole season that we should have developed a run game early to balance Josh. Especially with Kromers arrival

 Sure plenty of factors go into that. But we have seen Josh playing Hero Ball for quite a while to overcome what Offense was lacking. Going back to second half of Packers game.

 I just felt Dorsey was not simplifying routes  and check downs (maybe thats Allen again  and putting some more focus on a a balanced  Off from week to week  that Defs should respect.

  enough from me I think 

 Go Bills

 Yes Bills are getting it done somehow and I love it !
 

The problem with establishing the run early is it takes us away from passing early - the Bills strength.  And if the Bills hit on the early mid-level passing the game has the potential of being a blowout win for the Bills.  The Bills have the advantage vs almost all other teams on the 20 yard passing game.

 

To the OP, every week for every OC can be frustrating if you are doing a post-game hindsight analysis versus perfection.  You point out the Saffold penalty but how quickly you forget when Knox went over center against the Jets and how that turned out.  You see the possibilities for improvement for Dorsey but what about McDaniel and his passing on third and one.  Or Hoodie and his last play call against the Raiders.

People here have revisionist history in their praise for Daboll, he had posts like this after every game too.

[FireChans]

56 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The problem with establishing the run early is it takes us away from passing early - the Bills strength.  And if the Bills hit on the early mid-level passing the game has the potential of being a blowout win for the Bills.  The Bills have the advantage vs almost all other teams on the 20 yard passing game.

 

To the OP, every week for every OC can be frustrating if you are doing a post-game hindsight analysis versus perfection.  You point out the Saffold penalty but how quickly you forget when Knox went over center against the Jets and how that turned out.  You see the possibilities for improvement for Dorsey but what about McDaniel and his passing on third and one.  Or Hoodie and his last play call against the Raiders.

People here have revisionist history in their praise for Daboll, he had posts like this after every game too.

When Knox got jumped on in the Jets game, did we have two backup OLers on the field?

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The problem with establishing the run early is it takes us away from passing early - the Bills strength.  And if the Bills hit on the early mid-level passing the game has the potential of being a blowout win for the Bills.  The Bills have the advantage vs almost all other teams on the 20 yard passing game.

 

To the OP, every week for every OC can be frustrating if you are doing a post-game hindsight analysis versus perfection.  You point out the Saffold penalty but how quickly you forget when Knox went over center against the Jets and how that turned out.  You see the possibilities for improvement for Dorsey but what about McDaniel and his passing on third and one.  Or Hoodie and his last play call against the Raiders.

People here have revisionist history in their praise for Daboll, he had posts like this after every game too.

A sidenote one of the things that did happen last game (and in a couple of games) the bills were able to run that ball on that last drive to seal it.....to me that is the absolute time you have to be able to run the ball.   WIth a lead...just choking the life out of the other team where they either just waive the white flag or make a mistake.

[BRH]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

A sidenote one of the things that did happen last game (and in a couple of games) the bills were able to run that ball on that last drive to seal it.....to me that is the absolute time you have to be able to run the ball.   WIth a lead...just choking the life out of the other team where they either just waive the white flag or make a mistake.

There is absolutely nothing like a soul-crushing 6 or 7 minute drive to end a football game while the other team’s QB sits helplessly on the sidelines and their coach starts throwing stuff in frustration. That was masterful.  Reminded me of the Kelly years. And as Josh said after the game…those were Ken Dorsey’s calls, and the team just executed.  

[Beck Water]

17 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

My biggest problem is what Kurt Warner says...spacing is an issue or the details are "off" in the play design and/or execution which make the plays much harder to succeed and make Allen have to execute at a consistently high level, which he can, but there isn't anything wrong with giving him an "Easy Button" like Mahomes gets in KC so often from Reid.  It's great Allen can be Superman, but he shouldn't have to do it so 3 or 4 times a drive...nothing wrong with giving him the "Easy Button" and letting him be Clark Kent sometimes too.

 

Effectively to me, Allen has to work harder/do more under Dorsey to get the same results he did under Daboll and that is due to the Bills not being as effective in terms of play design and/or execution within plays to create openings and/or separation by scheme. Dorsey's scheme is relying far more on individual wins than Daboll's did which made people open by design more often.

 

I think there are elements of truth to this, but there is also a valid point (also one made by Warner) that at times, guys are in fact open and Allen isn't taking the "Easy" button he is offered.

[Rochesterfan]

18 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

My biggest problem is what Kurt Warner says...spacing is an issue or the details are "off" in the play design and/or execution which make the plays much harder to succeed and make Allen have to execute at a consistently high level, which he can, but there isn't anything wrong with giving him an "Easy Button" like Mahomes gets in KC so often from Reid.  It's great Allen can be Superman, but he shouldn't have to do it so 3 or 4 times a drive...nothing wrong with giving him the "Easy Button" and letting him be Clark Kent sometimes too.

 

Effectively to me, Allen has to work harder/do more under Dorsey to get the same results he did under Daboll and that is due to the Bills not being as effective in terms of play design and/or execution within plays to create openings and/or separation by scheme. Dorsey's scheme is relying far more on individual wins than Daboll's did which made people open by design more often.

 

Look - I get what you are saying, but I also think that Kurt is basing everything on how his OC ran plays and is very much behind the times on modern off schedule offenses.

 

Kurt would be 100% correct if we were running a SF style timing offense where the WRs have a precise route to run and the QB hits 3 steps and throws.  
 

The Bills offense is not that - they run a lot of option routes where the WRs read leverage and adjust the routes.  They also do a lot of “scramble drill” routes where if Josh moves you break off a route and adjust.  These just seem to be concepts that Warner is just not used to in an offensive style as he was a pocket timing passer.

 

These things lead to occasionally 2 WRs in a similar area as both saw similar leverage or saw Josh start to flow and are working their way over to open areas to present themselves in his sight line.  They are the same things that Dabol did - I just think Dabol left more for Josh to handle - less chipping and TE help and those guys just go into the route and Dorsey as a former QB is trying to help Josh, but it puts less people into the initial route.

 

I also think Josh has a bunch of “Easy Button” throws available, but he does not take them as much as some other QBs.  I actually think he has as many or more easy throws available than Mahomes, but both of those guys look to push when they see a single coverage rather than take the 1-2 yard completion.  I think that is more on Josh than on Dorsey.

 

I will be interested to see as I believe a new Cover 1 film room was coming out - how their views compare to Warners.  They have watched the Bills offense evolve and have spent time talking with the players so I think it will be an interesting contrast as I think they are better versed in the concepts this team is running versus Warner that really looks at the QB position from how he played and was taught.

 

 

[Luka]

My main frustration with the offense has been what it has always been. We do not utilize 2 tight end sets enough. We have Knox and paid him big money, we have Morris who has looked like, if given a chance, he could be a contributor to this offense as well. 

 

My opinion is, this personel package gives you a lot of run/pass flexibility. Keep both inline, you either have a numbers advantage in the run game or you can play action pass from it, even get max protect to give Diggs a chance downfield if you need to generate a big play. It also sets up going fast, say after a 3rd and short conversion and gives you an advantage by not allowing a defense to substitute. Split Morris and Knox out in these situations and now you're 4 wide in shotgun with Singletary/Cook on the field which bodes well with the defense in it's short yardage package. 

 

It's odd to me, even under Daboll, we spent a whole lot of time trying to generate rushing yardage with different formations, packages, trick plays, etc. The passing game however, the only real creativity is Josh being Josh. Watching Reid continue to scheme in the passing game even with a guy like Mahommes makes me wonder why between Shula, Joe Brady and Dorsey, they can't come up with a couple unique plays to give the passing game a boost when it falters like it did in the beginning of the 3rd quarter. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Luka

[EmotionallyUnstable]

One thing I notice Dorsey likes to do is reduce WR splits and motion WRs in On running downs.

 

I hate this. I absolutely hate this. It just muddies the waters. It isn’t eye candy like a jet action, and it isn’t to check coverage. 
 

Idk what the idea here is, but I am yet to see some sort of PA off of it.